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Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Come again?
I thought you will point out all the deserted and abandoned churches in UK!
Btw, many old ones are bought over and now are becoming mosques!
Go figure!:)
Lol,don’t believe the hype,oh actually you do.
Saudi?
Far from it! Not even close!
I already told you - whatever you mean by that word "Utopia"- it doesn't exist on earth!

I agree,it doesn’t exist.
You can strive (try) but it is difficult to thrive (achieve it) due to arrogance and faulty nature of the humans!
Path is laid out - does not mean path is collectively taken!

Interesting,why follow a path to nowhere?.
Obviously things have changed!
But changed in the right direction or wrong?
You prefer empty churches while men are changing and marrying men, men wanting to become women and men playing, competing and fighting against women in women's sports?
Your tone sounds like you are happy at your so-called "change"!

Actually none of the above is agreeable to me but freedom comes at a cost,I would say though that womens private spaces should be biological women only,there are only two sex’s,no surgery can change that.
No, it is not. The core teaching of Quran is timeless but you can only get to the core when you are not deflected off the surface due to your own impurities of your mind! Impurities such as your arrogance (thinking you know better), your pride that stops you from looking into a new path, your delusions (thinking you are already on the right track), your greed, lust, unwillingness to sacrifice anything even for your own salvation, lack of devotion, lack of trust in the words, etc.

I disagree,”what your right hand possesses” goes against western culture,women are no longer chattel or war booty,slavery was abolished here in 1807,late but we got there,it’s still in your unevolving book.

I tend to trust something verifiable,to plot my own path and not the path of a medaeval war lord.
What is the purpose of life? Watch this convert - he used to be an Atheist - it is an old video- he tried hard to explain - his explanation is not perfect but he was on the right track!
here is the link...

Life’s about choices,he’s free to choose.

What sorts of wrongs? As I said earlier - humans fight for many reasons including but not limited to - love, family, power, freedom, self preservations, sacrifice, pride, racial differences, cultural differences & against oppressions. The biggest reason many wars are fought is "land"!
While it may look like "religion" is to be blamed - in reality it is simply the "differences" that lead humans to wars!
And religious claims to that land.
Why one track mind? Why the word "Islamic" pops up when talking about these folks? It is just a group of people who happened to be Muslims who were evicted! The only way you will understand what it means if you are ever evicted from your own home!

The way I understand it is the Ottoman Empire lost in ww1,France got Syria and Britain got the rest.

Around 1920 Amin al Husayni the grand Mufti of Jerusalem and leader of the Palestinian nationalists,he was a soldier in the Ottoman army and wasn’t happy about losing,you should check him out,claimed to be related to your prophet.
Occupying foreign lands for your own benefit, manipulation of the locals, trickeries and then betrayal - (assuming from you name) must be a proud thing to be a descendant out of such a noble land! :crossmark:Buzzer! Wrong! :crossmark:
Yes very proud,it wasn’t all bad,we did end slavery.
"Occupied land" has everything to do with religion? You have it backwards! Separated due to religious affiliations does not automatically puts the blame on the religions!
Occupied land & "fault of religion" - are two separate things! You get that right?
Fighting because of skin color does not imply skin color at fault! Blame the racist! Put the blame where it belongs!
Stop blaming religions!

Hang on a moment,didn’t Umar take Jerusalem from the Christian?
Occam's razor!
Simplest explanation is usually the right explanation!
2+2=4 regardless of "humans" trying to make it 0, 3 or 5.
If you want impartial opinion based on science, context & reason - you have something now to ask questions to! ;)
Celebrate it! It is a significant milestone!
How many bananas on a bunch of grapes?.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Forget what’s legal for a moment. Do you think these behaviours are harmles? Should they be encouraged, or should we try to control our urges when they are likely to cause suffering to ourselves or others?

It’s human nature and if it’s between consenting adults taking necessary precautions,I don’t see the problem,it’s human nature after all,it’s how we got here.

We should of course control our urges,I have been to the south of France and the beach is full of near naked beautiful women,it’s not an issue,I don’t give it a second thought,however it would be an issue for some cultures or religions that don’t have those freedoms.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
It’s human nature and if it’s between consenting adults taking necessary precautions,I don’t see the problem,it’s human nature after all,it’s how we got here..
We have good reason to believe, that children are affected emotionally by their home environment.
eg. disharmony in parental relationships

Domestic violence has not been eliminated in secular society .. nor has misogyny.
The noun misogynist can be used for a woman-hating person.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
We have good reason to believe, that children are affected emotionally by their home environment.
eg. disharmony in parental relationships
Domestic violence has not been eliminated in secular society .. nor has misogyny.

Misogyny has definitely not been eliminated in Islam

Men are in charge of women1 by [right of] what Allāh has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allāh would have them guard.2 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance3 - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them [lightly].4 But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allāh is ever Exalted and Grand.

How dare they lol,sadly misogyny is present in secular societies too although it’s not taught from a book.

The noun misogynist can be used for a woman-hating person.

Well done,see above.
 

BrightShadow

Active Member
Lol,don’t believe the hype,oh actually you do.

By the time you stop pressing the snooze button and actually wake up on a Sunday morning and decide to go to the church - there may not be one left. You will be lucky if you have an "online church" option!
Is that the "change" you were talking about?:confused::eek:
By the way, I am doubtful "online" church meets the Biblical requirement. "Gathering" in person is expected by all Christians! That is one way they can get some "change" out of you. Pun intended!:D
Maybe that is the "change" (£) you were talking about - that is good for you or your church!

Interesting,why follow a path to nowhere?.

It is not a path to nowhere! It is a path to perfection!
Even Jesus said - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [Mark 10-18]


Actually none of the above is agreeable to me but freedom comes at a cost,I would say though that womens private spaces should be biological women only,there are only two sex’s,no surgery can change that.


Freedom from what? You believe religion was/is holding the world back?
You are not free - my friend! Now you are slave to the powerful propaganda machine! You are forced fed gay pornographic images every time you turn the TV on or try to watch a movie. The entire network is trying to normalize everything you know in your heart as immoral deeds! You don't really have freedom of speech - you can't utter a word against such behavior without backlash. You have to allow your daughter or son in school forced fed graphic traditional and deviated sexual practices before (you believe) they are ready for such knowledge.
So, you did not eradicate slavery. It just took a different face! If you want to own a house - most likely you take a loan with high interest rates and become a slave for the banking industry. You work to pay the interest!
Yes! Great change! Change for betterment!;)


I disagree,”what your right hand possesses” goes against western culture,women are no longer chattel or war booty,slavery was abolished here in 1807,late but we got there,it’s still in your unevolving book.
Plz pay special attention to what I have to say -becuz it could easily be misunderstood!
If I say - "Islam is a progressive religion" then many Muslims will rightfully disagree with that notion - because God said - "...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. ....."[Quran 5:3]
So, "progressive" is a wrong word. There is no room to change or adjust any of the core teachings of the Quran!
Core teachings such as..
The Oneness of God (Monotheism), the uniqueness of God (that there is nothing like him), the belief in the prophets, belief in the angels, belief in the Quran, belief in the day of the Judgment and belief in the entire faith system regarding the 5 pillars of Islam.
There is no room for any change on any of the basic and main concepts. But that doesn't mean Quran did not show the "path to perfection" or "eradication" of some other things that were integral and unavoidable part of the society the Quran was delivered in. The main thing that comes to mind is - the things you mentioned such as "slavery", "women's right" etc.

If wearing leather, wearing tattoos, drinking alcohol, riding a motorcycle etc. are immoral acts - it is expected that a prophet cannot just walk into a biker's bar and declare all of those to be banned from the get-go. No one will listen to him! He has to ban them gradually!
So, in certain aspects - the pathway was shown how to adopt and eradicate certain things from the society and in time slavery in its purest form - has been eradicated, and women are no longer treated as personal property!

So, in certain way - like a butterfly coming out of its pupal case - Islam has progressively help abandoned certain things that were integral part of that time frame but were not meant to be during our times frame!

So, Islam did not endorse these practices - Islam help mitigate it until its self eradication!

As for the women's right - you may have already heard from ChatGPT that - "Quran introduced groundbreaking changes by granting women's rights like inheritance, property ownership and education - that was revolutionary for that time. It bought justice in marriage through mutual consent, fairness and the right to seek divorce. Most importantly God sees man and women as spiritually equal; emphasizing their equal dignity and worth in his eyes".


I tend to trust something verifiable,to plot my own path and not the path of a medaeval war lord.

And "something verifiable" is your Bible with thousands of hole in it? Mohammad just showed were the Christians went astray. If you don't want to find your way back - then remain lost in the wilderness.
When someone is trying to rescue you - you don't call him a warlord! If you don't want to be rescued - you say - "thank you but I am fine!";)


And religious claims to that land.

Well! If glass full of water is on the table and the table is on the floor - you don't say glass is on the floor! You certainly don't say - water is on the floor!
No need to go deep - people find a reason to fight due to any "differences"!



The way I understand it is the Ottoman Empire lost in ww1,France got Syria and Britain got the rest.

Yes! You are forgetting the promises and betrayal! This is where you need to take a deeper look!


Yes very proud,it wasn’t all bad,we did end slavery.

Yeah! You tied up the dove upside down - beat it until it was almost dead but you did not eat it! You released it because opposition was getting hot on your case!


Hang on a moment,didn’t Umar take Jerusalem from the Christian?

Let us go back in time to the caveman era and see who really have the claim to that land!
Shall we?
Folks or their children are still alive who were evicted. This is fresh! These folks are different than folks who lose a war to someone and yet allowed to remain where they were. These folks were evicted and are continued to be oppressed!


How many bananas on a bunch of grapes?.

Do you use a Smart phone (iPhone)? Do you ask questions to Siri?
AI is coming to a phone near you - and it will come with a slapping hand! Whenever you ask a stupid question - it will slap you!
Kudos to the Australian singer for asking the right questions to show the world - it is time to think where you stand and where the truth stands!
Here is the link again if someone reading missed it and does not understand what I am talking about!


 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
By the time you stop pressing the snooze button and actually wake up on a Sunday morning and decide to go to the church - there may not be one left. You will be lucky if you have an "online church" option!
Is that the "change" you were talking about?:confused::eek:
By the way, I am doubtful "online" church meets the Biblical requirement. "Gathering" in person is expected by all Christians! That is one way they can get some "change" out of you. Pun intended!:D
Maybe that is the "change" (£) you were talking about - that is good for you or your church!

We have some very beautiful old churches where I live,there are some modern ones to but the older ones are better in architecture,I believe there are online churches but I don’t go to church physically or online.
It is not a path to nowhere! It is a path to perfection!
Even Jesus said - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. [Mark 10-18]

How do you know,did someone telly you?
Freedom from what? You believe religion was/is holding the world back?
You are not free - my friend! Now you are slave to the powerful propaganda machine! You are forced fed gay pornographic images every time you turn the TV on or try to watch a movie. The entire network is trying to normalize everything you know in your heart as immoral deeds! You don't really have freedom of speech - you can't utter a word against such behavior without backlash. You have to allow your daughter or son in school forced fed graphic traditional and deviated sexual practices before (you believe) they are ready for such knowledge.

Afaik there’s a remote control for the TV,nobody forces you to watch and you control the mouse on a computer,I’m not sure about the school curriculum these days.
So, you did not eradicate slavery. It just took a different face! If you want to own a house - most likely you take a loan with high interest rates and become a slave for the banking industry. You work to pay the interest!
Yes! Great change! Change for betterment!;)

Would it any different under a caliphate?.
Plz pay special attention to what I have to say -becuz it could easily be misunderstood!
If I say - "Islam is a progressive religion" then many Muslims will rightfully disagree with that notion - because God said - "...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. ....."[Quran 5:3]
So, "progressive" is a wrong word. There is no room to change or adjust any of the core teachings of the Quran!

It’s medaeval and sexist.
Core teachings such as..
The Oneness of God (Monotheism), the uniqueness of God (that there is nothing like him), the belief in the prophets, belief in the angels, belief in the Quran, belief in the day of the Judgment and belief in the entire faith system regarding the 5 pillars of Islam.
There is no room for any change on any of the basic and main concepts. But that doesn't mean Quran did not show the "path to perfection" or "eradication" of some other things that were integral and unavoidable part of the society the Quran was delivered in. The main thing that comes to mind is - the things you mentioned such as "slavery", "women's right" etc.

There we are,what your right hand possesses,this is alien to me,here women have strived for equal rights,they are close but more work to do in pay.
If wearing leather, wearing tattoos, drinking alcohol, riding a motorcycle etc. are immoral acts - it is expected that a prophet cannot just walk into a biker's bar and declare all of those to be banned from the get-go. No one will listen to him! He has to ban them gradually!
So, in certain aspects - the pathway was shown how to adopt and eradicate certain things from the society and in time slavery in its purest form - has been eradicated, and women are no longer treated as personal property!

Sounds like apologetics to me.
So, in certain way - like a butterfly coming out of its pupal case - Islam has progressively help abandoned certain things that were integral part of that time frame but were not meant to be during our times frame!

So, Islam did not endorse these practices - Islam help mitigate it until its self eradication!

As for the women's right - you may have already heard from ChatGPT that - "Quran introduced groundbreaking changes by granting women's rights like inheritance, property ownership and education - that was revolutionary for that time. It bought justice in marriage through mutual consent, fairness and the right to seek divorce. Most importantly God sees man and women as spiritually equal; emphasizing their equal dignity and worth in his eyes".

I see no level playing field in Islam for women.
And "something verifiable" is your Bible with thousands of hole in it? Mohammad just showed were the Christians went astray. If you don't want to find your way back - then remain lost in the wilderness.
When someone is trying to rescue you - you don't call him a warlord! If you don't want to be rescued - you say - "thank you but I am fine!";)

It’s not my Bible so if Muhammed plagiarised it I don’t mind,I’m not lost so I’m fine ;-)
Well! If glass full of water is on the table and the table is on the floor - you don't say glass is on the floor! You certainly don't say - water is on the floor!
No need to go deep - people find a reason to fight due to any "differences"!

Or religion.
Yes! You are forgetting the promises and betrayal! This is where you need to take a deeper look!

I have,at the end of ww1 promises were made to the Arabs that they would get the whole region but the European powers already decided who would get the mandates,remember that this was conquered land.
Yeah! You tied up the dove upside down - beat it until it was almost dead but you did not eat it! You released it because opposition was getting hot on your case!

Sounds a bit fierce.
Let us go back in time to the caveman era and see who really have the claim to that land!
Shall we?
Folks or their children are still alive who were evicted. This is fresh! These folks are different than folks who lose a war to someone and yet allowed to remain where they were. These folks were evicted and are continued to be oppressed!

Of course they are faultless,ok let’s go back to the caveman era,should be fun hearing that one,like a long long long time before the Canaanites.
Do you use a Smart phone (iPhone)? Do you ask questions to Siri?
AI is coming to a phone near you - and it will come with a slapping hand! Whenever you ask a stupid question - it will slap you!
Kudos to the Australian singer for asking the right questions to show the world - it is time to think where you stand and where the truth stands!
Here is the link again if someone reading missed it and does not understand what I am talking about!



I use Siri for cooking,read my texts,phone someone and maps,nothing special,it’s far better to use human intelligence.
 
Last edited:

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Misogyny has definitely not been eliminated in Islam

Men are in charge of women1 by [right of] what Allāh has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allāh would have them guard.2 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance3 - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them [lightly].4 But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allāh is ever Exalted and Grand.
That's not misogyny, that's Divine guidance.
..as I already pointed out, harmony between man and wife is important for
the emotional well-being of children.

The behaviour of both man and wife is important.
A man AND woman is entitled to divorce in Islam.
..and a woman is also entitled to work, and keep her earnings.
She is not obliged to spend on her family.

The secular system we have now CAUSES discord, fights about money and what-not.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
That's not misogyny, that's Divine guidance.
..as I already pointed out, harmony between man and wife is important for
the emotional well-being of children.

A good lesson on inequality,that’s what children need,swap harmony for subjugation.
The behaviour of both man and wife is important.
A man AND woman is entitled to divorce in Islam.
..and a woman is also entitled to work, and keep her earnings.
She is not obliged to spend on her family.

But still not equal.
The secular system we have now CAUSES discord, fights about money and what-not.

What’s the cure?,a medaeval ideology?,we tried that,well a much older one.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
But still not equal...
Political correctness is just that .. political correctness.
In my life time, I have watched the UK transform from a society that valued marriage and
family to one of forced political equality, brought on by women themselves.

Of course, not all women are in agreement with it. The system now treats them as men,
expected to work, and pay a childminder etc. etc.
Very stressful.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Political correctness is just that .. political correctness.
In my life time, I have watched the UK transform from a society that valued marriage and
family to one of forced political equality, brought on by women themselves.

I sympathise about marriage but could you stay in an intolerable marriage,people change,circumstances change and sometimes it’s for the best.

I agree though that political correctness and inequality is very silly like the trans fiasco but as for women,why can’t they have an equal voice?.
Of course, not all women are in agreement with it. The system now treats them as men,
expected to work, and pay a childminder etc. etc.
Very stressful.

There are times in life when your circumstances change,you both have to work but it’s for the benefit for your family,it’s not a new concept.
 

BrightShadow

Active Member
We have some very beautiful old churches where I live,there are some modern ones to but the older ones are better in architecture,I believe there are online churches but I don’t go to church physically or online.

If you want those beautiful churches to survive for your next generation then start attending them! If you are unable to explore Islam with an unbiased mind - then at the least keep what you already have or already had. Don't let those churches die out! There is benefit in that!

Ever since people (like you) stopped practicing your religion - the sanctity of human life, importance of marriage and marriage between man and woman and family values - all started going in a downward spiral. This declining state open up room to be filled with something else! Something evil!
If churches are booming then it will keep the so-called "progressive agenda pushers" at bay. You can meet up at churches and organize a counter movement against the propaganda machine. School authorities can be stopped in their tracks from feeding porn (particularly gay porn) to your kids from an early age. The propaganda machine need to be dismantled!



How do you know,did someone telly you?
[Quran 11:114] "Indeed, good deeds wipe away bad deeds. That is a reminder for those who remember."
All children of Adam are sinners, and the best of those who sin are those who repent. Narrated in Hadith. At·Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah with a strong chain of narrators.

You get the gist! It is the path to perfection. The way to perfection is shown yet every now and then - everyone fails. Everyone sins! Sin can be big or small! It is due to our arrogance, selfishness, greed, lust etc. It is not the fault of the religion.



Afaik there’s a remote control for the TV,nobody forces you to watch and you control the mouse on a computer,I’m not sure about the school curriculum these days.

That is a selfish answer! You would be against certain things if you had young kids wellbeing to worry about!

Not sure how old you are - but obviously you are not a 11 years old school going kid. So possibly you grew up in traditional old-fashion setting and thus able to make a right choice regarding what to watch and what not to watch. Kids don't have that mental state and parents can't watch them 24/7. They can be persuade in certain angle. These days they are made to think about certain things where naturally they may have never gone!

They are targeting kids. They are trying to indoctrinate kids via images, videos and social media and you are their cheerleader because you are complicit with what they are doing because to you - it is all the price of freedom!

So, they are trying to normalize "it" by exposing kids to the alternate lifestyle from an early age. These kids won't grow up the way you have.
So, when these kids grow up and become adults - we will have a different world where straight man and woman may have gender identity crisis because from an early age they are exposed to all this nonsense that it is okay if you think you are a boy or a girl or a mermaid or a dinosaur or a dog or a horse. They are telling the kids that they can identify themselves whatever way they choose! No one can judge them. They have all the freedom in the world! If someone tries to say otherwise - report them so that heat can be sent their way!


Would it any different under a caliphate?.

Once again - pathway is shown. Hypothetically it is possible. But that doesn't mean human can actually achieve establishing a perfect ruling govt. because it would be hard to find a ruling authority independent from human flaws.

I am NOT in favor of a single entity such as a "dictator" running the show anyhow. We live in complex times and separation of power is needed to prevent any one person or one part/branch of govt from becoming too powerful. We need to ensure that none of the parts of the govt is able to abuse the power the citizens bestow on them - without consequences! Yet in the top secular countries - implementation of sex (deviated sex) education in every public school is yet happening. Biological men are deciding to take transgender's identity and then they are being allowed to compete against women in women's sports. Communities and organizations belonging to LGBTQ2+ have the upper hand because they are organized and they are becoming so powerful that they can influence or intimidate anyone and everyone in the ruling party at the same time. Even when they are under the banner of "separate constituency" - separate voices are becoming one voice and that voice is in favor of the agenda pushers (LGBTQ2+). Laws are being changed or adopted to accommodate their agendas.

In a traditional religious setting where religious people are sitting in the front row - that won't happen. Islam is also against charging interest for loans. Any transaction that involves one party charging interest to the other party - has potential for manipulation and exploitation of the weaker party.
You seem to prefer "wokeism" It has awaken the free-spirit in you. But somethings need NOT be awaken because it can eat you alive if you are not onboard with their same agendas.

It’s medaeval and sexist.

It is easy to hide your own religious affiliation and criticize another. Look yourself in the mirror. If you don't adhere to any religion then you stand for nothing!


here women have strived for equal rights,they are close but more work to do in pay.
I see no level playing field in Islam for women.

God created women equal to men in spirit and in dignity and equal in worth in his eyes. But God did not create women equal in every shape and form (literally). God did not create women equal in strength. Men don't become pregnant. There are many biological and psychological differences. So, it should be fair to assume - men and women have different purposes and it should be encouraged to accept those differences. Equality in value does not change by doing so!

It’s not my Bible so if Muhammed plagiarised it I don’t mind,I’m not lost so I’m fine ;-)

So you have discarded the Bible completely because you were unable to figure out truth from the falsehood.
Might as well discard everything else and go to that nude beach in France and set up a tent and start living there! Just kidding!;)

If you don't have anything to guide you and show you what objective morality is - then your every decision will be based on self preservation and self interest. You will just use the remote control and flip channels and you won't worry about the kid who don't know what is good or what is bad. Society as a whole will fall in the gutters.
If you don't stand up against anything wrong - you stand for nothing!



I use Siri for cooking,read my texts,phone someone and maps,nothing special,it’s far better to use human intelligence.

Not when the so-called humans have surrendered their common sense and sold their souls to the devil! Artificial intelligence (AI) is meant to be unbiased. The answer provided proves that. Now they may work on it to figure out how to manipulate it or suspend its use or it's availability. They may take it offline! If that happens then that would be a shame!
 
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