Argentbear
Well-Known Member
and when you got that you threw a little tantrum....one that is still going on.
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Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.
- Thread starter stevecanuck
- Start date
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Conquests beyond Arabia didn't occur until after Mohamed's death, but the gist of what he said is true. Once ground has been consecrated for islam, they think it's theirs forever.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
How disingenuous can you get? The underlined part makes it sound like I'm taking individual words and rearranging them to suit some nefarious purpose. I'm quoting the Qur'an. Period. That's what it's there for - so people can read it, understand it, and take instruction from it.
Another phony phrase all dressed up to sound like scholarship. How could giving a direct quote from the Qur'an possibly be out of "linguistic context"? It IS the linguistic content.
"Linguistic meaning"????? You know, when you try to fool us into thinking you're some sort of scholar, you need to work harder at not including such absurd phrases.
Again, how on earth can providing a verbatim edict from Allah amount to a distortion of its "linguistic meaning"?
Pawpatrol
Active Member
A quote from the Quran can only be in the Arabic language. If it's English it's not a quote from the Quran, rather it's an interpretation and translation of the meaning.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
What historical context does the Qur'an give for verse 9:111?
What's that? None, you say? That's right. None. That's because such verses (like the vast, vast, majority of the Medinan verses) do not come with historical context. Obviously there IS historical context, but apparently Allah didn't give it because it doesn't matter. He is clearly presenting them as general statements.
Another swing and a miss.
Look at the dozens and dozens of active Islamic terrorist groups and tell me they give a rat's *** about the 1400-year difference. They are doing their best to party like it's 8 AH.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Correct in essence. However, enough fluently bilingual scholars have translated it to give us an accurate a sense of each verse as possible.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Which verse is that my friend?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh I hear it. Sorry I jumped the gun.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh I hear it. Sorry I jumped the gun.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Ahmed Sharif, a 44-year-old Bangladeshi taxi driver, had been navigating the streets of Manhattan for 15 years, effortlessly guiding passengers through the city's complex grid. On August 24, 2010, during his evening shift, Sharif picked up a young passenger, Michael Enright, a 21-year-old film student, near Second Avenue and East 24th Street. As they drove towards 42nd and 2nd Avenue, Enright initiated conversation with a friendly "Salaam aleikum," acknowledging Sharif's Muslim faith.
What began as a seemingly innocuous interaction quickly turned dark. Enright, who had served in Afghanistan, started making derogatory remarks about Ramadan and Islam. Sensing the growing hostility, Sharif chose to remain silent. However, just three blocks from the destination, Enright suddenly shouted, "This is a checkpoint, mother****er, and I have to bring you down." He then lunged at Sharif with a Leatherman knife, slashing his throat and attacking his face and arms.
Sharif, bleeding and terrified, pleaded for his life, explaining that he had a family to support. Despite his injuries, he managed to stop the cab, and Enright fled the scene. He was later apprehended by police, drunkenly claiming self-defense and ranting about Muslims. Along with an empty bottle of Scotch, officers found a diary in Enright's possession filled with anti-Muslim sentiments, further confirming the hate-driven nature of the attack.
Though Sharif survived, the trauma of the incident led him to move his family from Manhattan to Buffalo, seeking safety and peace. The attack, later classified as a hate crime, highlighted the deep-seated Islamophobia that had taken root in the post-9/11 era.
Well. That actually took place. I am Muslim. I have encountered many people who become friends of mine not knowing I am Muslim. And I hear them saying Islamaphobic things like "Oh I hate Malaysia. Too many Muslims". Also "America is getting infiltrated by Muslims" although America has only like 1% of Muslims. I just smile at their ignorance unless one day they ask me about my worldview.
The problem with many is that they don't really read up on the topics they speak about. No empathy. Just their cognitive bias portrayed all over the place. BUT I know one guy who was in this very forum who got an idea from another guy on a very theological matter about Abraham and went on to do his Phd thesis on that very matter. He has told me personally not to reveal his name, because well hell this is an Internet forum where everyone is anonymous and it's completely valid. So you see, there are some who benefit from this forum, while there are some who just come here to spread hatred that they have in their heart which they cannot spare in real life. Nevertheless Islamaphobia is not just a phenomenon, it's an industry and scholars and researchers have written books on the subject.
Anyway. That's that. Cheers.
What began as a seemingly innocuous interaction quickly turned dark. Enright, who had served in Afghanistan, started making derogatory remarks about Ramadan and Islam. Sensing the growing hostility, Sharif chose to remain silent. However, just three blocks from the destination, Enright suddenly shouted, "This is a checkpoint, mother****er, and I have to bring you down." He then lunged at Sharif with a Leatherman knife, slashing his throat and attacking his face and arms.
Sharif, bleeding and terrified, pleaded for his life, explaining that he had a family to support. Despite his injuries, he managed to stop the cab, and Enright fled the scene. He was later apprehended by police, drunkenly claiming self-defense and ranting about Muslims. Along with an empty bottle of Scotch, officers found a diary in Enright's possession filled with anti-Muslim sentiments, further confirming the hate-driven nature of the attack.
Though Sharif survived, the trauma of the incident led him to move his family from Manhattan to Buffalo, seeking safety and peace. The attack, later classified as a hate crime, highlighted the deep-seated Islamophobia that had taken root in the post-9/11 era.
Well. That actually took place. I am Muslim. I have encountered many people who become friends of mine not knowing I am Muslim. And I hear them saying Islamaphobic things like "Oh I hate Malaysia. Too many Muslims". Also "America is getting infiltrated by Muslims" although America has only like 1% of Muslims. I just smile at their ignorance unless one day they ask me about my worldview.
The problem with many is that they don't really read up on the topics they speak about. No empathy. Just their cognitive bias portrayed all over the place. BUT I know one guy who was in this very forum who got an idea from another guy on a very theological matter about Abraham and went on to do his Phd thesis on that very matter. He has told me personally not to reveal his name, because well hell this is an Internet forum where everyone is anonymous and it's completely valid. So you see, there are some who benefit from this forum, while there are some who just come here to spread hatred that they have in their heart which they cannot spare in real life. Nevertheless Islamaphobia is not just a phenomenon, it's an industry and scholars and researchers have written books on the subject.
Anyway. That's that. Cheers.
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Pawpatrol
Active Member
Scholars of English and Arabic, or scholars of Islam? That's relevant. How do you know, anyway?
I suppose we could be optimistic that the best of them give as accurate sense as possible. But that doesn't mean they give an accurate sense to begin with. One difficulty in translating the Quran is that many words in the Arabic language can have a multitude of meanings. You can't make a sensible translation by giving all of them, even if all of them are known to be correct. Instead, the translator will choose one of them and then might mention the others in footnotes, or not.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile, Terror suspect arrested in Quebec was plotting to attack Jews in New York | Globalnews.ca
Please tell me how the hell I'm supposed to know the difference between your cab drive and guys like this?
BrightShadow
Active Member
How disingenuous can you get? The underlined part makes it sound like I'm taking individual words and rearranging them to suit some nefarious purpose. I'm quoting the Qur'an. Period. That's what it's there for - so people can read it, understand it, and take instruction from it.
Another phony phrase all dressed up to sound like scholarship. How could giving a direct quote from the Qur'an possibly be out of "linguistic context"? It IS the linguistic content.
"Linguistic meaning"????? You know, when you try to fool us into thinking you're some sort of scholar, you need to work harder at not including such absurd phrases.
Again, how on earth can providing a verbatim edict from Allah amount to a distortion of its "linguistic meaning"?
Have you ever seen an Hybrid image? A double image? If not then google the words "hybrid image". In an Hybrid image - depending on the distance you are looking from - you see a different image.
Now, I am NOT comparing Quran to any hybrid images but what I am trying to say is - depending on - where your heart is when you are reading the Quran and depending on what you are expecting to find - your eyes will show you what your heart desires!
Read Quran chapter 2 verse 6-7. Unless you surrender yourself to the one true God - it is difficult to understand the doctrine because your heart won't be in it!
The Quran can be divided into two parts.
1) A historical document
2) A book of rules
Don't confuse historical parts and believe it applies to all times! Historical parts are just narrations to what happened. You can learn something from the examples but don't try to apply it to all scenarios. If someone is wrongly trying to apply it then say so - but don't say their understanding is correct or justified!
Context is paramount! Sometimes it may be difficult for you to understand the context because you don't know when a particular verse was revealed - so you cannot connect the historical significance of the verse to anything - thus you feel it applies to all times when it doesn't!
So, next time when you stumble upon such a verse that confuses you - you should seek help from someone who understand the language and has good background knowledge rather than coming to your own wrong conclusion and declaring or implying that Quran advocate violence, when it doesn't! It is all about self defense and it is all about preventing the complete annihilation of the truth in its early stages of declaration and establishment. Now truth has been delivered. You have a choice to believe it or not. So, no need for similar defense!
So, next time you come across a verse like 9:111 you should seek help to understand it or at the least - you should look at other good teachings and look at verses where it says..."killing one innocent is like killing the entire humanity"... and quickly realize your conclusion that Muslims are asked to fight, kill or be killed - must be flawed!
You asked about verse 9:111. Incidentally, September 11 is around the corner! Let me first give you a 9-11 reference! Maybe you will understand the importance of historical context!
After the attack on 9-11-01 then President Bush gave a speech. Let me paraphrase what he said... "There is no cave deep enough for you to hide in, we will smoke you out, we will find you and kill you".
We all knew what he meant! We knew he was talking about a specific group of people who were behind the 9-11 attack. We know it because we are from this era!
But imagine 1400 years in the future - someone (without knowing the background of events and issues in the middle east) reading the transcript of his speech might think President Bush was talking about killing all Muslim everywhere on earth!
In your particular scenario - that someone is you because you don't have the background knowledge.
Regarding the verse 9:111 - of course there is historical significance. I am not here to give you a history lesson. Just google "campaign of Tabuk".
When you are facing threat from at least a 35 times bigger army and when believers were having doubt about prevailing and as a result "truth" was in danger from not getting it roots established - encouragement was needed for the believers to stay the course and protect the truth from getting lost and overrun! In the past - the "truth" was corrupted repeatedly after the departure of other prophets! It was corrupted after Moses left, it was corrupted after Jesus left. It was our last chance. Truth had to prevail among at least some believers so that it could be passed on to the future generations!
Now Islam is well established. It will prevail whatever is thrown at it. So, no more worries!
You are not only failing to find the context - you are also reading between the lines and making your own assumptions. Why don't you read the good and clear-cut teachings of the Quran? If and when you acknowledge the numerous good teachings of the Quran - you will understand the problem was YOU and not the verses you are having problem with!
You have been told that killing one innocent is like killing the entire humanity - but you want to ignore that verse and try to say - killing is encouraged based on a verse you don't properly comprehend? Is that smart? Think deeply and think again!
Remember the entire Quran is delivering a message too and that is the ultimate context! So, one or two verses should not derail you if you look at all the good teachings!
If someone is living in the past and interpreting the Quran in a wrong light then say it as it is.
Tell them they have hijacked a good religion and that they are wrong. President Bush used to say that - terrorist have hijacked a good faith system! So, do that but don't indicate to something improper and say they are doing it because the Quran said so!
Don't think and interpret like the terrorists. Give some rat's*** to the proper context and allow the truth to prevail.
Otherwise - what is the difference between you and the terrorist? You are both complicit. One actively involved and one interpreting the same way!
Pawpatrol
Active Member
Jihad is not just for self defense. That's a baseless claim that the apologetics have made in fear of being judged by the disbelievers.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
This is the closest you've come to saying something useful. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you've actually hit the nail on the head. My whole point in providing quotes from the Qur'an is to, as you put it, "think and interpret like the terrorists". Do you really not see that?
I'm showing EXACTLY why terrorists do what they do by showing the verses they read. Seriously, how is that not the bleedin' obvious?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
How do you do morality or ethics or whatever you call that? You know right and wrong, good and bad?
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Now, look up all 50ish references to "fasad", and you'll see that it covers all things and people non-Islamic. Then read the next verse to see how such people should be treated. (Again, I'm "thinking like a terrorist", because 5:33 describes what terrorists do.)
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
In Islam, "good" is whatever Allah says it is. And verse 9:111 says it's "fighting in the cause of Allah, killing and being killed".
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
So you are a Muslim yourself and that is your morality, as what Islam says. Thanks.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
So long as you know what that meant, that's all that matters.