Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Rival]

you mentioned the name Sheikh Najih Ibrahim ibn Abdullah in your OP, may i ask you who is that person ?
I found him only mentioned in the anti Islam websites.

I have no idea. I believe he's a reformist liberal Muslim, er, Sheikh from Egypt. He wrote a book on minorities in an Islamic state.

 

[FearGod]

I have no idea. I believe he's a reformist liberal Muslim, er, Sheikh from Egypt. He wrote a book on minorities in an Islamic state.

I didn't find any information about him in Arabic, how did you know that he is a writer from Egypt and how reliable he's ?

 

[Rival]

I didn't find any information about him in Arabic, how did you know that he is a writer from Egypt and how reliable he's ?

That quote was taken from his book, so I believe. I Googled in English and came to a footnote to his book from Wiki. That's all

 

[Rival]

Just to lighten the mood a little...I've always been told that the two things you never discuss with friends is religion and politics. With that in mind, I think we do a pretty good job here considering the diversity of participants.

Great, but not relevant to the thread. Also religion and politics are some of my favourite discussion topics, so to hell with that rule.

 

[Sundance]

Also wife-beating is not in self-defence. Wife-beating is a disgusting shameful act and should never be allowed in any civilised society.

Of course it is shameful, very much so. When did I say otherwise? When did I mention wife-beating?

 

[Rival]

Of course it is shameful, very much so. When did I say otherwise? When did I mention wife-beating?

You said that the violence in the Qur'an is only of the self-defence kind. Wife-beating is violence and it is definitely not in self-defence, and wife-beating is permitted by the Qur'an.

 

[FearGod]

That quote was taken from his book, so I believe. I Googled in English and came to a footnote to his book from Wiki. That's all

Do you think he's reliable ?

 

[Rival]

Do you think he's reliable ?

Well sure, if he's a Sheikh, and I believe what he's saying matches up with the Qur'an and Sunnah. No problem there. At this point I'm just being helped to get my post count to 1000

 

[FearGod]

Well sure, if he's a Sheikh, and I believe what he's saying matches up with the Qur'an and Sunnah. No problem there. At this point I'm just being helped to get my post count to 1000

About being forced to pay the tax, who isn't forced to pay the taxes ?
Are you free not to pay if you wish in your homeland, IOW is it voluntary ?

 

[Rival]

About being forced to pay the tax, who isn't forced to pay the taxes ?
Are you free not to pay if you wish in your homeland, IOW is it voluntary ?

So, how many times are we going to go through this?

THE JIZYAH IS RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION DESIGNED TO BE PAID BY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS PROTECTION MONEY SO THEY CAN LIVE IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.

NORMAL TAXES ARE PAID BY EVERYONE NOT BASED ON RELIGION.

The jizyah is NOT a regular tax! It is extortion.

Do you see the difference??

 

[Rival]

Taxing someone based on their religion is horsepoo, especially if threats are used when such a person doesn't pay. The jizyah is extortion against religious minorities.

 

[FearGod]

So, how many times are we going to go through this?

THE JIZYAH IS RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION DESIGNED TO BE PAID BY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS PROTECTION MONEY SO THEY CAN LIVE IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.

NORMAL TAXES ARE PAID BY EVERYONE NOT BASED ON RELIGION.

The jizyah is NOT a regular tax! It is extortion.

Do you see the difference??

But they don't want to pay the normal tax, thats why the verse speaks about forcing them to pay and hence it's a Jizyah.

 

[FearGod]

Taxing someone based on their religion is horsepoo, especially if threats are used when such a person doesn't pay. The jizyah is extortion against religious minorities.

In case if they refused to pay for the state because it's rules by Muslims, then they should be forced to pay.

 

[Rival]

But they don't want to pay the normal tax, thats why the verse speaks about forcing them to pay and hence it's a Jizyah.

In that case I'm horribly wrong, but where does the Qur'an say they won't pay their taxes, whoever these people were? I still don't believe it. The verse says to fight them until they pay the jizyah. Of course they are not going to pay zakat if they are not Muslims, so they shouldn't be made to pay it even if they live in an Islamic land.

And for everyone, here is the whole of Surah At Tawbah, what we are talking about:

http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah9.html

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The last sentence indeed makes me laugh, In France they were forbidden from wearing their custom dress,

As were the members of all other religions. The strictures didn't just apply to 'Muslims' or 'non-Muslims'. Nice try.

French schools forced the Muslims students to wear colored discs because they don't eat pork.

They also made the same demand of Jews for the same reason. Given Europe's history of making people wear distinguishing badges and how it treats such people. I'm more than a little wary of such schemes. That aside, if they didn't employ such a scheme to avoid feeding children contrary to their parents' beliefs, you'd probably be complaining about either the hypothetical alternative scheme used (whatever that might be) or the fact no scheme was employed at all - and thus the government was being religiously insensitive.

It's hilarious indeed to say that Muslims are treated equally compared to the others in Europe, better to be satanic than a Muslim in Europe.

Muslims in Europe are certainly treated better than in many places in the Middle East. Violence between Muslim sects is very rare in Europe and such incidents are actually investigated by our security forces e.g. police because we don't see things through the eyes of 'They are not real Muslims so let the attack slide'.

And Satanism doesn't enforce a dress code. Neither, for that matter, does Islam. Veiling is not a religious obligation. Telling Muslims not to veil in certain contexts in no way inhibits their ability to be a practising Muslim.

Are you the Angels and the Muslims are the evils ?

Nice strawman. I have not once claimed that European societies are perfect or divinely inspired. Believe me, there is plenty wrong with the way some European nations operate. Your system, however, is far worse than ours.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1753103/eu...g-pig-heads-in-wake-of-french-terror-attacks/

You complain about Europeans not trusting Muslims and bring this up. Are our fears entirely without warrant when a few of your religious compatriots gunned down people in cold blood for the sake of a drawing. A drawing. People were wrong to take their anger out on innocent Muslims and to attack their holy places in the way they did, definitely. But look at the fact that the majority of Muslims protesting the issue were protesting the cartoons rather than the terrorists who had sullied your prophet's name with bloodshed.

Can i come to your country if i'm not Scottish ?

Yes, I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't be welcome.

is it moral to reject people from visiting your land just because they weren't born there?

Not really sure where you're going with this. Are you trying to say we're racist or something?

Why foreigners have to pay fees to visit your country ? why not treated equally similar to other humans ?

Not all foreigners do. Those who come from within the EU don't whereas those who come from without the EU must pay. That's to do with the borders of the European Union and associated free travel area. That itself is to do with economic agreements signed between governments, not xenophobia or racism.

Why do racism exists in your community ? why some foreigner are allowed to enter while the other aren't allowed ?
Why Muslims are mistreated in Europe ?

Racism exists because we're human and humans tend to fear the thing they don't understand. The second question was answered above this quote. As for the third: Muslims are mistreated because the media in many of our nations has spent the last decade and a half telling us repeatedly that many if not all of Europe's Muslims think the way you do - that Sharia is acceptable, that it's perfectly acceptable, indeed desirable for non-Muslims to pay the jizyah, that you all want a global caliphate, and that you're willing to snuff out the beacon of Western civilisation in order to achieve that.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

In case if they refused to pay for the state because it's rules by Muslims, then they should be forced to pay.

So a tax levied purely on Muslims is acceptable too? Fine and dandy. Cough up.

 

[FearGod]

In that case I'm horribly wrong, but where does the Qur'an say they won't pay their taxes, whoever these people were? I still don't believe it. The verse says to fight them until they pay the jizyah. Of course they are not going to pay zakat if they are not Muslims, so they shouldn't be made to pay it even if they live in an Islamic land.

And for everyone, here is the whole of Surah At Tawbah, what we are talking about:

http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah9.html

If they want to pay then why to force them by fighting, it's understood they weren't paying and hence the fighting.

 

[Rival]

If they want to pay then why to force them by fighting, it's understood they weren't paying and hence the fighting.

Why would they want to pay? Which tax are you talking about? There weren't any taxes for them back then.

 

[Sundance]

You said that the violence in the Qur'an is only of the self-defence kind. Wife-beating is violence and it is definitely not in self-defence, and wife-beating is permitted by the Qur'an.

You would be right, Rival, except for the fact that you just decontextualized my post, but I suppose I am to blame for not specifying. What I mean by my post is the only kind of physical force permitted in Al-Qu'ran is an action done in self-defense or defense of others, or with physical attacks on the (Muslim) faith by enemies and even then, that's within reason.

 

[MARCELLO]

I'm constantly being told that Islam stands for peace when it clearly doesn't according to its own scriptures. I'm expounding my position here for others to debate.

When will you realize that you are wrong? There is no religion standing for peace,it is no logical. Every religion says it is the best.

Pls cite me a religion which says some other religion is better than it.