Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Deidre]

But is it not significant that the vast majority are peaceful, & that it's relatively tolerant (by SE Asian standards)?

Thissss

The fact that this thread is still going on, amazes me. In a sad way.

 

[icehorse]

But is it not significant that the vast majority are peaceful, & that it's relatively tolerant (by SE Asian standards)?

When does evolution to theocracy turn out well? When has that been anything but a backward slide away from human rights?

 

[Revoltingest]

When does evolution to theocracy turn out well? When has that been anything but a backward slide away from human rights?

I say it turns out poorly.
But this illustrates that Islam is variable with respect to tolerance.
It is what it is in a given place & time.

 

[icehorse]

I say it turns out poorly.
But this illustrates that Islam is variable with respect to tolerance.
It is what it is in a given place & time.

I don't think anyone was arguing that Islam was a completely unified, consistent entity. But that's hardly a "get out of jail free" card.

 

[Shad]

Yes, since most Middle Easterners are Muslims, criticizing their religion as you have done here is obviously some kind of criticism of them as people.

Just as an unfair criticism of Christian scriptures is a criticism of the people that follow those scriptures.

Pure nonsense. Religions are ideas. All ideas can be criticized. You just do not like to be criticized then seem to demand people should not do it. However since it is your problem you should take stock for a moment. Maybe you should avoid conversations in which you or an idea you believe in is scrutinized since you can not handle said criticism

 

[Shad]

http://www.caliphate.eu/2008/07/taxation-in-islam-wealth-tax.html

None of which is actually evidence. No records, no statements from the people, nothing. It is just religious rhetoric devoid of evidence for your claims.

 

[Lyndon]

Pure nonsense. Religions are ideas. All ideas can be criticized. You just do not like to be criticized then seem to demand people should not do it. However since it is your problem you should take stock for a moment. Maybe you should avoid conversations in which you or an idea you believe in is scrutinized since you can not handle said criticism

Wrong again, an uniformed criticism of a religion is a criticism of the founder of the religion and all the followers of that scripture, informed criticism is one thing, but has been demonstrated over and over in this thread most of the criticism was uniformed of the actual reality of the scripture and what people follow. Criticism of a religion that is not criticism of people is only possible when no one follows that religion.

 

[Shad]

Wrong again, an uniformed criticism of a religion is a criticism of the founder of the religion and all the followers of that scripture, informed criticism is one thing, but has been demonstrated over and over in this thread most of the criticism was uniformed of the actual reality of the scripture and what people follow. Criticism of a religion that is not criticism of people is only possible when no one follows that religion.

Irrelevant. You are not talking about criticism which is wrong as in incorrect but the idea of criticism is out of line because people believe in said idea. Time to put your big boy pants on and get over the fact that any idea can be scrutinized. You can show criticism is unfounded but can not use said unfounded criticism as a grounds for not criticizing as a principle. Again merely stating you do not like something is not grounds for requiring people to entertain your whim. You wish to imposed a rule on people in which certain ideas are off-limits which is childish.

 

[Lyndon]

If you read what I said I was speaking against uninformed criticism, you can't rationally criticize someone for something you made up. And many of the criticisms in this thread were made up, they are things Muslims don't believe or practice.

 

[Rival]

If you read what I said I was speaking against uninformed criticism, you can't rationally criticize someone for something you made up. And many of the criticisms in this thread were made up, they are things Muslims don't believe or practice.

I'm critiquing the Qur'an, regardless of what Muslims do or not. When will you understand?

There are, in my opinion, bad things in the Qur'an and Sunnah/Hadith. I am entitled to that opinion and a debate on it. If you don't like that then leave this thread alone.

 

[Sees]

If you read what I said I was speaking against uninformed criticism, you can't rationally criticize someone for something you made up. And many of the criticisms in this thread were made up, they are things Muslims don't believe or practice.

What I see...

People are pointing to Shadow-Boxing and saying, "see, Boxing isn't a sport anymore dangerous than Tennis." Whereas others are saying Shadow-Boxing isn't the same as Boxing.

Only the uneducated think Islam is as vague and variable as is so often presented. It's intentionally designed to not be that way. Hence why clerics, sheikhs, Imams, jurists, etc. propagate the Islam which receives most criticism. They wouldn't be denial of most of the criticisms which are shunned as ignorance or even racism on here...they believe in the things themselves.

More power to the people who do practice a type of reformed, Islam-inspired faith. Their adapted creation isn't usually what is under criticism.

 

[Lyndon]

Any ancient scripture like the Bible or the Koran has things which taken in or out of context appear negative in the light of modern secular liberal thought, focusing just on one religions texts and not others, can in fact be a prejudice against that religion and its members, as has been demonstrated over and over in this thread, the OP has no interest in the Islamic interpretation of the text, but rather wants to make their own interpretation of Koranic verses taken out of context as representative of a religion of 1.5 billion people.

 

[Shad]

If you read what I said I was speaking against uninformed criticism, you can't rationally criticize someone for something you made up. And many of the criticisms in this thread were made up, they are things Muslims don't believe or practice.

Irrelevant. You wish to place a limitation on speech only allowing valid and sound criticism based upon your own views of said criticism. Coming from the group that already believes in said religion raises the question of your own bias and if you can challenge it. You can place criticism under scrutiny and argue the false nature of those claims. You can rationally show a view is based on false premises thus you can rationally argue against said view. You are free to convince people you are right but you can not demand people keep silent even if right. This is not in a spirit of the forum nor are some people obligated by nation law to keep silent. Again you not liking something is not grounds for anything beside maybe accepting you have problems with certain topics.

 

[Rival]

Any ancient scripture like the Bible or the Koran has things which taken in or out of context appear negative in the light of modern secular liberal thought, focusing just on one religions texts and not others, can in fact be a prejudice against that religion and its members, as has been demonstrated over and over in this thread, the OP has no interest in the Islamic interpretation of the text, but rather wants to make their own interpretation of Koranic verses taken out of context as representative of a religion of 1.5 billion people.

I am not a liberal. By any stretch.

I think wife-beating is wrong and violent and you can go look up the verse for yourself and the context around it. You can post the entire surah here for everyone to see. The Qur'an permits wife-beating. Is it wrong for me to question this Qur'anic surah?

I'm focusing on Islam because it is a growing issue in society and we need to face it, not ignore it like it's not there. Christianity is attacked all the time on a daily basis, just go on youtube, or any other forum, nobody is trying to shelter Christianity.

Whenever someone critiques Islam the response is always "You've misinterpreted" "You've taken it out of context", which implies that the verse is actually there and does indeed say what I'm saying it says. So please, post the context.

 

[Shad]

Any ancient scripture like the Bible or the Koran has things which taken in or out of context appear negative in the light of modern secular liberal thought, focusing just on one religions texts and not others, can in fact be a prejudice against that religion and its members, as has been demonstrated over and over in this thread, the OP has no interest in the Islamic interpretation of the text, but rather wants to make their own interpretation of Koranic verses taken out of context as representative of a religion of 1.5 billion people.

Which become criticism of a interpretation. 1.5 billion do not and have never agreed upon a grand unified interpretation of every verse, every view, every implication. Hence why there are many schools of thought within Islam, some extinct, some modern. Different sects. Different ahadtih.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think anyone was arguing that Islam was a completely unified, consistent entity. But that's hardly a "get out of jail free" card.

If I understand your metaphor, I agree.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Wrong again, an uniformed criticism of a religion is a criticism of the founder of the religion and all the followers of that scripture, informed criticism is one thing, but has been demonstrated over and over in this thread most of the criticism was uniformed of the actual reality of the scripture and what people follow. Criticism of a religion that is not criticism of people is only possible when no one follows that religion.

In the same way criticising a sports team is criticising the fans of that team. By your logic people who say Glasgow Rangers FC has a questionable financial history must be saying the same thing about all of the club's fans.

Stop calling things uninformed without any basis. Stop. It.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Was the golden age of Islam bad ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

I wonder

 

[Smart_Guy]

Whats a "kuffer?"

It is the Arabic word for non-believers. Dunno why people act up and refuse to translate it. Arabs are really bad in English

 

[Lyndon]

In the same way criticising a sports team is criticising the fans of that team. By your logic people who say Glasgow Rangers FC has a questionable financial history must be saying the same thing about all of the club's fans.

Stop calling things uninformed without any basis. Stop. It.

Sorry but that's not logically similar at all.