Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Rival]

May i ask you a question.

Do you want the disbelievers to pay the Zakat and be forced to follow the Islamic rules for the Zakat while they don't
want to follow the religion of Islam ?

I want the disbelievers to be left in peace and not have to pay anything just for being disbelievers.

 

[Kirran]

I will say, I certainly object to a great many things found within mainstream Islam, but these things are the opposition to secularism, the homophobia, the misogyny and the exclusivism. I object to even more things found within extremist forms of the religion, but find nothing to disagree with among the most progressive and/or liberal groups, such as certain Sufi traditions and certain groups like Muslims for Progressive Value, the Quillaum Foundation etc. In fact, I'd have more to disagree with you about than with them, @Rival, due to their being LGBT-affirming and feminist.

 

[Rival]

I will say, I certainly object to a great many things found within mainstream Islam, but these things are the opposition to secularism, the homophobia, the misogyny and the exclusivism. I object to even more things found within extremist forms of the religion, but find nothing to disagree with among the most progressive and/or liberal groups, such as certain Sufi traditions and certain groups like Muslims for Progressive Value, the Quillaum Foundation etc. In fact, I'd have more to disagree with you about than with them, @Rival, due to their being LGBT-affirming and feminist.

Pity this thread isn't about me

 

[FearGod]

It's basically 'protection money': "pay us this amount or we'll smash your property and threaten you". Done by any non-religious group; it's seen as extortion. The Italian-American Mafia used it as a means of getting money from business owners in early 20th Century America - and other gangsters throughout history have probably used it. Extorting money through threats of violence wouldn't be so often encountered in organised crime if it wasn't so effective.

What does Islam say about how to treat protected minorities who can but refuse to pay the jizyah?

Do you want the disbelievers to fight with the Muslims for the sake of Islam which they don't follow, by this way you're forcing them
into Islam and to fight with them under the name of Islam, do you think it'll be moral to force them into the Muslims army.

And this is how you console yourself that the jizyah is moral: don't make the poor old guy (who can't afford it anyway) pay the tax; that is immoral. But that rich bloke over there who doesn't want to be extorted? Make him pay or we punish him!

This is the dictionary definition of extortion.

Yes everyone have to pay the tax if he can do otherwise punished.
Don't you pay the tax in your country or you're free to say "no, i don't want to pay" ?

 

[Lyndon]

What you don't seem to comprehend is the Muslims were the majority and the government, the government collects taxes from everyone that can afford it, what's so unjust about a government collecting taxes to provide charity for the poor, our own governments aren't even that just.

 

[FearGod]

And you think that this makes jizyah an acceptable practice? "Pay us for being a Christian or die?"

Seriously?

Also, fair enough, but can I have some sahih ahadith?

Where did it say kill those who don't pay the Jizya ?

 

[Rival]

Where did it say kill those who don't pay the Jizya ?

In Surah 9:29!

“Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Allah, most high, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred mosque. On that, [Muhammad's home tribe of]Quraysh thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, most high, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the jizya. Ibn Katheir, The Battles of the Prophet, p. 183-184

What, is this playfighting? No, it's mortal combat!

 

[Lyndon]

What happens to you if don't pay your taxes in America. I think even the IRS and the American government fights people that do no pay their taxes, and the punishment is often quite severe, years in Prison.

 

[Rival]

What happens to you if don't pay your taxes in America.

America doesn't tax you for being a Muslim.

 

[FearGod]

I want the disbelievers to be left in peace and not have to pay anything just for being disbelievers.

Then they have to pay the Zakat and then being forced to apply the Islamic rules while they aren't Muslims,
which is immoral.

 

[Lyndon]

So you believe Jews and Christians should be exempt from paying taxes that Muslims have to pay, because that's what you are advocating for Muslim countries.

 

[Kirran]

Pity this thread isn't about me

Was just making the point. By certain definitions, there are Muslim groups out there less discriminatory than you are, although of course this would not be the case for the majority. Whether this is intrinsically a problem is rather another matter. Basically trying to reaffirm that Islam is variable, being composed of 1.6 billion people.

 

[Rival]

Then they have to pay the Zakat and then being forced to apply the Islamic rules while they aren't Muslims,
which is immoral.

Uh, no. That's not being left in peace. I want them to have religious freedom and not be taxed for being of a different faith.

Islam should have nothing to do with their lives.

 

[Kirran]

Then they have to pay the Zakat and then being forced to apply the Islamic rules while they aren't Muslims,
which is immoral.

Why can't you just have one national tax which isn't dependent on religion? Like in the UK, Chile, Singapore, Botswana or Tunisia.

 

[Kirran]

Uh, no. That's not being left in peace. I want them to have religious freedom and not be taxed for being of a different faith.

Islam should have nothing to do with their lives.

See, there's plenty we agree on in this area.

 

[Rival]

So you believe Jews and Christians should be exempt from paying taxes that Muslims have to pay, because that's what you are advocating for Muslim countries.

Muslims don't pay jizyah. I'm not opposed to regular taxes. I'm opposed to taxes based on religion.

 

[FearGod]

America doesn't tax you for being a Muslim.

The American government doesn't follow the religious rules, so they get taxes from everybody regardless of
their religions and the same apply today even in the Islamic countries,taxed are paid by force for everybody
while Zakat remains voluntary.

 

[Rival]

The American government doesn't follow the religious rules, so they get taxes from everybody regardless of
their religions and the same apply today even in the Islamic countries,taxed are paid by force for everybody
while Zakat remains voluntary.

Zakat is not voluntary. It's up there with salah and tawhid.

And that is because the West is secular and we don't impose our Religion/s on anybody.

 

[Kirran]

Zakat is not voluntary. It's up there with salah and tawhid.

And that is because the West is secular and we don't impose our Religion/s on anybody.

Here I believe he means voluntary as in a personal obligation, not a legal one. Not that this is in fact the case for ALL Muslim-majority countries.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Those Religions which thrived in the Middle East before Islam which are now oppressed:

- Christianity
- Zoroastrianism
- Judaism
- Various forms of Paganism

Last, Bahai is struggling to make a niche for itself because Islamic "justice" keeps sentencing them to death and oppressing them. They shut down their schools and other such places.

How many of these groups live in peace in Muslim lands?

How many Churches, Synagogues and other temples exist in, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan? Either not many or none, and none are allowed to be built anew and the current ones are not allowed to be repaired.

Second, jizyah - a tax for Christians and Jews to pay just so they can live in Islamic lands which were once their own! How many Christian countries fine you just for being Muslim? I certainly can't name any.

According to Muhammad:

Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas said ... "The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, ‘Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them.’ I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, ‘It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yamama and Yemen.’" Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.") (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288)

Here is the Qur'anic ayah about jizyah:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]

We have to pay a tax (jizyah) and be in "subjection" or else the Muslims will KILL us.

Here are the words of one Sheikh Najih Ibrahim ibn Abdullah:

"...to spare the blood (of the Zimmis [Dhimmis]), to be a symbol of humiliation of the infidels and as an insult and punishment to them, and as the Shafi`ites indicate, the Jizya is offered in exchange for residing in an Islamic country." Thus Ibn Qayyim adds, "Since the entire religion belongs to God, it aims at humiliating ungodliness and its followers, and insulting them. Imposing the Jizya on the followers of ungodliness and oppressing them is required by God's religion. The Qur'anic text hints at this meaning when it says: `until they give the tribute by force with humiliation.' (Qur'an 9:29). What contradicts this is leaving the infidels to enjoy their might and practice their religion as they wish so that they would have power and authority."

In one SAHIH BUKHARI HADITH Muhammad boasts:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

[4.52.220]

Muslims not to take Jews and Christians for friends:

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people [Quran 5:51]

It also calls them 'unjust people'.

Wife-beating permitted by God himself:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. [Quran Verse 4:34]

This isn't even if they have proven themselves unfaithful, but only even if the husband 'fears' it.

Jews and Christians as the worst of creatures:

Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth - [be they] from among the followers of earlier revelation or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures. Surah 98 ayah 6



Please stop parading this as a Religion of Peace, because it's not.

wow , what a change! werent you christian just a couple of weeks ago? no problem though.


islam is a religion of "peace", but only when you are muslim. it is a religion which is peaceful, once youre part of it. but if youre an outsider it is against you.
a muslim cant kill a muslim, he commits a very horrible act if he does. but if he kills a pagan he actually does a neutral or even a good deed.