Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Lyndon]

It's the imposition of sharia law upon non-Muslims which is an intrinsic issue, flying in the face of the equality upheld by secularism.

Sharia law was the penal code of their historic era, so you propose an legal system where Jews and Christians are exempt from obeying laws, when in fact in most instances, sharia law was not even imposed on Jews and Christians, they had their own legal system.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Sharia law was the penal code of their historic era, so you propose an legal system where Jews and Christians are exempt from obeying laws, when in fact in most instances, sharia law was not even imposed on Jews and Christians, they had their own legal system.

Are you speaking for Islam??? I am almost thinking you do.... You should read "the Pact of Umar". Or even Muhammads opinion on "the people of the book" (christians and jews) when under muslim rule. He said that a muslims is not allowed to say "peace be unto you" Salam alaikum when speaking to a non-muslim. And that non-muslims should walk, not on the street, but on the side of the road, showing their subjugated role to the muslim.

 

[Kirran]

Sharia law was the penal code of their historic era, so you propose an legal system where Jews and Christians are exempt from obeying laws, when in fact in most instances, sharia law was not even imposed on Jews and Christians, they had their own legal system.

So why is this acceptable today when the alternative of secularism is available?

 

[Lyndon]

Only about 10% of Muslim countries practice sharia law, and most do not enforce the strictest punishments, the other countries have a secular legal system just like we do.

 

[FearGod]

No, having partners besides "Allah" is a sin. There is also abrogation in Islam, which means the "peaceful" verses in Islam were replaced by the more intolerant ones. In the Quran it first said that wine is a sign of wisdom. Then it said that you should not be drunk when praying. And last of all it said that wine is the work of satan. Just as the wine story the "no compulsion in religion" has been abrogated by "Islam alone". Pagans commit the worst sin, the assosiaction of allah with other gods. Even the shahadah, the core of Islam, says "there is no god besides Allah", which refutes the greatest sin.

God punish the sinners and not us.

 

[Augustus]

There is also abrogation in Islam, which means the "peaceful" verses in Islam were replaced by the more intolerant ones

A view created around 2 centuries after Muhammed by al-Shafi'i and by no means universally accepted.

Because the Qur'an is the word of God and that cannot be reformed or changed.

Although interpretation of it has changed considerably.

Now many of these interpretations are indeed contrary to common decency, the idea that Islamic teachings are reified and immutable is not borne out by the historical evolution of the religion.

Much of this problem is caused by certain Muslims' insistence that their faith has remained unchanged and their inability to accept that much of Islamic orthodoxy emerged centuries after the death of Muhammed based on hadith and legal judgements that emerged from the realities of medieval empires rather than the 7th C.

It's fair to criticise the aspects of certain Islamic teachings that do not reflect modern values, but to say that Islam must necessarily be set in stone, whereas other religions like Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity are free to evolve ignores the significant evolution (and, unfortunately, devolution) that Islam has also undergone and continues to do so.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

God punish the sinners and not us.

Yeah but muslims are the "tools" of god. So they are allowed to "take care" (kill) the mushrik as to take care of the greatest sinners. Muhammad did the same, he would kill anybody who didnt convert to islam, or he would atleast make their life horrible unless they accepted Allah or him as their prophet.

 

[Rival]

A view created around 2 centuries after Muhammed by al-Shafi'i and by no means universally accepted.



Although interpretation of it has changed considerably.

Now many of these interpretations are indeed contrary to common decency, the idea that Islamic teachings are reified and immutable is not borne out by the historical evolution of the religion.

Much of this problem is caused by certain Muslims' insistence that their faith has remained unchanged and their inability to accept that much of Islamic orthodoxy emerged centuries after the death of Muhammed based on hadith and legal judgements that emerged from the realities of medieval empires rather than the 7th C.

It's fair to criticise the aspects of certain Islamic teachings that do not reflect modern values, but to say that Islam must necessarily be set in stone, whereas other religions like Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity are free to evolve ignores the significant evolution (and, unfortunately, devolution) that Islam has also undergone and continues to do so.

I don't think those other religions are necessarily free to evolve either. It depends on how dogmatic the faith is, and the Abrahamic ones are very much so, leading so a sort of semi-stagnation.

I still admire you ability to make well thought out and good posts

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

A view created around 2 centuries after Muhammed by al-Shafi'i and by no means universally accepted.

Muhammad choped the heads of 600 jews, because they didnt accept Muhammad as their prophet. What else do you need to know?

 

[Augustus]

I don't think those other religions are necessarily free to evolve either. It depends on how dogmatic the faith is, and the Abrahamic ones are very much so, leading so a sort of semi-stagnation.

I still admire you ability to make well thought out and good posts

To be honest, I'm just an argumentative *%&@ with too much time on my hands...

 

[FearGod]

Yeah but muslims are the "tools" of god. So they are allowed to "take care" (kill) the mushrik as to take care of the greatest sinners. Muhammad did the same, he would kill anybody who didnt convert to islam, or he would atleast make their life horrible unless they accepted Allah or him as their prophet.

No, the prophet fought the disbelievers for using the force to stop him from spreading the message of Islam.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I don't think those other religions are necessarily free to evolve either. It depends on how dogmatic the faith is, and the Abrahamic ones are very much so, leading so a sort of semi-stagnation.

I still admire you ability to make well thought out and good posts

I still find it amazing that you changed your view about Christianity. Didnt you say you've read about 15 different bibles the other day in my thread? What made you change your religion???

 

[Rival]

To be honest, I'm just an argumentative *%&@ with too much time on my hands...

Two in the boat.

 

[FearGod]

Muhammad choped the heads of 600 jews, because they didnt accept Muhammad as their prophet. What else do you need to know?

Your source.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

No, the prophet fought the disbelievers for using the force to stop him from spreading the message of Islam.

And the message is: "there is no god beside Allah and Muhammad is his messanger" which means that polytheists are all wrong and should be displaced and that even christians are wrong because they dont accept muhammad!

 

[Rival]

I still find it amazing that you changed your view about Christianity. Didnt you say you've read abou 15 differnt bible the other day in my thread? What made you change your religion???

I own fifteen different translations of the Bible, maybe more. I also own a Qur'an, the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Srimad Bhagavatam and The Odyssey. I just love researching all faiths.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Your source.

hadith. i will get more specific but i am sure youre familiar with hadith (as all muslims are). just give me time.

 

[Rival]

Your source.

It's not from a hadith but from ibn Ishaq, I believe; he is referring to this:

Then [the Banu Qurayza tribe] surrendered, and the apostle [Muhammad] confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I own fifteen different translations of the Bible, maybe more. I also own a Qur'an, the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Srimad Bhagavatam and The Odyssey. I just love researching all faiths.

Amazing. But you dont own any zoroastrian scripture? It is a good start to read some of it. The zoroastrians werent far off from persian/mesopotamian paganism. But i see youre very educated. But i find it still to be amazing that youve changed your anglican view! if i were to be a christian i would stay so my entire life once i have read more than 2 translations! The bible isnt so bad and the church even strengthens it. I would remain christians if "god" didnt reveal himself to me.

 

[Rival]

Amazing. But you dont own any zoroastrian scripture? It is a good start to read some of it. The zoroastrians werent far off from persian/mesopotamian paganism. But i see youre very educated. But i find it still to be amazing that youve changed your anglican view! if i were to be a christian i would stay so my entire life once i have read more than 2 translations! The bible isnt so bad and the church even strengthens it. I would remain christians if "god" didnt reveal himself to me.

I read the Gathas online. I can't find it in shops and I can't buy online.

Are you a bit one over the eight, my friend?