Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Rival]

Lets start with the jizya (taxes) , why you see it as an immoral thing ?

How would you like it if you had to pay a tax just for being a Muslim in Europe? You'd cry discrimination and 'Islamophobia'. How about if we said it was to humiliate you and make you feel "subjected" to your Euro-Christian overlords? I think most people would take issue with that. It's not exactly the "tolerance" and "love" that Islam supposedly stands for.

It's immoral to fine or tax someone just for belonging to a different faith than the majority. That's just really out of order.

 

[FearGod]

What if they found out about it or I declared myself a Satanist?

Religion can't be forced, the quran is explicabout it.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.(2:256)

 

[Rival]

Religion can't be forced, the quran is explicabout it.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.(2:256)

So what about when you apostatise? Is it so full of rainbows and unicorns then?

 

[Augustus]

So in other words Muslims can drink and smoke all they like just as long as they are monotheists?

Sure.

Legal ruling evolved and changed over history. Some are very surprising:

"And their mastery of syllogistic reasoning was capable of accommodating human frailties with equal ease, as early Hanafite arguments about alcohol show. Noting that the Qur’an disapproved specifically of ‘wine’ (khamr), jurists proposed that God clearly had no objection to fermented date juice (nabidh). Because the holy book warned Muslims against being too drunk to understand their prayers, they reasoned further that the evil of alcohol arose out of the senselessness produced by overindulgence. Intoxication could therefore be defined, they said, as an inability to differentiate between a man and woman. The route was baffling, but the destination was easily defined. If Hanafites were to be believed, Muslims could down alcohol by the jug until they became incapable of telling a slave girl from a beardless boy." (Sadakat Kadiri - Heaven on Earth: A Journey into Sharia law)

It's a really interesting and readable book actually. Recommended.

 

[FearGod]

How would you like it if you had to pay a tax just for being a Muslim in Europe? You'd cry discrimination and 'Islamophobia'. How about if we said it was to humiliate you and make you feel "subjected" to your Euro-Christian overlords? I think most people would take issue with that. It's not exactly the "tolerance" and "love" that Islam supposedly stands for.

It's immoral to fine or tax someone just for belonging to a different faith than the majority. That's just really out of order.

Taxes are paid by both, for Muslims they pay the Zakat which is even higher than the Jizya, so if i'm a Muslim in Europe and i have to pay a tax
which named differently than the Europeans and less in amount then i'll be more than happy to pay.

 

[FearGod]

So what about when you apostatise? Is it so full of rainbows and unicorns then?

The same thing (no compulsion in religion), isn't it clear ?

 

[Rival]

Taxes are paid by both, for Muslims they pay the Zakat which is even higher than the Jizya, so if i'm a Muslim in Europe and i have to pay a tax
which named differently than the Europeans and less in amount then i'll be more than happy to pay.

Muslims only have to pay zakat if they are earning over a certain amount of money and even then the Zakat only goes to other Muslims. Zakat goes to charity. Jizyah goes from even the poorest unbelievers to their oppressive government so that it can humiliate them and not allow them to build houses of worship for their own faith. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

Second, Pagans aren't even given the jizyah option, as per Qur'an, for them it's 'convert or die' effectively.

 

[Lyndon]

in a country where you are likely to be drafted for Military service, would you consider paying a tax to be exempt from being drafted??

 

[TunnelPalestine]

Then please leave the ME.

 

[Lyndon]

Rival much of your comments are outright lies, is this your idea of presenting an argument, because you're not doing a good job.

 

[Rival]

The same thing (no compulsion in religion), isn't it clear ?

Yes, it is very clear.

We all know what the Shariah says about this.

“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” Bukhari 9.84.57

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Sura 16:106

Ibn Abbaas said : The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.” Al-Bukhary (number 6922)

Abd-Allah ibn Masood said : The Messenger of Allah said : “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of three cases : a soul (in case of murder) ; a married person who commits adultery ; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of Muslims.” Sahih Al Bukhary number 6484 and Sahih Muslim number 1676

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Depending on how you understand it.

No. "Irrefutable" means that no matter my understanding, prejudice or bias, the evidence would point me (and everyone else) to the undeniable, unquestionable truth of your claim.

If it doesn't do that then it is not irrefutable.

 

[Rival]

Rival much of your comments are outright lies, is this your idea of presenting an argument, because you're not doing a good job.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sahih Muslim 19:4294 "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

Allah, most high, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred mosque. On that, [Muhammad's home tribe of]Quraysh thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, most high, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the jizya. Ibn Katheir, The Battles of the Prophet, p. 183-184

 

[FearGod]

Muslims only have to pay zakat if they are earning over a certain amount of money and even then the Zakat only goes to other Muslims. Zakat goes to charity. Jizyah goes from even the poorest unbelievers to their oppressive government so that it can humiliate them and not allow them to build houses of worship for their own faith. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

Second, Pagans aren't even given the jizyah option, as per Qur'an, for them it's 'convert or die' effectively.

Poor don't pay the Jizyah , they were given money from the Muslims treasury.

Muslims, guided by their religion, continued their civilized giving when they were transformed from Jizya takers to almsgivers to protect and sustain poor dhimmis. Ibn Zangawaih narrated that 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab(R) saw a senile dhimmi man begging, so he said: "We are unfair to you if after this old age we ask you to pay jizya." Then he wrote to his workers prohibiting them from taking jizya from old people.[39] He also commanded: "Reduce the sum of jizya for people who cannot afford for it and give alms to those who are incapable of paying at all."[40]


Caliph ‘Umar ibn Abd ‘Aziz also wrote to his worker in Basra 'Udai Ibn Arta'a saying: "If you find that a dhimmi becomes old, weak and poor, give him [some alms] from the Muslims' Treasury House."[41]


Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:

"It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor."[42]

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1051_1100/Jizya_in_islam.htm

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Lets start with the jizya (taxes) , why you see it as an immoral thing ?

It's basically 'protection money': "pay us this amount or we'll smash your property and threaten you". Done by any non-religious group; it's seen as extortion. The Italian-American Mafia used it as a means of getting money from business owners in early 20th Century America - and other gangsters throughout history have probably used it. Extorting money through threats of violence wouldn't be so often encountered in organised crime if it wasn't so effective.

What does Islam say about how to treat protected minorities who can but refuse to pay the jizyah?

Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:

"It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor."[42]

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1051_1100/Jizya_in_islam.htm

And this is how you console yourself that the jizyah is moral: don't make the poor old guy (who can't afford it anyway) pay the tax; that is immoral. But that rich bloke over there who doesn't want to be extorted? Make him pay or we punish him!

This is the dictionary definition of extortion.

 

[Rival]

Poor don't pay the Jizyah , they were given money from the Muslims treasury.

Muslims, guided by their religion, continued their civilized giving when they were transformed from Jizya takers to almsgivers to protect and sustain poor dhimmis. Ibn Zangawaih narrated that 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab(R) saw a senile dhimmi man begging, so he said: "We are unfair to you if after this old age we ask you to pay jizya." Then he wrote to his workers prohibiting them from taking jizya from old people.[39] He also commanded: "Reduce the sum of jizya for people who cannot afford for it and give alms to those who are incapable of paying at all."[40]


Caliph ‘Umar ibn Abd ‘Aziz also wrote to his worker in Basra 'Udai Ibn Arta'a saying: "If you find that a dhimmi becomes old, weak and poor, give him [some alms] from the Muslims' Treasury House."[41]


Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:

"It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor."[42]

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1051_1100/Jizya_in_islam.htm

And you think that this makes jizyah an acceptable practice? "Pay us for being a Christian or die?"

Seriously?

Also, fair enough, but can I have some sahih ahadith?

 

[FearGod]

No. "Irrefutable" means that no matter my understanding, prejudice or bias, the evidence would point me (and everyone else) to the undeniable, unquestionable truth of your claim.

If it doesn't do that then it is not irrefutable.

Correct and wrong.

If i understood a verse and you didn't, and if i found out that the problem is due to the misunderstanding of the verse due
to both the language and the misinterpretation by you and/or by the others, then for me it's irrefutable but for you a vague.

 

[Kirran]

I'm quoting the teachings of Islam, not what individual Muslims do. Especially Western ones. Also, go try to practice your faith in the Islamic Middle East and tell me that you don't have any trouble.

OK, I have in no way kept up with this thread, having read like the first four posts or so.

But proof in the pudding and all.

 

[FearGod]

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sahih Muslim 19:4294 "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

Allah, most high, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred mosque. On that, [Muhammad's home tribe of]Quraysh thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, most high, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the jizya. Ibn Katheir, The Battles of the Prophet, p. 183-184

May i ask you a question.

Do you want the disbelievers to pay the Zakat and be forced to follow the Islamic rules for the Zakat while they don't
want to follow the religion of Islam ?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Correct and wrong.

If i understood a verse and you didn't, and if i found out that the problem is due to the misunderstanding of the verse due
to both the language and the misinterpretation by you and/or by the others, then for me it's irrefutable but for you a vague.

Now you're talking about interpretation which is something subjective. But you were insisting:

Submission is a reality whether you like it or not, you can be rebellion but that doesn't change reality.

is an objective truth, regardless of one's beliefs or interpretations. You're making a claim to irrefutable, objective truth. So back it up with irrefutable, objective evidence.