Let's talk about Hell

[Danny Heim]

The sort of evolving I am referring to is not the kind we see when the leaders of nations come together and have a conference. Not even close. We have an emergency. But you have to look at that emergency in geologic time. And even if you believe the earth is only 6000 years old and not 4.5 billion, 100 years is still a short time out of 6000. The task of getting past these crisis's and saving our butts is mighty big. So big, that it will take the efforts of not just governments, FEMA, the military, the Red Cross, or any other entity that handles disasters, but it will take just about everyone on the planet. At least in the sense that major cooperation and sacrifice will be needed. And that has to start right freaking now. Putting it off and waiting for the right legislation or global accords is not going to get us there.

We are getting nowhere with our diverse ideologies. They have been fun, but the fun is over. If Christians can lay aside there ideologies and other religions do the same, we may have a chance. But ideologies are our Achilles Heel in this regard. They are doing nothing but stagnating us. Can religions "put aside" their differences? I doubt it. That is why I figure the only hope to just try and get them to dump them. It is like an alcoholic, you can't get them straight until they lay the bottle down altogether. A sip here and a sip there just puts them back in the drunk tank. Right now, where it comes to religion, we are in the drunk tank.

 

[Danny Heim]

Why should you believe anything period?

But if you should choose to believe in something, perhaps in the bible?

Otherwise, the field is open.

Blessings, AJ

I have a belief already. I have only discussed it here a little. I feel beliefs are a good thing and everyone should have one. It is an exercise of free will. My belief's yoke is easy, and its burden is light, in that regard, it is not very interesting, and therefore has little impact. It is also very easy for me to put aside for greater needs. J

 

[Etritonakin]

The sort of evolving I am referring to is not the kind we see when the leaders of nations come together and have a conference. Not even close. We have an emergency. But you have to look at that emergency in geologic time. And even if you believe the earth is only 6000 years old and not 4.5 billion, 100 years is still a short time out of 6000. The task of getting past these crisis's and saving our butts is mighty big. So big, that it will take the efforts of not just governments, FEMA, the military, the Red Cross, or any other entity that handles disasters, but it will take just about everyone on the planet. At least in the sense that major cooperation and sacrifice will be needed. And that has to start right freaking now. Putting it off and waiting for the right legislation or global accords is not going to get us there.

We are getting nowhere with our diverse ideologies. They have been fun, but the fun is over. If Christians can lay aside there ideologies and other religions do the same, we may have a chance. But ideologies are our Achilles Heel in this regard. They are doing nothing but stagnating us. Can religions "put aside" their differences? I doubt it. That is why I figure the only hope to just try and get them to dump them. It is like an alcoholic, you can't get them straight until they lay the bottle down altogether. A sip here and a sip there just puts them back in the drunk tank. Right now, where it comes to religion, we are in the drunk tank.

I'm not certain why you are focusing on Christians -or the religious -as hindering this evolution.
What does the belief in God -or Christ -or hell have to do with the crises we face?
Are religious beliefs causing global warming? overpopulation? hunger? disease?
Are churches also manufacturing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons? Are churches to be blamed for teen pregnancy? over-medication of children? widespread debt?

Bush was religious -and did get us into Iraq -Islamic extremists do want to see the end of America and Israel -but even in these cases, religious beliefs are not the root CAUSE of the problem. The root cause is how we treat each other and view each other. Religion is often a convenient excuse which makes some feel good about trampling people into the ground or taking revenge, but if religion did not exist it would make no difference whatsoever! They would find another excuse or way to make themselves feel justified.

A Christian, Muslim, Jew, or any other can get along fine with each other even though they believe different things -but when they mistreat each other or feel mistreated, war breaks out and everyone claims God is on their side.... but religion is not the cause.

People who ACTUALLY are simply trying to keep the commandments, for example, are not the problem. People who don't care how they affect or hurt others are the problem -and regardless of what they might claim, not many of these are truly religious.

We don't have to solve any problems! We have to stop making problems!
There are some people in this world who simply will not do this, but the more that do, the better things will be.

We are the problem! Not religious people -not athiests or agnostics -not Christians or Muslims -but all of us who do those things which should not be done -and who are not willing to do what is necessary to create peace.

 

[Danny Heim]

I'm not certain why you are focusing on Christians -or the religious -as hindering this evolution.
What does the belief in God -or Christ -or hell have to do with the crises we face?
Are religious beliefs causing global warming? overpopulation? hunger? disease?
Are churches also manufacturing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons? Are churches to be blamed for teen pregnancy? over-medication of children? widespread debt?

Bush was religious -and did get us into Iraq -Islamic extremists do want to see the end of America and Israel -but even in these cases, religious beliefs are not the root CAUSE of the problem. The root cause is how we treat each other and view each other. Religion is often a convenient excuse which makes some feel good about trampling people into the ground or taking revenge, but if religion did not exist it would make no difference whatsoever! They would find another excuse or way to make themselves feel justified.

People who ACTUALLY are simply trying to keep the commandments are not the problem. People who don't care how they affect or hurt others are the problem -and regardless of what they might claim, not many of these are truly religious.

We don't have to solve any problems! We have to stop making problems!
There are some people in this world who simply will not do this, but the more that do, the better things will be.

We are the problem! Not religious people -not athiests or agnostics -not Christians or Muslims -but all of us who do those things which should not be done -and who are not willing to do what is necessary to create peace.

You made many good points there, but none of them have anything to do with what I've been talking about. I am just talking about the need for cooperative thinking, not whose to blame. It's true, without religion we would have these problems anyway. That is because we have not evolved beyond them yet. Where I blame religion in all this is that it is a major cause of our inability to evolve to a higher consciousness that will help us solve our problems. That's a big difference from saying religion causes the problems. They are part of the causes though, that I won't deny saying and will say again. But that is not the crux of my point here. Hope you can see that difference. In any case, whether or not you misinterpreted me there, I still think a lot that you said was good and right on.

Read this what I said to Jollybear, see if it is jives with what I just said.
You make very good points here. First off, you need to understand that I am not looking for “cooperative thinking” for the purpose of spirituality or to solve the riddles of religious dogma, or to solve the question of the hereafter, or for harmony, or love and unity. My purpose is to save our butts. I am after hell because it takes us out of the here and now and puts us in after death. After death is not our problem at the moment, it is staying alive right now. And of course I believe it is morbid thinking, plus it sets us up in a tyrannical scenario. Those last two aspects are of the spiritual variety. But I am only making issue of them to try and persuade people to get away from them. And I am doing that because it causes a rift between us. And that is only true in the sense that we are so far apart in our thinking, not feeling. Hell represents the distance between us, see what I mean?
Now this is very important, I would not give a hoot about hell or Christianity’s one way or die dogma if we were not in such a dire need to come together. Religion in general put us all at a distance, but these aspects of the Christian religion are two of the biggest as far as I can tell, that is, the issues of the morbid thinking of hell and that Christian belief sets us up in a tyrannical scenario. Of course there is the Taliban, and they are just as bad, but I can’t talk to them because they’re hiding in bunkers, so you’re it for now.J
Beyond all this, Christianity is either back 2000 years in the bible, or off into the afterlife. Add to that, it believes God is going to come and do away with it all anyway, so why worry about it. It says we are all lost and can not do anything without god, so they sit and wait for God to show.
So, would all of us agreeing that the Christian belief is the truth solve this need of cooperative thinking? Maybe, but there would be a danger of it causing us to just wait on god, and we only have a 100 years, so say the scientists. Bottom line, we don’t have time for ideological differences, either we get rid of them, or find some way to put them aside and get busy with the task of saving our butts. I am not waiting for them to be put aside, because as long they are there, they will dominate the dynamics of our relationships. Right now, you are over there and I am over here, and there is no coming together.

 

[Etritonakin]

Religion as the world does it, perhaps, but as far as, say, the ten commandments are concerned, those are the basics of the higher consciousness of which you speak -even if you don't agree.

When we all get together to make the world better, such things as not killing, not stealing, not lying, etc... should definitely be included.

Furthermore, disregarding God will not lead to a higher consciousness, but to our not being conscious of that which is most important -even if you now disagree. The fact that you are not conscious of God or the importance of being conscious of him is the single greatest hindrance to a higher consciousness.

You say we all need to get together and solve all of these problems -but do you honestly see it happenening by man's efforts alone? Seriously, I'm not saying we could not make vast improvements, but list all of the things necessary to bring about the change of which you speak, then ask yourself what would be necessary to make everyone agree on a plan.
You can say we all need to agree, but how could you possibly make that happen? Even if we agreed we needed to agree, whose plan would we agree upon? How could we take human nature out of the equation? Anger, greed, apathy, hatred, selfishness -those are the stumbling blocks -not religion. God's got a plan to make it all happen, the power to do it, and the knowledge of what everyone SHOULD agree upon -whether they now agree or not. What's your plan?

We don't need to come together -as we are not apart. I see the problems in the world -I see their cause -I avoid contributing to them - <<<<A N D>>>> I believe in God. I try to live the way I would in a perfect world -which is the only way the world can become perfect. I try not to consider which is the lesser of two evils, but avoid doing evil at all. I strive not to do what I hate, rather than doing it to those who did it to me -I strive to live peacefully with people -if they are willing -even if they have wronged me -so as not to continue the cycle of error. I hate war, so I refuse to kill -I know what it's like to be hungry, so I give to those in the same situation. I'm not trying to sing my own praises, just to illustrate that I AM doing something about it -and God's religion has HELPED in that regard!

Forgive those who do you wrong... love your enemies -do good to those who hate you and spitefully use you -do unto others as you would have them do unto you -turn the other cheek -let not the sun go down on your anger.... sound familiar? That is what is required -that is higher consciousness -that would heal the hurt, hatred and cycle of revenge -and everything else... and it's all in the bible.

 

[look3467]

We are the problem! Not religious people -not atheists or agnostics -not Christians or Muslims -but all of us who do those things which should not be done -and who are not willing to do what is necessary to create peace.>>>Etritonakin

You have nailed it right on the head! "We are the problem!

Now, why is it that way?

I mean, a lion has no problem chasing a deer and killing it for food when its hungry.

But we humans, with superior intelligence, do have a choice about the things that are about us whether for the good or, for the evil of it.

The only deterrent to any evil doings verse the good, is a Godly conscience.

Whether we know God or not, I believe, our conscience is our moral and spiritual guide.

For many of us, there were no choice as to what religious beliefs we were introduced in and therefore, are destined to by trial and error, find our way towards the truth.

I was brought up in the catholic doctrine, later changed to the Baptist doctrine, later to the independent non-denominational views.

Through the course of my life, I've questioned my beliefs in light of many of the other beliefs,and have settled on what I now believe to be the best and more accurate view, based solely on the contents of the bible.

This view answers for me many of my own questions and the questions that are discussed here on these type of forums and that has to do with the seven day creation.

It has a clear beginning, a reason for our intelligence, the purpose of the judgment and the final consequence of it all. (Life can be hell)

It is by the same that hope is generated, as a final destination, after this life is done with. (Out of a hellish environment hope in life can spring out, based on the right religious attitude.)

Love one for another is a Godly conscience driven, and not one common to the natural man.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Beta]

I am in total agreement with ETRITONAKIN and LOOK3467 what they said in their last few posts.

Danny , what you are aiming for is un-attainable 'en masse'. You want to change the whole world in one go and that is like trying to turn a very large ship in full sail in a tight circle.
Not all people see the urgency for change the way you do and have no intention of changing the 'status quo' which gives THEM power and wealth. You and we are just small-fry with nothing to say . All we can do is change OURSELVES .
My suggestion is you take your CAUSE to those in authority who have influence on the nations - to see it YOUR way !

 

[Beta]

We don't have to solve any problems! We have to stop making problems!
There are some people in this world who simply will not do this, but the more that do, the better things will be.

We are the problem! Not religious people -not athiests or agnostics -not Christians or Muslims -but all of us who do those things which should not be done -and who are not willing to do what is necessary to create peace.

I couldn't have put it better myself - cheers ! :shout

 

[Danny Heim]

Religion as the world does it, perhaps, but as far as, say, the ten commandments are concerned, those are the basics of the higher consciousness of which you speak -even if you don't agree.

When we all get together to make the world better, such things as not killing, not stealing, not lying, etc... should definitely be included.

Furthermore, disregarding God will not lead to a higher consciousness, but to our not being conscious of that which is most important -even if you now disagree. The fact that you are not conscious of God or the importance of being conscious of him is the single greatest hindrance to a higher consciousness.

You say we all need to get together and solve all of these problems -but do you honestly see it happenening by man's efforts alone? Seriously, I'm not saying we could not make vast improvements, but list all of the things necessary to bring about the change of which you speak, then ask yourself what would be necessary to make everyone agree on a plan.
You can say we all need to agree, but how could you possibly make that happen? Even if we agreed we needed to agree, whose plan would we agree upon? How could we take human nature out of the equation? Anger, greed, apathy, hatred, selfishness -those are the stumbling blocks -not religion. God's got a plan to make it all happen, the power to do it, and the knowledge of what everyone SHOULD agree upon -whether they now agree or not. What's your plan?

We don't need to come together -as we are not apart. I see the problems in the world -I see their cause -I avoid contributing to them - <<<<A N D>>>> I believe in God. I try to live the way I would in a perfect world -which is the only way the world can become perfect. I try not to consider which is the lesser of two evils, but avoid doing evil at all. I strive not to do what I hate, rather than doing it to those who did it to me -I strive to live peacefully with people -if they are willing -even if they have wronged me -so as not to continue the cycle of error. I hate war, so I refuse to kill -I know what it's like to be hungry, so I give to those in the same situation. I'm not trying to sing my own praises, just to illustrate that I AM doing something about it -and God's religion has HELPED in that regard!

Forgive those who do you wrong... love your enemies -do good to those who hate you and spitefully use you -do unto others as you would have them do unto you -turn the other cheek -let not the sun go down on your anger.... sound familiar? That is what is required -that is higher consciousness -that would heal the hurt, hatred and cycle of revenge -and everything else... and it's all in the bible.

We will most definitely need the help of God. A plan? not me dude.

 

[Danny Heim]

I am in total agreement with ETRITONAKIN and LOOK3467 what they said in their last few posts.

Danny , what you are aiming for is un-attainable 'en masse'. You want to change the whole world in one go and that is like trying to turn a very large ship in full sail in a tight circle.
Not all people see the urgency for change the way you do and have no intention of changing the 'status quo' which gives THEM power and wealth. You and we are just small-fry with nothing to say . All we can do is change OURSELVES .
My suggestion is you take your CAUSE to those in authority who have influence on the nations - to see it YOUR way !

that'd be groovy, but the leaders of nations would only play a role, the real change has to come from you, me, and everyone else. If it is impossible to do, then we are screwd.

 

[Danny Heim]

I couldn't have put it better myself - cheers ! :shout

me neither

 

[Beta]

that'd be groovy, but the leaders of nations would only play a role, the real change has to come from you, me, and everyone else. If it is impossible to do, then we are screwd.

You keep saying we have to change but never tell us how or what. You surely must have something in mind for us / others. Yo must have a plan you want us to adopt / agree with.
I am a peace-loving and honest person with compassion for man and beast , what would you like me to change to ? Are you different but want me to be like you ? Give us a clue friend what you expect from us !

 

[Beta]

me neither

Then what is your 'beef' with us if you are in agreement ? :help:

 

[no-body]

No_body



I also want the human species to move past superstitions and pseudoscience, but the big question I have for you is, how do you know that &#8220;HELL&#8221; is superstition and false?

How do I know that unicorns are a superstition and false? How do I know there isn't a magical flying tea pot revolving around the sun as we speak?

I agree, we should not just try to convert people, we should encourage critical thinking skills, but at the same time, if what we believe is true (hell namely in this case) the implications of that are HUGE. That means we would have to PERSUADE people to realize it&#8217;s existence (IF it&#8217;s true). We should not indoctrinate people and discourage questioning, but we should encourage them to question, ask questions, counter things, and then at the same time they do this, we should answer those questions, and persuade. If hell is real, we got to take it seriously. If it&#8217;s not real, well, we also have to seriously FIND THAT out as well. Both ways, it&#8217;s serious.

I agree, I think children should be taught BOTH sides to every subject and then let them decide. That teaches them critical thinking skills. Also at the same time, if hell is real, everyone needs to believe it, IF it&#8217;s real. Why? Because the implications of such a place are huge.

There are not two sides to every subject there are countless of sides and angles you can look at things. Critical thinking is a skill that you teach it is not any one specific thing. For instance we wouldn't teach astrology along with astronomy to "teach both sides" we would go with only astronomy because it has a factual basis in reality and from what we know is the most true at the moment.

In cases of God, heaven, hell, reincarnation etc these are negatives that cannot be proven one way or the other with the empirical theory of science and are all about faith. There is no critical thinking skill involved in believing in them.

Well, yes I can quote scripture, but my point is you grouped me into a certain group of people that you had former experiences with. This was my problem I had with what you said (no offense though). I believe all of us need to deal with people as individuals and not as groups. I do this all the time myself, deal with people as individuals. I would not say others should do it if I did not do it myself.

Agreed

Also I am sorry that many folks have not answered your questions. If you&#8217;re willing, I am willing to take your questions very seriously with utmost care, and treat them as important. I will make an effort to answer them.

I'm kind of tired of reiterating this question but how is it fair that one woman getting one man to eat an apple dooms all of humanity? I don't care how perfect Adam and Eve where it isn't just that the child must take on the sins of the father.

That&#8217;s interesting, and I also think that love and unity and humanity should exist whether God exists or not. BUT here is the problem, I don&#8217;t see how IF there is NO God, how morals (love, unity, humanity) can be justified. But WITH a God, I understand that it CAN be justified. With no God, there is no foundation or justification for morals being pushed forward.

As a believer in Eastern spirituality I disagree. In fact some times belief in God can be a hindrance in that matter since you are waiting for some future heaven that never gets here.

Why keep Christianity out of the secular government when there can be SECULAR FUNDAMENTALIST POLITICIANS? Keeping Christianity out of it does not solve the problem, because there can be twisted secular people as well.

Good, do you realize there are insane secular fundamentalist politicians?

Nonsense secularism is about keeping government/society neutral to all beliefs and religions, if someone is a "secular fundamentalist" then they are no longer secular.

What was imperfect about my statement? Here is what I said as a recap

&#8220;At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God&#8217;s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That&#8217;s why God said &#8220;do not use my name in vain&#8221;.&#8221;

Tell me what was wrong with my defense of God here?

I see the God you describe as cruel and selfish. To me that isn't "perfect" it also means to me that even if Jehova is real, humanity can conceive of a better more caring God.

 

[Danny Heim]

Then what is your 'beef' with us if you are in agreement ? :help:

They were talking about things that were off my subject, which could easliy be done while thinking they were dircting it at me. I think it gets confused easlily, I've noticed. I really like what they said actually. The main beef is simply that religion gets in the way of evoling to a higher conciousness that will aide in solving our problems. Read post's 303 and 304, they deal with what you asking pretty well I think.

 

[Danny Heim]

You keep saying we have to change but never tell us how or what. You surely must have something in mind for us / others. Yo must have a plan you want us to adopt / agree with.
I am a peace-loving and honest person with compassion for man and beast , what would you like me to change to ? Are you different but want me to be like you ? Give us a clue friend what you expect from us !

At this point, I only hope we can get past our present collective state of mind as the human species. It is a mind of destruction, and stuck in very old ideas that have proven to be "not working".

I don't want anyone to be like me, I like being me all by myself. Our collective mind is a different animal though.

The only suggestion I have that would move us towards a higher consciousness is to rid ourselves of the idea that we know what we are doing, we don't. We need to admit defeat, humble ourselves and start new paradigms of existence. The only concrete thing I can suggest right off the bat is to rid ourselves of the free-enterprise system of economics, it has become a disaster. As much as people will hate it, we need to redistribute income while as the same time changing the concept of income drastically.

Beyond these things, it will take much greater minds than mine to bring us to new paradigms of civilization that will work and be sustainable. Raising the consciousness of our collective mind will cause that to happen automatically. That, I guarantee.

 

[Jollybear]

URAVIP2ME

How long were those certifiable deaths? Three or more days?

Some three days, some were less. The doctors were the ones who certified them dead. They SAW NONE functioning of the brain as well.

Would Jesus friend's death recorded at John chapter 11 fall into the category of 'certified' or 'certifiable death' ?______

I would say yes that Jesus friend Lazarus was certified dead, even though it is not recorded that he was certified dead, so I am assuming it of course. But there are actual case studies in our time where it&#8217;s recorded of certified dead cases.

Scripture does mention some resurrections that took place immediately or rather quickly after death. However, Jesus, in the case of Jesus friend Lazarus at John 11v17, Jesus friend was dead and buried for four [4] days.

Because of the way Jesus described his friend's death the apostles questioned Jesus as to why travel back two days to wake up someone sleeping? So Jesus plainly stated at John 11v14 that his friend was dead.

Jesus made the connection to a dead person as being in a deep sleep.

Where did Jesus learn that the actual dead are Not conscious?
By age 12 Jesus already had a well-rounded Scriptural education.
So Jesus would have faith based on accurate knowledge and good reason.
Jesus would have been taught the Psalms.
In the Psalms Jesus would have learned such verses as:
Psalm 6 v5 that in death there is no remembrance.

There is two problems with referencing Psalm 6:5, first off, most of the psalms are poetic language. What David says about death in regards to remembering is not very detailed, and it&#8217;s not the POINT or main theme he is trying to get at in that psalm.

The context of the psalm is that David is very distressed and sad. He is asking God to save him from his enemies and stress. Pretty much that is the POINT of that psalm.

When David says &#8220;No one remembers you (God) when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?&#8221; this is a means where David is trying to persuade God to deliver him. David is not making a doctrine here.

Also if you want to take this psalm and say it does not have poetic language, then that would only mean you would have to literally believe that in verse 6 David literally FLOODED his bed with tears to the point it got drenched. He is speaking with hyperbole poetic language.

Also even IF we did take verse 5 literally about death, it&#8217;s only the BODY that does not REMEMBER. It&#8217;s only the BODY that does not PRAISE God. With the body comes the mouth, when the body dies, so does the mouth that we praise God with. The brain also dies. So it&#8217;s the body that does not remember or praise, NOT the soul. The soul will continue to remember and praise IF it so chooses to. But if God did not deliver David, after he comes out of his body, he cannot praise God for saving him, because God would not have done so. Thus the words &#8220;who praises you from the grave?&#8221;

Psalm 13 v3 that the dead sleep the sleep of death.

In this case David is not talking of physical death but of spiritual. He is praying about having lively boldness, light to his eyes.

Psalm 115 v17 that the dead do Not praise God.

Again, it&#8217;s the PHYSICALLY dead that do not praise God. And even the souls that go on into the afterlife, they do not praise God IN THIS EARTH anymore, and that is what David is referring to, THIS LIFE.

Psalm 146 v4 that at death thoughts perish. Thinking stops.

Once again, this Psalm is talking about not putting your trust in princes or in mortal man, for when they die, there plans come to nothing. Rather put your trust in God. When it says the plans come to nothing, it&#8217;s referring to THIS LIFE.

Jesus would have been taught Ecclesiastes 9v5,10 that the dead know nothing. Conscious of nothing at all.

Yea, of course the physical body once it&#8217;s dead is going to be conscious of nothing, of course. But the soul IS conscious and lives separated from the body.

Jesus friend made no mention of what he experienced while dead for four [4] days before Jesus resurrected him.

That&#8217;s because at that moment that is not what was most IMPORTANT to be said. Jesus was more concerned with doing the miracle, bringing his friend back to life and helping others believe in him through the miracle. Jesus did mention the afterlife and a soul In other cases in the scripture.

Jesus made no mention of what he experienced while dead for parts of three [3] days before God resurrected Jesus.

Actually this one you&#8217;re incorrect. Jesus himself said while on the cross to the thief next to him &#8220;TODAY you will be WITH ME IN PARADISE&#8221; (Luke 23:42-43). The thief had asked &#8220;will you remember me when you come INTO YOUR KINGDOM&#8221;.

So after Jesus died, that day &#8220;today&#8221; they were IN the kingdom or the paradise. I don&#8217;t think logically that kingdom or paradise was a cold gloomy tomb.

If they were not asleep, but conscious in the grave, it would seem logical they would have informed us.

In Jesus case, he did inform us through the words &#8220;today you will be with me in paradise&#8221;, not to mention he talked about the afterlife elsewhere in scripture.

The prophet Daniel also believed [12v2,13] that the dead sleep in the dust of the ground, and Daniel looked forward to being resurrected [standing up] at the end of the days. That would be in the thousand-year day, or Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over earth. -Acts 24v15.

Yea, of course he believed the body would die, absolutely. But he did not deny that he would be in spirit form outside his body after his body died either.

 

[Jollybear]

Danny_Heim

I just decided to start with the following questions of yours, you have simply asked so many questions that I am lost in is all. Not complaining, I wish I could have answered them one by one, but like I said, I did answer them and then lost the post. So, I tried to summarize it all here.

That&#8217;s fine

I am going to throw out that your view is stupid, so forget that.

Ok.

You make very good points here. First off, you need to understand that I am not looking for &#8220;cooperative thinking&#8221; for the purpose of spirituality or to solve the riddles of religious dogma, or to solve the question of the hereafter, or for harmony, or love and unity. My purpose is to save our butts.

2 questions
Save our butts from what?
And how is not believing in hell going to save our butts from whatever we need saving from?

I am after hell because it takes us out of the here and now and puts us in after death. After death is not our problem at the moment, it is staying alive right now.

I see what you&#8217;re saying but your acting like people who believe in hell, that this is ALL they think about. This is not so, people who believe in hell also live there daily life as well. They are also concerned with this life. I am anyway.

How is believing in hell do away with trying to &#8220;stay alive right now&#8221;?

And of course I believe it is morbid thinking,

Depending on what view of hell is applied that is.

plus it sets us up in a tyrannical scenario.

Depending on how you look at it. If God is perfect in wisdom, it would be foolish to not listen to him.

Those last two aspects are of the spiritual variety. But I am only making issue of them to try and persuade people to get away from them. And I am doing that because it causes a rift between us. And that is only true in the sense that we are so far apart in our thinking, not feeling. Hell represents the distance between us, see what I mean?

I don&#8217;t see exactly what you&#8217;re saying here, no? Hell is a separation of us? Yes, I understand how that is. Hell in itself is a separation from God and others, but how is BELIEVING that there is a hell, how does that separate us?

Now this is very important, I would not give a hoot about hell or Christianity&#8217;s one way or die dogma if we were not in such a dire need to come together.

Come together to do what?

Also why do you think someone that believes in a hell, that this equals them not being willing to come together to help out on a noble purpose or task for the world?

Religion in general put us all at a distance, but these aspects of the Christian religion are two of the biggest as far as I can tell, that is, the issues of the morbid thinking of hell and that Christian belief sets us up in a tyrannical scenario.

How does believing in hell put us all at a distance?

Of course there is the Taliban, and they are just as bad, but I can&#8217;t talk to them because they&#8217;re hiding in bunkers, so you&#8217;re it for now.

Yes, I gauss I am it for now, I am enjoying the conversation as well.

Beyond all this, Christianity is either back 2000 years in the bible, or off into the afterlife.

No, this is not true; it is only true for SOME individuals who name the name Christian. Most Christians live in the here and now, in this world, in this life, we do. We have jobs, wives, kids, family, fun times. We live in the NOW. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Add to that, it believes God is going to come and do away with it all anyway, so why worry about it.

Misunderstanding, God is going to come back and do away with all the BAD stuff. That is a better representation. That&#8217;s how I represent it anyway, I don&#8217;t know or care how another &#8220;Christian&#8221; would represent it, but that is how I read the bible. And I&#8217;m right and there wrong, lol.

It says we are all lost and can not do anything without god, so they sit and wait for God to show.

I grant you there are some stupid Christians out there. The bible does not say sit around and wait, it says be ACTIVE WHILE you&#8217;re looking forward and waiting for his return or waiting for him to show.

So, would all of us agreeing that the Christian belief is the truth solve this need of cooperative thinking? Maybe, but there would be a danger of it causing us to just wait on god, and we only have a 100 years, so say the scientists.

100 years for what? Details please.

Bottom line, we don&#8217;t have time for ideological differences, either we get rid of them, or find some way to put them aside and get busy with the task of saving our butts.

We can all still believe and have differences and still come together to do a noble task to save our butts. But I am curious, save our butts from what?

I am not waiting for them to be put aside, because as long they are there, they will dominate the dynamics of our relationships.

No, they won&#8217;t unless individuals LET them dominate. There are two kinds of people in the world, caring and selfish. No matter what our belief or ideology is, we should CHOOSE to be caring for others and NOT selfish when it comes to relationships with other people.

Right now, you are over there and I am over here, and there is no coming together.

Even though I believe in hell and you don&#8217;t, how does that keep us from coming together to do something that does not relate to the concept of hell?

 

[Jollybear]

No_body

How do I know that unicorns are a superstition and false? How do I know there isn't a magical flying tea pot revolving around the sun as we speak?

Are you asking yourself these questions or are you asking me them? If your asking me them, well I asked you a question first, could you answer my question, it was

&#8220;I also want the human species to move past superstitions and pseudoscience, but the big question I have for you is, how do you know that &#8220;HELL&#8221; is superstition and false?&#8221;

If you answer my question I will then answer your question right after, unless you are asking yourself those questions about the pink unicorn?

There are not two sides to every subject there are countless of sides and angles you can look at things.

I agree, I was speaking generally. But yes, I agree there can be a lot more than two views on a subject. But there are not countless views. They do reach a limit.

Critical thinking is a skill that you teach it is not any one specific thing.

To teach critical thinking means you also have to give different views to the kids, so they can PRACTICE critical thinking. If you give them only one option to believe, do you then encourage critical thinking to that one option? If so, they will then not believe it since they are being critical of it. If you don&#8217;t encourage them to be critical of it because they need to believe it, because it&#8217;s &#8220;true&#8221; then you&#8217;re not teaching them critical thinking.

For instance we wouldn't teach astrology along with astronomy to "teach both sides" we would go with only astronomy because it has a factual basis in reality and from what we know is the most true at the moment.

Someone else may believe in astrology and think it is based in reality. They may think it&#8217;s true. So why not teach both sides?

Actually, why not teach both sides of origins?

In cases of God, heaven, hell, reincarnation etc these are negatives that cannot be proven one way or the other with the empirical theory of science and are all about faith. There is no critical thinking skill involved in believing in them.

How are they just all about faith and how is there no critical thinking involved?

I'm kind of tired of reiterating this question but how is it fair that one woman getting one man to eat an apple dooms all of humanity? I don't care how perfect Adam and Eve where it isn't just that the child must take on the sins of the father.

Good question, I got that question a lot in conversations I have had. And I have the answer for you believe it or not.

Here&#8217;s the answer: your right, it&#8217;s NOT JUST. But, it&#8217;s NOT GOD that did the INJUSTICE, it was ADAM and EVE that did it. God told them that the day they eat it, they will die. So they eat it and grew old and started to die. Their bodies were going to get weak and die and decay, so as they passed down there seed, there seed was in there CURSED BODY, so what does that mean? The seed will also be TAINTED with that same curse that was brought on their body. Adam and eve were given RESPONSIBILITY. When people have responsibility and do good, it effects in a good way those under their responsibility, and if they do bad, it effects in a bad way those under their responsibility. This happens all the time in the world. Leaders do bad, it effects the many others under their care, it happens all the time.

A mother gets pregnant and drinks tons of alcohol, what happens? That goes to the baby, is that just? NO, but is that injustice done by God? NO, it&#8217;s done by the mother. You see my point?

A guy sees a child and rapes and kills her, is that just? Obviously not, but is the injustice done by God? No, it&#8217;s done by the sicko. So why not ask &#8220;well why should the child be doomed for the action of the rapist and killer?&#8221; well it should be that way because when a knife goes in you or if they get shot, it SUPPOSE to kill you if that happens. Why does it suppose to do that? Because that&#8217;s how it WORKS, you shoot the body, it destroys the function. That&#8217;s why the child gets doomed.

Next question? SHOULD the murderer choose to MURDER? NO. but if he DOES choose to murder by shooting her, should she die? Yes, because that is how guns work. If she did not die even after getting shot 100 times, would that look good? No, that would be messed up. Should the gun shots effect the function? YES, otherwise we would be living in a magical world without ORDER to it and without cycle.

Simple short answer, Adam killed us, NOT God. Blame Adam and eve, don&#8217;t blame God. The only thing you can blame God for is giving free will, which is a good thing by the way. Free will is great to have. It keeps us from being robots.

Any questions to this?

 

[Jollybear]

As a believer in Eastern spirituality I disagree. In fact some times belief in God can be a hindrance in that matter since you are waiting for some future heaven that never gets here.

Tell me how eastern spirituality justifies or gives a foundation for morals?

And waiting for Jesus return or heaven to come to earth has nothing to do with morals by the way. It only has something to do with morals if that is ALL your doing is sitting around, not being active while you&#8217;re waiting for this.

But, can you justify morals? What is the foundation for morals in YOUR view? I need more then &#8220;eastern spirituality&#8221; details?

Nonsense secularism is about keeping government/society neutral to all beliefs and religions, if someone is a "secular fundamentalist" then they are no longer secular.

Keeping government and society neutral to all beliefs and religions is a fundamental goal or view of the secularist person. Thus, they are fundamental in there secularism, if they are consistent secularists.

How are they not fundamental?

Also how are ALL beliefs neutral in government and society? Anytime a government or someone in society makes a decision, it&#8217;s based on a belief or a view on something. And someone else may have a different view, therefore it&#8217;s NEVER neutral. Someone&#8217;s belief or view gets put forward whether we like it or not.

I see the God you describe as cruel and selfish. To me that isn't "perfect" it also means to me that even if Jehova is real, humanity can conceive of a better more caring God.

I asked you what was wrong with my statement, you did not show me what was wrong with it, you just made a new statement yourself.

Show me what is wrong with my statement here

&#8220;At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God&#8217;s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That&#8217;s why God said &#8220;do not use my name in vain&#8221;.&#8221;

Also I will deal with YOUR NEW statement based on it&#8217;s merit, as I do, I still want you to deal with my statement based on it&#8217;s merit.

What you see as cruel and selfish, is not cruel and selfish, it&#8217;s JUSTICE. Some criminals in some jails think it&#8217;s cruel how they are treated, is it cruel or is it justice? Just because they &#8220;SEE&#8221; it as cruel does not make it cruel. They are only seeing it that way because THEY are SELFISH.

Why do you think God is cruel and selfish for doing justice?

You think God should have NO justice, no discipline, no judgment?