Let's talk about Hell

[Webbster101]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

The problem arises when people first take the verses out of context, ie. read single verse instead of reading verses before and after.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revalations 20:11-15 (NIV)

This passage shows that all the dead are being judged no matter their size. All the dead were brought from the sea and hades (Hell) to be judged before God, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire for eternity along with any person that had not accepted Christ and asked forgivness for past wrongs. Hell is never actually described so I am unsure where you got your description from but if we were able to see what Hell would be like you might be right on the money.

I think the reason that Hell is called the lake of fire may be slightly to scare people nut also to show them that if they donot obey they will not enjoy the punishment. I don't know about you but when I disobeyed my parents I never enjoyed the punishment, this might be the same type of scenario. God, our Father is going to punish us for our disobedience and we will not enjoy it unless we have accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior.

I know I stuck the gospel in here but there are times it needs to be said.

 

[Danny Heim]

Whether one believes God created us or that we evolved, what I said is true for all (that our creativity is limited by various factors) -not just individuals. True. It is also true that our free will means nothing without the environment which we can manipulate -which is ALSO a manipulation outside ourselves that makes us what we are -whether by design or random circumstance.

If the collective humand mind ceases to exist -should we become extinct, let's say -it would no longer be perpetuated. It also had a beginning -whether slow or sudden.

Assuming we simply evolved...
should the human species avoid becoming extinct forever -which is extremely unlikely -the collective human mind (which tends to forget and/or doubt history) might be perpetuated, but individual minds are lost forever -until such time as we might understand how to keep this from happening -which would also require making the body perpetual, having a perpetual supply of bodies into which to download, or devising some method of self-storage or interface with mechanical bodies -(which doesn't sound fun to me). Regardless, those lost before this time would still be lost forever.

If God does exist, no one is lost.

If God does not exist, we can make mistakes that cannot be undone.

If God does exist, all things can be made new. If he does not exist, we are at the mercy of cosmic/natural events (at least for now, some might think -if we aren't taken out before we gain power over the universe). If he does, he has the power -should he also have the will -to manipulate cosmic/natural events -and eventually make us able to do the same. If he exists, this does mean he either causes natural/cosmic events -or allows them -including major disasters -but as his focus is not on this short life, and he has the ability to resurrect any, they are not truly as disasterous as we may think them to be.

There are many things which are impossible to man -which would not be impossible if a being exists which is not subject to human limitations.

Humanity should never give up trying to solve its problems -should never stop learning or trying. However, we may learn that we are incapable of the evolution of which you speak. If we simply evolved, we may find that nature -which has no will of its own -may supercede our own will to survive in any number of ways. We may also find that the will of one man may cause the destruction of many -perhaps all -other wills -even his own. This is a real possibility today. We may also find that we did not simply evolve -and that God was at the beginning -and is waiting at the end -to keep our inevitable end from happening.

All of these IFs, however, would fall away if we truly knew what happened before we existed. If God does not exist, we are essentially on our own. We are at the mercy of each others' "free will" -which doesn't always include mercy at all.
If God does exist, HIS free will -let's not forget to consider his free will -will would essentially count for more than our free will -just as the CEO of a company has more sway than someone in the mail room -or as a parent's free will must supercede that of a child -until it need not.

Whether any of this needs a God to exist or not -it either DID come to exist by the free will of God -or it did not. If it did come to exist by his free will, he may deem it necessary to use that free will to supercede ours -or take it away altogether if we refused to not destroy.
We humans take away peoples' free will daily by war, incarceration, execution, abuse, authority, and simple decisions. We cannot all have what we want when we want it -even here on earth -on a good day -the bigger picture must be considered -and we must be denied. (This relates to the commandment about covetousness, also).

I understand that some do not believe God exists -or simply don't know if he exists or not -but he either does or does not. I know he does -but understand you may think that to be impossible. For argument's sake, however... If he does exist, you will eventually know he exists. If he does not, I will eventually see that as true.

None of us can not think as we now think. All of us will think differently. Some of what we believe will remain -rightfully so -and some will not.

God (the universe) does exist. That is why we will evolve. We can do it easy, or we can do it hard. It can take a very, very, very long time. We may screw up and loose these bodies, and cause the loss of many other bodies, but we will come back. And eventually, all those "IFs" will be overcome. It just depends on how long we choose to screw around with it. Maybe we’ll get hit by a meteor and the slate wiped clean. But we'd come back to do it again, and be faced with the same choices. We have eternity to come around, but I'm tired of waiting, aren't you? We can make this world so much better and so easily (thinking in geologic time). But we are not going to get very far with the messed up belief systems we have now. In fact, they are de-evolving us at present.

 

[tarasan]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

well that isnt really the most popular version of hell so it hasnt really caught on except in select parts of our history...

so are you attack the concept of hell or just this idea?

 

[sojourner]

Yeah our buddy Ed would burn forever.

It's very easy for one who is "saved" and "not going to hell" to make such a statement. but for those who are "lost?"

Folks, the real "good news" is that God's kingdom has come near. Therefore, "hell" is irrelevant. "Lost" is irrelevant. Mortality is irrelevant.

 

[Webbster101]

Very cavalier of you.

Your "god" is an evil tyranical ... I can't even find the words...
cruel, heartless, psycopath.

The fact that you are so "a-ok" with this notion of inflicting literally endless amounts
of tortuous pain on ANY individual .... is a sad statement of your own psyche.

It is NOT an "ok" concept.

Anyway, it's innane... regardless of what you (or anyone) believes about it.

Im sure you did but did you read all the before mentioned points? God is not evil or cruel he is only judging us for our wrong doing just like our parents get mad when we steal from tham (or other things). How is it that you people can see an evil God or evil at all and never see how you have wronged others? It is not God's fault that some of us will end up in the lake of fire he created us without sin and then he gave us a way out of the lake of fire, without him you can't really say you know what will become of you when he comes again.

 

[Danny Heim]

That’s good, so you think my view of hell is good then?
No, it is just that it can be ignored and it seems like to me that it does not have much effect on our evolving. But hey, that's a guess Jollybear, I don't really know.

I don’t understand how we can’t LIKE each other even though we happen to believe different stuff?
We can, it is a matter of degree. The present degree is corrosive. That would be no big deal either, if we had time.

 

[sojourner]

Im sure you did but did you read all the before mentioned points? God is not evil or cruel he is only judging us for our wrong doing just like our parents get mad when we steal from tham (or other things). How is it that you people can see an evil God or evil at all and never see how you have wronged others? It is not God's fault that some of us will end up in the lake of fire he created us without sin and then he gave us a way out of the lake of fire, without him you can't really say you know what will become of you when he comes again.

Parents would not make their children suffer for ever. Why would a good God, who knows better than our parents, do such a thing? In fact, your statement makes God powerless to save us. I don't know about you, but my Bible makes it clear that God will save whom God will save, and that God loves us unconditionally.

If it's true that God gave us a way out, and if it's further true that we cannot help ourselves, doesn't it make sense that the way out has already been taken care of for us (grace)? And that it's not a matter of us "finding" the way, but a matter of recognizing that we are all under grace?

 

[Webbster101]

It's very easy for one who is "saved" and "not going to hell" to make such a statement. but for those who are "lost?"

Folks, the real "good news" is that God's kingdom has come near. Therefore, "hell" is irrelevant. "Lost" is irrelevant. Mortality is irrelevant.

Though you and me may stand together on some issues this is one we don't. Hell is rellavent because it could mean eternal seperation from God even for some Christians who refuse to follow what he said.

If Hell is irrelevant then so is heaven because they are both opposite ends of the spectrum, you can't have one without the other. For there to be a good there needs to be a evil, for there to be a right there needs to be a wrong (or left), they all need each other to exist.

 

[Danny Heim]

It don’t bring us together nor does it separate us, it has nothing to do with bringing us together or separating us. It’s what we believe in, we can however CHOOSE to come together to help in a noble task for the earth IF that is what we believe in. Believing in a hell won’t stop us from coming together, BELIEVING in NOT HELPING in a noble task for the earth WILL keep us from coming together. You see?

Well hey, what's keeping us? Let's get on with it.

 

[Webbster101]

Parents would not make their children suffer for ever. Why would a good God, who knows better than our parents, do such a thing? In fact, your statement makes God powerless to save us. I don't know about you, but my Bible makes it clear that God will save whom God will save, and that God loves us unconditionally.

If it's true that God gave us a way out, and if it's further true that we cannot help ourselves, doesn't it make sense that the way out has already been taken care of for us (grace)? And that it's not a matter of us "finding" the way, but a matter of recognizing that we are all under grace?

The problem is we have to choose to use that way out (escape route) if we don't we get stuck with our sins forever away from God, if we do we get to live in eternity with God in heaven. Yes, we were all given grace but we need to decide to accept it and it is only through his son that we are given it at judgment. Christ said that if we accepted the offer of eternal life he would intercede on our behalf, but if we did not accept the offer we will go to the lake of fire.

Sorry if I did not explain it well enough for you.!

 

[sojourner]

Hell is rellavent because it could mean eternal seperation from God even for some Christians who refuse to follow what he said.

and, yet, nothing can separate us from God's love...

If Hell is irrelevant then so is heaven because they are both opposite ends of the spectrum, you can't have one without the other.

You're forcing dualism onto something that is not dualist in nature. God's kingdom doesn't depend upon any sort of hell.

For there to be a good there needs to be a evil, for there to be a right there needs to be a wrong (or left), they all need each other to exist.

God is good. God does not need evil in order to exist. Light does not need dark in order to exist.

 

[sojourner]

The problem is we have to choose to use that way out (escape route) if we don't we get stuck with our sins forever away from God, if we do we get to live in eternity with God in heaven. Yes, we were all given grace but we need to decide to accept it and it is only through his son that we are given it at judgment. Christ said that if we accepted the offer of eternal life he would intercede on our behalf, but if we did not accept the offer we will go to the lake of fire.

Sorry if I did not explain it well enough for you.!

Grace does not depend upon our acceptance. Christ made the decision for us, because we could not make that decision for ourselves. God will search for us until God finds us, just like the good shepherd.

 

[tarasan]

and, yet, nothing can separate us from God's love...

your taking the verse out of context It is refering to the saved not to everyone

You're forcing dualism onto something that is not dualist in nature. God's kingdom doesn't depend upon any sort of hell.

there are plenty of scriputres which support this view how can you discount say the revelation scritprues which imply a hell or second death?

God is good. God does not need evil in order to exist. Light does not need dark in order to exist.

this is true in fact its exactly why he doesnt need those who commit evil so i fact this admission can be turned against you.

 

[Danny Heim]

well that isnt really the most popular version of hell so it hasnt really caught on except in select parts of our history...

so are you attack the concept of hell or just this idea?

Yes, I have found that out here on this site, to my surprise. I attack the concept of hell itself, but particularly this version. I also attack the concept that we have a God who would do such a thing. And the reason for doing that is because I feel it is retarding our evolving to a much needed higher consciousness, given the state of the world, i.e. climate change.

 

[tarasan]

Yes, I have found that out here on this site, to my surprise. I attack the concept of hell itself, but particularly this version. I also attack the concept that we have a God who would do such a thing. And the reason for doing that is because I feel it is retarding our evolving to a much needed higher consciousness, given the state of the world, i.e. climate change.

A god does this because his nature demands justice, and ultimately we deserve it, its what I find so hard about this subject is that people refuse to believe that they deserve it, and they call upon their own version of good to try and justify why they dont deserve such a place.

but ultimately in order to ask the question you are you must get into my faith and what we believe, we believe that every human being has fallin into sin, and evil and that God within his mercy has allowed us the chance to rekindle our relationship with him and recieve forgivenness, but ultimately if you refuse that and dont change then you are rejected as you rejected God and are sent away.

this Theology describes the human condition of sin, that we are all imperfect and that through God love he not only allows us to live in this life (natural Grace) but supercedes for us and lets just start a relationship with him again (supernatural grace)

but then again I suppose the biggest disagreement Im going to have with you is to convicne you that you deserve such treatment

 

[Webbster101]

Light does not need dark in order to exist.

It can not be called light if there is not darkness. Just like if there is not good there can't be anything to compare evil againest.

this may sound like dualism but it is not it is all based on comparisons to each other sorry if I did not explain my reasoning properlly.

 

[tarasan]

It can not be called light if there is not darkness. Just like if there is not good there can't be anything to compare evil againest.

this may sound like dualism but it is not it is all based on comparisons to each other sorry if I did not explain my reasoning properlly.

if there were no evil then there would be no need for a good true.

But are you limiting God to such labels?

 

[sojourner]

your taking the verse out of context It is refering to the saved not to everyone

Humanity is saved. Unless you think some people are not in the set of beings that are human...

there are plenty of scriputres which support this view how can you discount say the revelation scritprues which imply a hell or second death?

how can you discount the many, many scriptures that identify God as good and unconditionally loving?

this is true in fact its exactly why he doesnt need those who commit evil so i fact this admission can be turned against you.

God doesn't need any of us. But God loves all of us unconditionally and desires a relationship with all of us. I'd say that, if God is God, God's desires will ultimately be fulfilled.

A god does this because his nature demands justice, and ultimately we deserve it,

God's nature is love, and love is, ultimately, God's justice. also, "God does not punish as we deserve, but holds back God's hand.

its what I find so hard about this subject is that people refuse to believe that they deserve it, and they call upon their own version of good to try and justify why they dont deserve such a place.

One doesn't have to refuse to believe that they deserve it in order to refute the "fact" that God will punish most of God's children for ever. That flies directly in the face of extreme grace and extravagant hospitality.

but ultimately in order to ask the question you are you must get into my faith and what we believe, we believe that every human being has fallin into sin, and evil and that God within his mercy has allowed us the chance to rekindle our relationship with him and recieve forgivenness, but ultimately if you refuse that and dont change then you are rejected as you rejected God and are sent away.

And, yet, like the good shepherd, God will search for us until God finds us, and, like the Prodigal's father, God will wait patiently for each of us to return home, for God cares more for the lost than for the found.

this Theology describes the human condition of sin, that we are all imperfect and that through God love he not only allows us to live in this life (natural Grace) but supercedes for us and lets just start a relationship with him again (supernatural grace)

Yet, God made us good, and "if anyone sin, we have an Adovcate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the perfect offering for our sin -- and not only for our's, but for the sin of the whole world."

 

[sojourner]

It can not be called light if there is not darkness. Just like if there is not good there can't be anything to compare evil againest.

this may sound like dualism but it is not it is all based on comparisons to each other sorry if I did not explain my reasoning properlly.

God spoke light. God didn't define light against dark. Darkness cannot exist where there is light.

Good is not defined as how it is against evil. Good is identified as God.

 

[sojourner]

if there were no evil then there would be no need for a good true.

But are you limiting God to such labels?

God is good. Are you saying that God could not exist without evil first existing? Doesn't that call into question the very existence of God?