Let's talk about Hell

[Etritonakin]

God (the universe) does exist. That is why we will evolve. We can do it easy, or we can do it hard. It can take a very, very, very long time. We may screw up and loose these bodies, and cause the loss of many other bodies, but we will come back. And eventually, all those "IFs" will be overcome. It just depends on how long we choose to screw around with it. Maybe we’ll get hit by a meteor and the slate wiped clean. But we'd come back to do it again, and be faced with the same choices. We have eternity to come around, but I'm tired of waiting, aren't you? We can make this world so much better and so easily (thinking in geologic time). But we are not going to get very far with the messed up belief systems we have now. In fact, they are de-evolving us at present.

Okie dokie.

)*(&%)*&}()&^*^$*^%(*&_)*{)^*&$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just wrote a biggie, but forgot to copy it every now and again -hit the back button -will respond to the scientific aspects again later -when I don't want to smash the computer.

For now, let me say that I am not tired of waiting -not at all. I have learned to be content in any situation. I do not covet that which I should not have, can not have, can not have now, should not have -or might gain by compromise. I see people compromise daily to get what they want -and it just doesn't work -especially in the end. This contentment actually helps me make better decisions, and act toward the good of all -not just those who think as I do. I believe Christ will return soon to rule, but plan as if this will not happen in my lifetime -and assume responsibility for making this world better for everyone.
There are some things which would be wonderful to have and experience, but I do not require any of them to continue in contentment -and even more happiness than most people have. I believe I will live forever if I sincerely obey God -so there is time for any desire, but would not change any of this even if it were certain that death would be the end.

I do not feel uneasy when I have nothing -or feel the need to compromise even when those I care for are threatened -which they are -or when my livelihood is at stake. To compromise is to "devolve" as you put it -and even if God did not exist I would not want to do so. He does exist, however -the final decision is always his -and there is nothing which can be taken away that he cannot return.

When you try to do better, people tend to want to hurt you for some strange reason -not good for our "evolution"

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem is we have to choose to use that way out (escape route) if we don't we get stuck with our sins forever away from God, if we do we get to live in eternity with God in heaven. Yes, we were all given grace but we need to decide to accept it and it is only through his son that we are given it at judgment. Christ said that if we accepted the offer of eternal life he would intercede on our behalf, but if we did not accept the offer we will go to the lake of fire.
Sorry if I did not explain it well enough for you.!

And what is the definition of the lake of fire?
According to Rev 20v14; 21v9 the lake means: the 'second death'.

So, if we do not accept the offer, so to speak, we could end up in 'second death'. Death with no future life. Jesus destroys Satan [Hebrews 2v14 b]
Jesus proves to be the 'seed' of Genesis [3v15] that deals Satan [serpent] a fatal death bruise to his head crushing him out of existence. Romans 16v20

Besides an eternity in heaven for those of Revelation 5vs9,10 [little flock]
Jesus has [other sheep] the sheep-like ones of Matthew 25vs 32,40,46 that are alive on earth at the time of Jesus glory [Matt 16v27; 25v31], and the sheep-like ones remain alive on earth and keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth because they are still alive saying, "Salvation" because they are saved or 'come out' of the great tribulation.
[Rev 7v14; Matt 24v21] and will be part of the humble meek as Jesus promised that will inherit the earth. - Psalm 37vs11,19.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Whether or not you wake up in your present state is doubtful. You just wake up in a body of some kind and aligning with some species, maybe human maybe not, not likely…It matters not what you wind up in, YOU, are always there.

The prophet Daniel [12vs2,13] looked forward to waking up on resurrection morning, so to speak, awaken from the dust of the ground to everlasting life.
Daniel will come back as Daniel and can gain the original healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at creation.

As far as one 'always there', was Adam always there [here]?
Before creation Adam did Not exist.
After death Adam ceased to exist.
Adam will not have a resurrection to either heaven or earth.
We, on the other hand, being imperfect can have the resurrection hope of life in heaven, or everlasting life on earth free from sin and death.

 

[Etritonakin]

Not commenting -just posting related scripture.


Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not commenting -just posting related scripture.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Yes, and if we continue reading into chapter 20 v 14 and Rev 21v8 is the definition of the lake which is : second death.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
'torment' is not the same word as torture. The 'tormentor' of Matthew 18vs 34,30 was the jailer. The 'torment' was being imprisoned in second death.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Please notice it is the 'smoke' that ascends forever, not forever fire.
Isaiah 34v10 helps us understand that smoke can mean never to appear again as with the nation of Edom. There is not literal smoke there today but Edom was destroyed never to appear again.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Good point ^at 2 thess 1v9^ because please notice the punishment is not eternal smoke nor eternal fire but 'everlasting destruction' or annihilation.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Our work is not tested with literal fire. We can be refined as purified metal.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

REPLY: ^Yes ^ destroyed them, not preserved them alive in fire.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Re: yes, Matt 35v46 they go off into everlasting punishment not everlasting flames. The everlasting punishment as mentioned above at 2nd Thess 1v9 of everlasting destruction such as those of Psalm 92v7 destroyed or annihilated forever.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Fire symbol of destruction. Once burned down gone forever.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Yes, symbolic of total destruction, Burned up gone forever.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The word hell fire is often translated from the word Gehenna and not hell which is sheol or hades. Gehenna is a fitting symbol for hell fire because things were destroyed in that burning garbage dump until they were all gone.
Things were not kept burning forever in Gehenna.

Jesus believed that while he was in hell [not Gehenna] but hell, [sheol/hades] the common stone-cold grave of mankind, that Jesus would be in a deep sleep-like state until God would resurrect him. -Acts 2vs27,31. John 11vs11-14

 

[Danny Heim]

The prophet Daniel [12vs2,13] looked forward to waking up on resurrection morning, so to speak, awaken from the dust of the ground to everlasting life.
Daniel will come back as Daniel and can gain the original healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at creation.

As far as one 'always there', was Adam always there [here]?
Before creation Adam did Not exist.
After death Adam ceased to exist.
Adam will not have a resurrection to either heaven or earth.
We, on the other hand, being imperfect can have the resurrection hope of life in heaven, or everlasting life on earth free from sin and death.

That is a beautiful story.
I can cross correlate to my belief a little.

 

[Danny Heim]

Okie dokie.

)*(&%)*&}()&^*^$*^%(*&_)*{)^*&$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just wrote a biggie, but forgot to copy it every now and again -hit the back button -will respond to the scientific aspects again later -when I don't want to smash the computer.

For now, let me say that I am not tired of waiting -not at all. I have learned to be content in any situation. I do not covet that which I should not have, can not have, can not have now, should not have -or might gain by compromise. I see people compromise daily to get what they want -and it just doesn't work -especially in the end. This contentment actually helps me make better decisions, and act toward the good of all -not just those who think as I do. I believe Christ will return soon to rule, but plan as if this will not happen in my lifetime -and assume responsibility for making this world better for everyone.
There are some things which would be wonderful to have and experience, but I do not require any of them to continue in contentment -and even more happiness than most people have. I believe I will live forever if I sincerely obey God -so there is time for any desire, but would not change any of this even if it were certain that death would be the end.

I do not feel uneasy when I have nothing -or feel the need to compromise even when those I care for are threatened -which they are -or when my livelihood is at stake. To compromise is to "devolve" as you put it -and even if God did not exist I would not want to do so. He does exist, however -the final decision is always his -and there is nothing which can be taken away that he cannot return.

When you try to do better, people tend to want to hurt you for some strange reason -not good for our "evolution"

Nothing wrong with any of that, I can relate. One can be content, and still grow, in fact, the more content I am the more I grow. But this is on a personal level. In this thread I am speaking to our collective mind, a very powerful force in the universe, and with the human species itself. You know what it is without me telling you, we all know the collective mind. Just that many of us don't pay it much attention, and right now, it needs some major attention.

 

[Danny Heim]

A god does this because his nature demands justice, and ultimately we deserve it, its what I find so hard about this subject is that people refuse to believe that they deserve it, and they call upon their own version of good to try and justify why they dont deserve such a place.

but ultimately in order to ask the question you are you must get into my faith and what we believe, we believe that every human being has fallin into sin, and evil and that God within his mercy has allowed us the chance to rekindle our relationship with him and recieve forgivenness, but ultimately if you refuse that and dont change then you are rejected as you rejected God and are sent away.

this Theology describes the human condition of sin, that we are all imperfect and that through God love he not only allows us to live in this life (natural Grace) but supercedes for us and lets just start a relationship with him again (supernatural grace)

but then again I suppose the biggest disagreement Im going to have with you is to convicne you that you deserve such treatment

Oh yea I gotcha. It's a belief. And my aggression towards it is obvious, I just have the concern that it contributes to the inability to evolve onto another level we so badly need. Whether or not your beliefs are right or wrong, or misguided or guided perfect, their ultimate effect on our raising to a higher consciousness is quite profound in my opinion. And I normally would say “so what”, but we have an emergency situation with climate change and many other failures in our paradigms. We need to move on. So if it turns out that we can move on even while we have those sorts of beliefs about, then I am happy for you and me. But so far, we seem to be moving backwards instead of forwards.

 

[Hawkins]

You could say, for me I figure I already have the "New Covenant as a gift". When one sees clearly that we are a planet miraculously circulating (actually we are just speeding past each other back and forth, I get into that...) Sorry for the interruption.

Anyway, we receive gifts, they come in many ways, all can be like Covenants. I have made many Covenants with Gaia. This earth is alive and is a being. Whoops, sorry, now I’m preaching. J

It’s all what you experience. All these GUYS are powerful. I may not get my power from Jehovah, and I may not agree Jesus was what Christian’s brought him to be, he was but an avatar to follow, and we’ve had many. All wonderful; except, um, well, ggee I-I. All right, JEHOVAH!

That guy, or at least the manner he is portrayed in the Old Testament….man, he was a bad dude. But many Gods have been bad as well; the list is very long and goes back at least 7000 years. But I am just saying, I can’t see how Christians are fixed are on their God being the all in one guy. So does Krishna, Buddha, Wonkon Tonka and on and on. But none of them are like you guys, man, you can’t go anywhere, you are stuck in three places in the universe: earth, heaven and hell. That’s a small universe. And so it goes with your dogma, there is no penetrating it, crossing it over to other religions, just you their alone at the top of the heap. That’s a heavy burden to bear. It is so much lighter to not carry any load at all, just walk along side instead and enjoy the view.

Dang it! I’m preaching again, “Martha!--get my”…..”No get my”…..I gota go.

Like I said all the times. As long as it's your own consent decision, no one is supposed to be more caring about your own life than you yourself are.

That said, to me it's your misunderstanding about Christianity which hinders your judgment. Say you hinted here that God is cruel in OT, yet that's just purely your misunderstanding. Do you need me to give you an explanation to show you how you come to your conclusion by misunderstanding?!

 

[Etritonakin]

The word hell fire is often translated from the word Gehenna and not hell which is sheol or hades. Gehenna is a fitting symbol for hell fire because things were destroyed in that burning garbage dump until they were all gone.
Things were not kept burning forever in Gehenna.

Jesus believed that while he was in hell [not Gehenna] but hell, [sheol/hades] the common stone-cold grave of mankind, that Jesus would be in a deep sleep-like state until God would resurrect him. -Acts 2vs27,31. John 11vs11-14

The "lake of fire" is one thing -used for many purposes. When one is cast there -it will hurt. This will produce different things -even as this life produced different things. Some will feel it -and turn -and some will not.

If one cast there STILL does not turn -they will eventually be utterly destroyed -you must consider all scripture that applies -but when one is cast alive into a lake of fire and brimstone, it will hurt! Even if you think they will be utterly destroyed -it will hurt until that time! Still -the bible says that some will be SAVED -YET SO AS BY FIRE. God is not afraid for you to feel pain to bring you to repentance -look around at the world!

Some people are already malleable -some need a fire and hammer!

 

[Danny Heim]

Like I said all the times. As long as it's your own consent decision, no one is supposed to be more caring about your own life than you yourself are.

That said, to me it's your misunderstanding about Christianity which hinders your judgment. Say you hinted here that God is cruel in OT, yet that's just purely your misunderstanding. Do you need me to give you an explanation to show you how you come to your conclusion by misunderstanding?!

Well actually I find it hard to believe I even have to explain. It is like having a Gallbladder attach, how does one describe the pain, you can't, you just say it freaking hurts! But I'll try. If you truly looked outside of this earth and saw where we were...Well anyway. I wish I could help you with your misunderstandings. And what you've said above in many ways is valid. It just shocks me that you would ask me if I misunderstand. Your religion is very easy to understand, I'm sorry, I don't mean it as an insult. Your God is easy to understand, why you believe what you do is easy to understand. BUT, you ain't the only ones out here believing in something.

 

[Hawkins]

Well actually I find it hard to believe I even have to explain. It is like having a Gallbladder attach, how does one describe the pain, you can't, you just say it freaking hurts! But I'll try. If you truly looked outside of this earth and saw where we were...Well anyway. I wish I could help you with your misunderstandings. And what you've said above in many ways is valid. It just shocks me that you would ask me if I misunderstand. Your religion is very easy to understand, I'm sorry, I don't mean it as an insult. Your God is easy to understand, why you believe what you do is easy to understand. BUT, you ain't the only ones out here believing in something.

Why not just say it plainly that "your God is cruel" such that I can explain to you the contrary. All you can say here is that we differ in faith, that's it. Which I know. While you think that you didn't misunderstand Christianity which I have to disagree. It is because by reading through your own wordings that you don't seem to understand what Christianity is though you think you understand.

While I said that you misunderstood Christianity, and you said that it's me who misunderstood?!!! Geez, misunderstood what?! Atheism as a religion?!

 

[SARAYA]

hell is you, you is hell. You always in the hell if you don't complete your life, job or your charge. But in this world not have the perfect life or flawless person. The acceptance in yourself or your life in the best way to get free from hell.

 

[Etritonakin]

hell is you, you is hell. You always in the hell if you don't complete your life, job or your charge. But in this world not have the perfect life or flawless person. The acceptance in yourself or your life in the best way to get free from hell.

 

[Etritonakin]

God (the universe) does exist. That is why we will evolve. We can do it easy, or we can do it hard. It can take a very, very, very long time. We may screw up and loose these bodies, and cause the loss of many other bodies, but we will come back. And eventually, all those "IFs" will be overcome. It just depends on how long we choose to screw around with it. Maybe we’ll get hit by a meteor and the slate wiped clean. But we'd come back to do it again, and be faced with the same choices. We have eternity to come around, but I'm tired of waiting, aren't you? We can make this world so much better and so easily (thinking in geologic time). But we are not going to get very far with the messed up belief systems we have now. In fact, they are de-evolving us at present.

If we simply evolved... it cannot be said that we will come back -not even once -and especially not again and again. For this to happen, every detail of our evolution would have to be duplicated. One might assume our returning after one extinction would be inevitable -or after any number of extinctions -but would the chance of this be any greater than it never happening? Add to this the fact that present thinking believes our universe will eventually collapse. It is not our choice how long we "screw around with it" -we are at the mercy of powers far greater than ourselves. We would probably go extinct BECAUSE we "screw around with it" -rather than doing what is right. It is not a given that we would eventually get it right. We do not have eternity. If evolution is as science says it is, we may only have one chance. It is not a given that any life would ever happen again -much less intelligent life. There is a time limit -the crises we face threaten our existence -and the overall crisis can well be called our "srewing around with it". We need to stop "screwing around with it" to survive. We "screw around with it" in an attempt to have power over it, but the opposite is happening.

It's the ol' "monkey" trap..... let go of the banana!

 

[Etritonakin]

Monkey Trap:

1. A trap to capture various monkeys used around the world which consists of a staked container with a hole cut into it just wide enough for a monkey to stick it's empty hand into. The container is baited with something attractive to the monkey. Monkey reaches for bait and then will not release the bait and cannot pull it's hand out of the trap with bait in hand. It is then captured.

(even the "matches" are a monkey trap [Labor Ready -that's not just my theory!])

 

[tarasan]

Oh yea I gotcha. It's a belief. And my aggression towards it is obvious, I just have the concern that it contributes to the inability to evolve onto another level we so badly need. Whether or not your beliefs are right or wrong, or misguided or guided perfect, their ultimate effect on our raising to a higher consciousness is quite profound in my opinion. And I normally would say “so what”, but we have an emergency situation with climate change and many other failures in our paradigms. We need to move on. So if it turns out that we can move on even while we have those sorts of beliefs about, then I am happy for you and me. But so far, we seem to be moving backwards instead of forwards.

what other level? Hell has nothing to do with climate change or other negative impacts, that people who are too lazy to try something that will change how they live, not a religious doctrine.....

 

[tarasan]

Humanity is saved. Unless you think some people are not in the set of beings that are human...

where does it say in the bibel that ALL of humanity are saved?

how can you discount the many, many scriptures that identify God as good and unconditionally loving?

I dont discount that but ultiamely if they do something that is wrong God will still punish them, unconditionally loving and hell are perfectly cohesive, Ultimately god loves us enough to give us the choice whether of not to follow him and doesnt force us to it, however with that gift also comes the fact that we will have to pay for what we do. also unconditional love is fulfiled by the doctrine of natural Grace look it up.

God doesn't need any of us. But God loves all of us unconditionally and desires a relationship with all of us. I'd say that, if God is God, God's desires will ultimately be fulfilled.

God ultimate desire is that we make the choice freely, so if we refuse to come into the relationsip with us he wont force us.

God's nature is love, and love is, ultimately, God's justice. also, "God does not punish as we deserve, but holds back God's hand.

Again this is only partially true he holds back his hand for this life, but when we die God does punish us for our sins, Read revelation.

One doesn't have to refuse to believe that they deserve it in order to refute the "fact" that God will punish most of God's children for ever. That flies directly in the face of extreme grace and extravagant hospitality.

The extreme grace your saying is natural grace theology, God permitts us to live in this life even though we deserve to be wiped off the face of it, that is extravagant grace, however ultiamtely justice must to done so in the end we either side with him or against him.

And, yet, like the good shepherd, God will search for us until God finds us, and, like the Prodigal's father, God will wait patiently for each of us to return home, for God cares more for the lost than for the found.

Yet, God made us good, and "if anyone sin, we have an Adovcate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the perfect offering for our sin -- and not only for our's, but for the sin of the whole world."

awesome verses please? this seems to just be your thoughts pn a page with no acedemic theology or verses to back it up, because as we know are could give you a good long list of verses supporting hell, can you say the same?

 

[tarasan]

God is good. Are you saying that God could not exist without evil first existing? Doesn't that call into question the very existence of God?

no .... Im going to ask you to think and read what im saying ok?.... the only reason we define God as good is because there is evil to compare him too, if there were no evil then there would be no need to define God as anything other than himself, because there would be no opposite.

 

[Danny Heim]

If we simply evolved... it cannot be said that we will come back -not even once -and especially not again and again. For this to happen, every detail of our evolution would have to be duplicated. One might assume our returning after one extinction would be inevitable -or after any number of extinctions -but would the chance of this be any greater than it never happening? Add to this the fact that present thinking believes our universe will eventually collapse. It is not our choice how long we "screw around with it" -we are at the mercy of powers far greater than ourselves. We would probably go extinct BECAUSE we "screw around with it" -rather than doing what is right. It is not a given that we would eventually get it right. We do not have eternity. If evolution is as science says it is, we may only have one chance. It is not a given that any life would ever happen again -much less intelligent life. There is a time limit -the crises we face threaten our existence -and the overall crisis can well be called our "srewing around with it". We need to stop "screwing around with it" to survive. We "screw around with it" in an attempt to have power over it, but the opposite is happening.

It's the ol' "monkey" trap..... let go of the banana!

Nobody said we have to come exactly the same way, next time we may have one eye and eight legs and breath sulfur, and it could be on another planet in another solar system, or no system at all. It's a big universe, anything can happen. It's not the body that you are, YOU are always there though.