Let's talk about Hell

[Etritonakin]

Well, I see it like this. If I were going to make something that I could really love and that love last a long time. Then I would have made humans with free will do as they choose and let them grow as far as they wish to, that or die off, whichever comes first. That way I could watch and be fascinated with what they come up with. It might take billions of years, but eventually they might would see the light and grow. That would be fun to watch. And there is nothing the matter with God entertaining him/her/it self.

You have to remember, it's a big universe, God has plenty to get off on besides us.

Perhaps you might consider the difference between "love" and "getting off".
Why should God enjoy the fact that we choose to destroy the creation and ourselves?

If you saw a fish out of water, would you help it back to the water -or watch it flop around in love -waiting to see if it made it back to the water?

If there were no fish out of water, would you find one and throw it out of the water so you could watch it flop around???????

(I know some people you should meet! -or maybe you're one of the ones I'm thinking about.)

Oh, please -please evolve soon!!!!

 

[Danny Heim]

Perhaps you might consider the difference between "love" and "getting off".
Why should God enjoy the fact that we choose to destroy the creation and ourselves?

If you saw a fish out of water, would you help it back to the water -or watch it flop around in love -waiting to see if it made it back to the water?

If there were no fish out of water, would you find one and throw it out of the water so you could watch it flop around???????

(I know some people you should meet! -or maybe you're one of the ones I'm thinking about.)

Oh, please -please evolve soon!!!!

No, it would be more joy to watch it work its own way back into the water. You are putting extras into this. I said no interference, so God would not throw one out to watch it flop; I never said anything like that. God is not here to physically help us, that's our job to do ourselves, that's the whole point. God will enjoy it if we do not destroy ourselves but instead learn to live and grow. But it's entirely up to us to do that, that's free will. Big, big difference from what you accused me of saying, not even in the same ball park.

It's really not so different from what you are saying. Just you have God interfering, I don't, but the results are the same. If we fail, I am sure God would be sad about it, but like I said, God has these gigs going all over the universe, it doesn’t have to be earth people that succeed right now. God will still get the kicks somewhere if we can’t give them. But it will not be God’s fault, it will be ours. Why should God feel all that sorry for us? We’d get another chance in about a billion years anyway. God has lots of time.

And what is this I am talking about? IT IS NOTHING BUT A BELIEF. Just like you have, it’s just a belief. The difference between you and me is I don’t have to be right about mine, there are no requirements to be so. If I am wrong? So what. Something else happens? Big deal. I am not worried, because it is easy for me to say, I don’t know, I only believe. I may get to know someday, but for now, having a belief is good enough, besides, not knowing for sure gives me something to grow towards. Actually, not knowing is exciting and believing is fun. And we as a species, will make huge leaps in our evolving as soon as we can collectively admit, we don't know.

 

[look3467]

So you're "benevolent" god allows unnecessary suffering?:sleep:

Considering the fact that you and I are made in the image of God, and are as gods, we are therefore separate entities from God,

Suffering is a designed default as a means by which the spirit in us is stimulated to seek out God.

Whether we see it as that or not, makes no difference, for suffering is common to all.

If we want to blame someone for suffering, then most logically, we blame God, for after all, He placed us in this mess anyways.

But beware, for suffering may be a joyous occasion.

Ref: Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations (Sufferings) also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Spirit) which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Whether we deserve it or not, Christ died for us.

Question is: can we see it?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Etritonakin]

No, it would be more joy to watch it work its own way back into the water.

....I said no interference

....from what you accused me of saying.

..we don't know

And if the fish obviously could not make it back into the water, you would leave it?

God does "interfere" constantly. He does not simply wander the universe observing, and not putting fish back into the water which obviously can't make it back themselves.

I did not accuse you of saying anything. I asked. Note the question marks.

I do know.

It doesn't matter what you say. It's happening (and I count it all joy -though my desire is that no fish remain out of water -and work toward that end -but some fish are stubborn -and refuse. They keep jumping out of the water -thinking they do well. THEN is the time to leave them! Perhaps after they cook on the rocks and are then resurrected, they will think differently -perhaps).

"Don't throw me in that there briar patch!"

 

[Jollybear]

Danny_Heim

Yes, it can be ignored, but why do you think my view is NOT good?

Your view of hell is fine, that is, if there has to be one. What makes it wrong in my view, is it still put us in a tyrannical situation. We still are faced with a God who demands to be bowed down to or else.

I have a comment/argument and a question

Comment/argument first: tyrannical HUMAN rulers are usually not that good because they don’t make any of their decision making based on getting information or input from other brains. They make a decision based on their own perspectives and therefore their decision making is likely not balanced and therefore will effect society in a bad way. But in God’s case, he is the BRAIN OF ALL BRAINS. He does not need another brain to give him input. He don’t NEED anyone’s council since he knows everything there is to know. His perspective is PERFECTLY BALANCED already without the help of either angels, demons or humans or any other creatures. Therefore any decisions he does make are done based on perfect balance.

Secondly, tyrannical rulers can base their decisions not just on a imbalanced perspective, but rather on a selfish ambition. They don’t care about society, so they will abuse them, over tax them, get rich off them, they are selfish. If anyone rebels, they will be killed. God however is NOT selfish, God cares and loves society and people and everything else he created. So you will ask why then does he not stop suffering if he cares? The answer to that varies from case to case. Some suffering is caused by one’s own free will decision which God GAVE and will not take it away. Secondly sometimes suffering is caused by SOMEONE ELSES free will decision that God will not take away. Thirdly sometimes suffering is caused by HUMAN JUSTICE which is based on free will, which God will not take away. Fourthly human suffering is caused sometimes by God’s justice, which God WILL NOT WAVE. Some don’t like that last one, but hey, who likes discipline? It’s painful, yea, but it’s needed.

Thirdly tyrannical rulers CAN be caring and intelligent. So they can love and care for people and not just be selfish and they can have a balanced perspective and then make GOOD decisions based on a proper understanding of society and how it works. So if it’s POSSIBLE for a human being to do this, how much more so with a God?

And this brings me to my question now: why is it wrong for God to be a tyrannical ruler? Also how are you defining tyrannical ruler? Do you mean tyrant as in ONE person ruling? If so, why is that bad to you that there is ONE God ruling? And if you are defining tyrant as a oppressive ruler, how does God being ONE ruler imply he is oppressive? Why is he oppressive?

Like why do you have a problem with God saying follow me or else?

Well, take me and you for example, can’t we LIKE each other even though I have a view of hell? Do you think it’s corrosive in our case between me and you personally?

No, I don't. It is the collective mind I am concerned about. You seem like a fine person.

Oh ok. And you think I am a fine person? Ahhh, that is sweet hehe

Hey, I agree with you, we should all come together and help with a noble task, hands down, I’m with you. BUT (BUT) me agreeing with you will not make others agree with US. Plus you have to bring into this equation other factors. Some people will not come together for reasons already mentioned, which are selfish reasons, they don’t care to take the time or funds or energy to help, they are selfish. The other factors are some don’t KNOW that the earth needs saving. Other factors are that some do know, but they don’t have the funds to help. Other factors are some know, but they don’t know how to go about doing it. Other factors are that some folk don’t BELIEVE the scientists prediction that the earth is in trouble. And yes another factor is what you mentioned, SOME STUPID religious folk think it don’t matter since God is coming back and going to renew it all anyway, so no need to help. Still yet another factor could be that some will disagree with the METHOD used to help in this task.

So those are ALL the factors you have to bring into this as well, if you are going to have ANY hope of bringing or persuading others to come together to save the earth. Everyone has different reasons why they are not coming together. And those reasons are not just a belief in a hell.
That is all very true. And I'm working on that.
This discussion of Hell in this thread is actually just an example of the obstacles we face in bringing ourselves to a higher consciousness. We have tons of work to do, if we are going to succeed in time.

It’s a big work ahead of you. A noble one, yes, but a big one. But, there is hope, there is always hope. And it’s not just a dead hope, it’s a powerful, driving hope.

 

[Jollybear]

No_body

I don't remember typing pink unicorns, you must be thinking of someone else using unicorns as an example. I'm saying to compare the two ideas. Hell is just as valid as the idea of unicorns from the info we have.

I think you misunderstood me. I hear this argument about pink unicorns said by OTHER people too much, I refuted it, I have yet to receive a response to my refutation to it yet. I did not refute it to you though.

For you, I am simply asking for the source or the book that mentions the pink unicorn since you said it is mentioned in old books. Did I misunderstand you? What did you mean by the quote you said, which is again
“unicorns, sure there are signs of them in old books”?

Also I don’t know of the evidence or lack of it for unicorns or not, so I will not say anything about it. But I do know of the evidence for a hell. So unicorns are a different case then hell. Lets deal with the case of hell, not unicorns right now. Could we do that?

Using empirical theory, no they aren't equal.

How is intelligent design not equal in evidence or theory for the data to evolution? Details please?

Empirical theory?

You misunderstand it's not that "atheist" i.e. science cherry picks it's that it only goes with things that are provable and have evidence to them. If there was some valid proof that God actually created the world, science would accept it and start teaching it. But there isn't so until then it must remain silent.

How is there no evidence for intelligent design but yet there is evidence for evolution? How?

You don't teach the round earth and the flat earth theory for instance and let them decide. You teach critical thinking skills and what's provable.

Again, as much as I disagree with the flat earth view, STILL it’s inconsistent to tell the kids to think critically and yet then ask them NOT to question certain things you teach dogmatically. Right? Let them hear about the flat earth view and then hear the round earth one and then let them think critically. TEST there critical thinking by LETTING them hear all sides of stuff. Either that, or don’t teach them critical thinking skills, because that is not what you want from them anyway, what you would truly want is for them to accept everything you say without questioning it. Let’s be consistent, otherwise were just going to confuse the kids. Now some won’t care about being confused and some will.

Carte Blanche means blank slate. What you are asking for science to do is exactly what it does. Sure there are arrogant scientist out there who won't even deign to take the question of the supernatural seriously but that isn't science fault.

Ok, if science actually does this, then I agree with it and I am glad. I agree with you here if this is what they it’s about. I also agree with you that some scientists are arrogant and false to the scientific method, yet they like to claim they follow it.

No it isn't, it's based on observable facts and evidence. Scientist can duplicate evolution with controlled experiments in a lab. You can't duplicate an experiment with God creating the universe.

Evolution is based on observable facts and evidence hey? I have never observed a micro organism turn into a man, never. I have never observed it happening within the span of millions of years either, because I can’t live that long to OBSERVE IT, neither can you nor all those scientists, can they? Also any tests they do and have done never caused evolution to happen, sure, maybe some little tiny changes, but those happen without experiments when people and animals give birth to young.

Also based on your standard of evidence for evolution here, well intelligent design has the SAME KIND of evidence for it. Science has done experiments with trying to create life, one I heard recently about “synthia”, but when they designed this life form, it was not made by evolution, it was made by INTILLIGENT TEAM OF SCIENTISTS. Thus, “intelligent design”.

I don't try to refute it because I have a problem with the entire premise. I've already stated multiple times that I see this as selfish, evil, and tyrannically not befitting a so called "just perfect God" my point of view differs from yours, there is nothing else to debate.

Yea, I know you have a problem with the premise (that part I already know, and you just keep letting me know it over and over again) but why do you have a problem with the premise? I also already know you think it’s selfish and evil and tyrannical and that God is not perfect or just in your view. But WHY do you think that way? That is what I WAN’T TO KNOW. Tell me something I do not YET know? You know?

Do you even know why you have this view?

This is a pretty big decision your making here by having that view, therefore it would be wise on your part to find a refutation for my arguments.

Because that's just how I see things? Your point of view allows for God to do anything since it involves never questioning him and simply stating the little you do question as the only way to look at the matter and as the definite proof. There is no arguing with that logic.

So you have this view just because that is just how you see things? You have no reasons for why you see things this way? Is that what your telling me? Because that is what I am hearing from you.

Also your misunderstanding my view and putting words in my mouth that I did not say. I did not say my view involves allowing for God to do anything because in my view God will NOT do JUST ANYTHING. He will do things based on his wisdom, knowledge and character and nature and will. Also I did not say you could not question God, go ahead and shoot, question all you want, but a question should have the motive of receiving an answer, not just questioning out of rebelling against the deity because you don’t like him just for the sake of that you don’t like him, but you don’t know why you don’t. You know?

You told me that God is not just for letting us die because of Adam. That was your premise and your argument was that we did not eat the fruit, so just let Adam die, not us. I responded to that premise and that argument by making my own argument against it. I said God set it up to have responsibility within relationships, therefore hurt can be potentially done both by free will and by value. If hurt could not be done, relationships would have no value even if we did CHOOSE by free will to try to hurt, it would never happen. That is a magical, weird kind of world, it takes the value out of relationships. You did not respond to this argument that I made, thus you do not have a STRONG case.

Care to refute my argument?

 

[Jollybear]

Why? Because we give it importance. In a more broad sense because evolutionary wise we are meant to increase ourselves and this is best done by regarding all of humanity as a tribe and bettering ourselves.

So it’s important just because you say it’s important? Really? Why do you say it’s important now? Tell me something I don’t yet know.

Also concerning the broad sense, why are we MEANT to increase ourselves? Why does evolution have an INTENT or a “meant” to increase us? As if it had a mind of it’s own?

That is why I granted that religion has been good as a starting crutch but we are coming to a point where we can simply drop the superstitions.

First off you assume that religion has all superstitions, you don’t know that, so why drop it?
Secondly, if religion is not TRUE, why the heck has it been GOOD as a starting crutch? Is LIES ever GOOD?

1: What is truth?

Truth is the ultimate reality of all realities. Truth is simply that which is real or true or correct, or factual, or right. It’s not false. It holds ALL the answers to all life’s questions.

2: By basing that decision on a neutral humanist value that treats all beliefs equal

How are all beliefs treated equal though? That is never done. Let me give you a simple example using the forum.

If someone breaks the rules of the forum and the administrator warns them not to do that or else. And then they keep breaking the rule, then the administrator asks them why they are doing that? Then they say, well it’s simply my BELIEF to do that. Is there ANY possible way for the administrator to treat the members belief as equal as the others who believe in KEEPING the rules?

Change is important because it's how we continue to survive and grow.

Changes are good as long as they stay within the boundaries of reality (truth). You can change your job (your still in reality) you can change your style of hair (your still in reality) you can change your friends (your still in reality) you can change your clothes (your still in reality) you can change your living room around (your still in reality) you can change how you carry yourself, from more quite to more talkative (your still in reality) but if you change what you BELIEVE you may or may not be in reality then. Also if you change your practice which is rooted in your belief, you may or may not be in reality. You are only in reality in regards to your belief IF your belief is CORRECT or TRUE OR REAL. So change is only GOOD if you change your belief from falsehood to TRUTH. Change is BAD if you change your belief from truth to falsehood. So, no, you won’t ALWAYS continue to survive and grow if you change your belief.

How do you figure otherwise?

The need for a God is rooted in things wanting to stay the same forever,

The same forever? Your missing the whole point, it’s not that we want things to remain the same forever, it’s that we want the TRUE beliefs to stay the same forever, and then GROW our understanding OF truth more and more into the realm of forever. You see? Truth will stay the same forever no matter what we believe because well after all it’s TRUTH and it will stay the same. But we want our belief in the truth to stay the same forever and our understanding of it, not to stay the same, but to GROW in understanding truth more and more.

fear of death,

Hold on their, your making assumptions about people now. Your assuming that all religious folks fear death, so they make up comfortable beliefs in order to sooth there fear of death. How do you know that is the motivation of everyone who believes something?

Secondly, some people, LIKE MYSELF believe in a afterlife not based on a fear of death but based on near death experiences and a personal out of body experience that I myself had. I believe it based on the fact that I HONESTLY believe it, not based on a fear of death.

the want of immortality and power.

Again your assuming the motives of all, you don’t know this. Yes, admitted in this case I want immortality, I don’t want to just be in the grave unconsciously. But that is not why I BELIEVE in immortality, I don’t believe it based on my DESIRE, even though that IS my desire in this case, but the belief itself does not stem from that desire, it stems from the fact that I really honestly based on evidence believe in a afterlife.

Also the part about power, I don’t desire power, what’s this thing about power? I’m not a minister or a bishop, I just have a simple labor job, I’m not looking for power and to have high influence. Yet I still believe this. Many others don’t crave the power either. Actually TRUE religion is NOT MOTIVATED by power, it’s motivated by love, care, honesty and truth and freedom. Get off this thing about power.

To me the biblical God is dangerous because it stagnates us culturally and gives people the surety that their truth is forever the only one true truth, and that is everything that science is not about, which is about humbling yourself to the mysteries and laws of the universe.

This is a misunderstanding of God and the bible. The bible is not trying to stagnate us culturally. It’s not against investigating and building civilization, absolutely not. Also we do humble ourselves and realize we don’t know and understand everything, we are honest where we don’t know something. But some things we DO know and some things we DO believe and those beliefs are based on good evidence. That is not being PROUD, that is based on being rational. Humbling ourselves does not mean staying agnostic, it means to realize there is some mystery, but there is good reasons, evidence and we should not gamble with truth, so it takes a leap as well.

How does religion stagnate us? Tell me that?

 

[Jollybear]

As for the rest of your argument I just disagree because once again that is the way I see it from my perspective.

So in other words you disagree because you disagree. That don’t tell me nothing.

I've read the bible, just because I don't get out of it what you do doesn't make my opinion of it wrong.

Yes it does make your opinion of it wrong because you’re not taking into account other parts Of it. You’re doing what basically a cult would do, cherry pick verses and then build a religion out of it. If you’re going to formulate an opinion of the bible you first have to take into account both the broad context of the whole book and all the little contexts of each chapter. And all the things said. That is making a WISE kind of opinion, and not making a foolish opinion.

Why is yours supposedly the objective "truth" especially when there is no real evidence for it other than a feeling you get and share with others?

Mine is the objective truth because first off, I take into account EVERYTHING the bible says as a whole, you didn’t. Secondly mine is the objective truth because there is evidence for it other than a fussy feeling I get and share with others. The evidence is history, corroborating history, archeology (lots of it, YES, LOTS OF IT). Also there is spiritual experiences that confirm it, and also miracles that are witnessed. Now we can get into all this, but it would take a lot of time, but these points are VALID and very STRONG. It’s not wise to brush them off.

 

[Etritonakin]

The same forever? Your missing the whole point, it’s not that we want things to remain the same forever, it’s that we want the TRUE beliefs to stay the same forever, and then GROW our understanding OF truth more and more into the realm of forever. You see? Truth will stay the same forever no matter what we believe because well after all it’s TRUTH and it will stay the same. But we want our belief in the truth to stay the same forever and our understanding of it, not to stay the same, but to GROW in understanding truth more and more.

Not to mention that God wants us to understand unchangeable truth in order for us to endlessly create throughout the entire universe -so that we might not make a mess of the whole thing as we have the earth. Acknowledging that some things never change and SHOULD NEVER change will liberate us and make infinite creativity feasible. That is as opposite from "things staying the same" as it can get!

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (KJV)

That's a lot of real estate!

Romans 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.(NAS)

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vilebody, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)

 

[Danny Heim]

And if the fish obviously could not make it back into the water, you would leave it?

God does "interfere" constantly. He does not simply wander the universe observing, and not putting fish back into the water which obviously can't make it back themselves.

I did not accuse you of saying anything. I asked. Note the question marks.

I do know.

It doesn't matter what you say. It's happening (and I count it all joy -though my desire is that no fish remain out of water -and work toward that end -but some fish are stubborn -and refuse. They keep jumping out of the water -thinking they do well. THEN is the time to leave them! Perhaps after they cook on the rocks and are then resurrected, they will think differently -perhaps).

"Don't throw me in that there briar patch!"

I really don't know either, Etritonakin. it's a mystery. They sure are jumping out of the water, that's for sure. It's like watching a movie. But many times in our history, great upheavel has also made for great change. Let's hope that day is coming.

while falling down

as trickery in wind
one twist to bend another
we reside in falling embrace
holding on to nothing;
just embrace itself

in these cold blankets
and tin cans
laying hand to shoulder
we have fallen
now wind is ours
and all winds though cold
do blister away

 

[Etritonakin]

I really don't know either, Etritonakin. it's a mystery. They sure are jumping out of the water, that's for sure. It's like watching a movie. But many times in our history, great upheavel has also made for great change. Let's hope that day is coming.

while falling down

as trickery in wind
one twist to bend another
we reside in falling embrace
holding on to nothing;
just embrace itself

in these cold blankets
and tin cans
laying hand to shoulder
we have fallen
now wind is ours
and all winds though cold
do blister away

Your reluctance to actually make a point is intriguing -as is your general evasiveness.

It's not a mystery at all -that seems to intrigue you.

I do know -which is why everyone targets me.

Many are being thrown out of the water.

Just watched "Shutter Island" -it was pretty sweet.

Upheaval only makes upheaval -and prevents great change. Great changes make great changes.
Hitler upheaved -and got the smackdown -and God will not deal kindly with him (though perhaps he will eventually change -at which time God would deal kindly with him). MLK made great changes -also got the smackdown -but made great changes -and God will deal kindly with him.

The day is here.

Keep your dime.

 

[Etritonakin]

Psa 18:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said, I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.
Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Psa 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
Psa 18:18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
Psa 18:19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
Psa 18:20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
Psa 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Psa 18:22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
Psa 18:23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
Psa 18:24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
Psa 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
Psa 18:27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
Psa 18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.
Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psa 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
Psa 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psa 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
Psa 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
Psa 18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Psa 18:36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.
Psa 18:37 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
Psa 18:38 I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.
Psa 18:39 For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.
Psa 18:40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Psa 18:41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
Psa 18:42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
Psa 18:43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.
Psa 18:44 As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.
Psa 18:45 The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.
Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
Psa 18:47 It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.
Psa 18:48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.
Psa 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
Psa 18:50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

 

[Danny Heim]

Your reluctance to actually make a point is intriguing -as is your general evasiveness.

It's not a mystery at all -that seems to intrigue you.

I do know -which is why everyone targets me.

Many are being thrown out of the water.

Just watched "Shutter Island" -it was pretty sweet.

Upheaval only makes upheaval -and prevents great change. Great changes make great changes.
Hitler upheaved -and got the smackdown -and God will not deal kindly with him (though perhaps he will eventually change -at which time God would deal kindly with him). MLK made great changes -also got the smackdown -but made great changes -and God will deal kindly with him.

The day is here.

Keep your dime.

Like I asked Jollybear, what's the delay? Let's get going. Why don't we just go ahead and have a better world? It's a choice. When we look in the mirror long enough, we finally see we need a shave and a hair cut.

 

[Etritonakin]

one trick pony!

 

[Danny Heim]

Psa 18:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said, I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.
Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Psa 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
Psa 18:18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
Psa 18:19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
Psa 18:20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
Psa 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Psa 18:22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
Psa 18:23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
Psa 18:24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
Psa 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
Psa 18:27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
Psa 18:29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.
Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psa 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
Psa 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psa 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
Psa 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
Psa 18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Psa 18:36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.
Psa 18:37 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
Psa 18:38 I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.
Psa 18:39 For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.
Psa 18:40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
Psa 18:41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
Psa 18:42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
Psa 18:43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.
Psa 18:44 As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.
Psa 18:45 The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.
Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
Psa 18:47 It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.
Psa 18:48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.
Psa 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
Psa 18:50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

very powerful

 

[Etritonakin]

Why do you choose to do this?
It harms you.

 

[Etritonakin]

All this and you still are blind.
I don't even want to know -but I see.

If you want this to stop -you know what to do.

 

[Etritonakin]

Perhaps it would expedite matters if you gave me the words to say?

 

[Danny Heim]

Perhaps it would expedite matters if you gave me the words to say?

What? It was very powerful, what can I say? Sorry or something?

 

[Etritonakin]

Just do the right thing -and everything will work out fine -but you'll have to re-define what is right in your mind. It's what you think you must do which is the hook.
You think you're fishing, but you're being reeled in by doing this -no matter who you are. Returning -rest -quietness -confidence -strength -that's all you need -no matter who you are -who you represent -or where you are. I know it is against everything "natural" -but it is not natural to do the right thing. Stop struggling against your maker. It is possible to learn a lesson before the end of the matter.

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Job 41:2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
Job 41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
Job 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
Job 41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
Job 41:10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
Job 41:11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Job 41:12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
Job 41:13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
Job 41:14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
Job 41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
Job 41:17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
Job 41:18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Job 41:22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
Job 41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
Job 41:24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
Job 41:25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
Job 41:26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
Job 41:27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
Job 41:28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
Job 41:29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
Job 41:32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

....only God. ....only if you do the right thing. ....then the monster from your id -no matter who you are -may be turned back.