Let's talk about Hell

[mickiel]

That's probably true. but the way it's turned out, doesn't make any difference now, the mold has been set.

Oh I like that, " The Mold has been set", the mold has been set. Excuse me for commenting, but that is a great insight, it caught my attention.

Theres a lot in that expression.

A whole lot.

Peace.

 

[Etritonakin]

I did not forget that kind -and there are more -many shades of gray.

The kind of which you speak die because they DO change -and compromise -and give the enemy power over themselves. I go along for a time, to check things out -but I do not change for them.
My own countrymen threaten me and withhold what is right because I refuse to do that which is giving the enemy power over them. There will be chaos -but there will be little change -they will tear each other apart.

 

[Danny Heim]

I did not forget that kind -and there are more -many shades of gray.

The kind of which you speak die because they DO change -and compromise -and give the enemy power over themselves. I go along for a time, to check things out -but I do not change for them.
My own countrymen threaten me and withhold what is right because I refuse to do that which is giving the enemy power over them. There will be chaos -but there will be little change -they will tear each other apart.

When the train is coming down the track, everybody jumps, in that moment, there are no enemies.

 

[Danny Heim]

I did not forget that kind -and there are more -many shades of gray.

The kind of which you speak die because they DO change -and compromise -and give the enemy power over themselves. I go along for a time, to check things out -but I do not change for them.
My own countrymen threaten me and withhold what is right because I refuse to do that which is giving the enemy power over them. There will be chaos -but there will be little change -they will tear each other apart.

Let me back up a minute. I realize that my last statement is very simplistic. And I also realize the realties you have presented regarding my call for change are also very valid. You have presented well the challenges. That being said, I certainly do not think that all of the sudden "pop" we've changed and everything is happy. In fact, I imagine that a dreadful fight will ensue as we are "forced" into change. Yet, that is exactly the deal, we will be forced into change. Not by any regime, not by human desire, but by Mother Nature herself. Mother Nature is the train here, and she's coming down the track pretty freaking fast.

You believe God is going to bail us out, after sorting the wheat from the chaff that is. And you also believe we were created in such a way as to not be able to bail ourselves out even if we wanted to, that's where God comes in. I hope I have not misinterpreted you, but I believe that's what I have been hearing you say.

Well, I can dig that. In a sense, I may be saying a very similar thing. God in my case, will also be bailing us out. Because, God (the Universe) has created us in such a way that we have abilities beyond our comprehension. Those abilities can be called upon when needed to save our butts. You might say I would call that the rapture. That is, when we suddenly (in geologic time) get brains beyond our comprehension, we rapture. I believe that.

 

[Jollybear]

No_body

Well there is a distinction because I said unicorns I know nothing of these pink ones. Some books they are mentioned in: pliny the elder in natural history, aristotle in on the parts of an animal and strabos in geography. Supposedly there is fossil evidence for them at "unicorn cave"

1: if you don’t know anything about the “pink” unicorns, why did you mention the word “pink”? where did the “pink” come from in your mind?

2: Also if these books mention unicorns, why would they lie about it?

3: you said “supposedly” there is evidence for them at unicorn cave. Well, IS there evidence for them or is it only a “supposedly” situation? Which is it, there is evidence or not?

I already explained to you what scientist theorize is happening when near death experiences happen and you ignored it.

What? No you didn’t. I certainly don’t remember it. And if you did, you certainly did not make it clear and detailed. Explain it again to me? I did not ignore anything, I responded and do respond to everything you say. It’s you ignoring some of my questions. So quit that. Explain it.

So you are telling me you trust the memories of someone who has gone through a traumatic experience rather than an objective scientist that measure the chemicals in the brain and compares the psychology of people going through these experiences?

Yea, absolutely. There are two many of these experiences to be BAD memories. I don’t believe it’s bad memories at all. You can have a traumatic experience while IN YOUR BODY and still remember a lot of stuff. Your point is nonsense. And what does chemicals in the brain have to do with the experience? And comparing that with the psychology? Explain

We have fossil evidence for evolution and there is evidence for it encoded in our genes to complete the gaps.

How is their evidence in the genes for macro evolution?

Anything we haven't found yet is just that. But again these our logical leaps,

No assumption leaps.

if scientist found an alternate explanation tomorrow it would have to accept it.

I doubt it because the design theory is not accepted and it is just as strong as evolution.

The scientific method, here is a definition: "refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses."

Sounds good

DNA and fossil records.

This is evidence against intelligent design huh? How?

Of course but they must be taught what is scientific fact and law, what has the most evidence. It would be a waste of time to teach psuedosciences like astrology, flat earth and creationism unless it is to show how they are wrong. If the kids want to use the scientific method to look at these methods and find something new that proves them right on their own, well good for them.

Yea, but they probably won’t use the scientific method on there own to try to prove one of the other views right since they are being indoctrinated with ONE view, namely evolution. So teach all sides to them, then let them exercise their critical thinking. Don’t think critical FOR THEM, let THEM do it themselves. If you teach them critical thinking skills, you then cannot think critical for them, that does not teach them. It’s like saying to someone exercising, here let me lift the weight for you and that will build your muscles. Give me a break.

It's called deductive reasoning. No wonder logical leaps frighten you, your entire logic is based on magical thinking.

I made an argument showing your thinking was based on magical thinking, and you did not answer to that. My thinking is not based on magic. How do you figure?

Of course you can't actually observe what happened millions of years ago but you can't do that with creationism either.

Right, so they are both assumed.

At least with science you can do an experiment with short living creatures like fruit flies or bacteria on a smaller scale then make a decision on logic.

A decision based on logic? No, it’s a decision based on a assumption about what they observe in the bacteria and fruit flies.

 

[Jollybear]

Are you saying it's more logical that God sent rain to the earth for 40 days and nights and all animals are descended from the animals on an ark? What's the creationist proof for that?

Yea, what’s wrong with believing all the animals today descended from the animals on Noah’s ark?

No it doesn't at least not when you use common sense, how about you show me what kind of evidence creationist have? Scientist recreating nature through an experiment doesn't constitute intelligent design, it's called (I believe, again I'm no scientist) a controlled experiment but this goes back to your former statement of not being able to "see" evolution which is exactly what they just did.

That is NOT what they did, they did NOT produce evolution when they designed “synthia” they got a team of scientists together and they all INTILLIGENTLY DESIGNED this life form. And actually to my knowledge they did not even design the cell, but just the DNA and then put it in the cell.

Really it's all just a thinly veiled attempt to indoctrinate religion into schools anyways.

This is a bad argument on your part because it judges and assumes to know the motives behind intelligent design proponents, that don’t work and so you should stay away from it.

Not to mention, your wrong, intelligent design IS a good scientific theory. It’s not religion.

What do you mean why do I think that way? Because that's what I think after looking at all the data of God and the bible. I've already gone over why in my other posts I don't see how I haven't answered the question.

Your kidding me right? Don’t tell me you explained and answered the question already, you clearly did not. Don’t’ bull crap me man. Scroll back and look for yourself, you clearly did not answer my question. Don’t tick me off and say you did. Here is what you said in the previous post

“I don't try to refute it because I have a problem with the entire premise. I've already stated multiple times that I see this as selfish, evil, and tyrannically not befitting a so called "just perfect God" my point of view differs from yours, there is nothing else to debate.”

Right there you admit you did not refute it and you clearly just told me your view, but did not tell me WHY you said what you said in this sentence. So, don’t tell me you answered it. That is completely FALSE and it angers me, so don’t do it. Either tell me why you say this, or just say you don’t know why you say it, but don’t tell me you told me why, I’m not dum man.

You have not answered my further argument and question.

I've already gone over all of this before and why, you have a different point of view from me and can't seem to understand that. There is no debating such logic because it's not based on reasoning or deductions it's all about faith and belief. I have my own mystical religious views the only difference is I would never wish to foist them on the entirety of society or even claim that they are logical, I freely admit they are probably only a psychological tool when viewed through science.

Dude! You did not tell me WHY! Are you blind! I understand you have a different point of view! I know that already, I get that, I heard that, I heard you REPEAT it as well! Goodness gracious man. Get on with the WHY behind your view now. WHY do you hold to this view! Answer that question, NO you did not answer it.

And it’s not all based on faith, it’s based on argument, reasons and logic. I gave you logical arguments and reasons for why I believe what I do, now give me reasons and logical argument for why you say the statements you do. Don’t just say “well I believe God is unjust” tell me WHY he is and then tell me why you think it is UNJUST for him to allow us to die because of Adams sin? Counter my arguments.

If you think it’s based on faith alone, then your admitting you have no reasons for why you believe what you do. That’s crazy.

Not because I personally say it's important, because we as a species get together and say it is. Evolution has no mind of it's own, the purpose of creatures are to breed and propagate. We have evolved our minds and can take it to the next level, the best society instead of the best individual.

You’re not answering my question! Your beating around the bush. You say its important only because society says it is? Do you not realize that sounds crazy? Why do you base your foundation on what society says as a whole? Also why does society say that it is important? Why is it important? Because society SAYS so? Why IS it important, do not tell me because society says so, WHY is it important. Give me a explanation for WHY its important. Just because society or someone says something is true, that does not make it true or important. Tell me why its important? Answer the question or admit you don’t know and that you have faith without a reason for it.

Also if evolution has no mind of its own, why did you say we are “meant” to evolve into what we are?

Also if evolution has no mind of its own, why do we have a PURPOSE at all?

 

[Jollybear]

Not lies per say but just our understanding of the world at the time. It was needed because people where gullible and needed a way to be taught. If you're looking for the "why" that is a different discussion, I am trying to separate here my own personal beliefs based on eastern spirituality and secular society. These posts are long enough.

In other words your saying believing in LIES at that time was NEEDED to be taught? Ok, why were lies at that time needed to be taught?

So you can't see how your truth is subjective and in no way testable and applicable to every single person?

I was only defining what I meant by TRUTH, I was not at that moment saying my view was truth, but just simply defining truth. Although yes I do believe my views to be truth and I gave you reasons and arguments for why I believe it. Also my views are testable. Also if you can find a way through argument to refute by reason my views, then GO AHEAD and do it, for you have not yet done it and I keep asking you for it and oddly you keep saying you have already, but as a fact, no you have not.

Speaking broadly changes are neither bad nor good and are just something inevitable. There is a cycle to all things. The truth will be the truth no matter what happens and if it really the truth will be able to withstand any sort of change.

I agree that truth will be the truth no matter WHO changes, and the truth will withstand any change. I agree to that. But that is not what I am talking about. I disagree with you that changes are neither bad nor good. Yes, changes are bad if a person changes from believing something true to something false. Changes are good if a person changes from believing something false to believing something true. Assuming for the moment that my view is true, hell is real and you have to accept Christ and follow him in order to not go there. Well, if you don’t do that, then that is bad FOR YOUR soul. So, yes, that is a serious thing. It’s not a thing where it’s neither bad nor good, like eating a banana or an apple, whatever one you choose is neither bad nor good. This is not a thing of preferences; it’s a more serious issue.

The same forever in an unconscious sense, beliefs are part of this. But again if it's really the truth it will stand on it's own.

Your not understanding me here. Yes I agree truth will stand on it’s own whether we believe it or not. Yes, absolutely. But people will NOT stand if they don’t believe in the truth. You get it?

I've already explained near death experience and subjective experiences aren't actual evidence. Seems like you honestly believe it because you fear death like everyone else, whether you are conscious of it intellectually or not. It might not be the motivation of everyone but it is one of the primal ones for religion. I'm not excluding myself from this.

1: no you have not explained near death experiences as not being evidence. No you have not, that is either a downright lie on your part, or it’s a absolute brain freeze where you forgot what you actually said, I hope it’s the later. Go back and read your stuff, you did not explain it. Why not explain it now?
2: I am sick of your judgment in saying I believe in hell because I fear death. Not to mention it’s a false judgment at that. Get off my motives man and address the MERIT of my arguments and what I am saying. Otherwise your case is weak. I told you why I believe in a hell and a afterlife, it’s because of the evidence and good reason for it. I gave you that evidence and reasons, you won’t and have not addressed them yet. Also if you were right in your judgment (which your not) if I believed in a afterlife because I feared death, if that really was my motive for believing an afterlife, then that would be a dishonest way of believing in a afterlife. Also it would not be logical because if I believed in a afterlife out of FEAR, then why would I go ahead and believe in a FEARFULL HELL afterlife? That would not make sense believing in that if I was believing in a afterlife out of the motive of fear now would it genius? Grow up man and learn how to debate! Where’s your common sense at? If anyone is showing fear here it’s YOU and what I am showing toward it right now is ANGER. So get off it and address the merit of what I am saying.

I agree with this.

Oh, ok, so you do agree that true religion is not motivated by power, alright then. Remember you said that now, because I am going to hold you to every statement you say.

On a personal level you can believe whatever you like but science must always be agnostic because that is just it's nature.

Ok, so science is agnostic when it comes to evolution huh? You got to be consistent here. Also you can’t stay agnostic because if one of the religions out there is true and you don’t follow it, then you’re in trouble. That’s why being agnostic is not good.

When you ask everyone to believe the same "truth" that stagnates us,

If everyone really did believe in the TRUTH it would not stagnate us. How do you figure it would? I don’t understand?

 

[Jollybear]

because there is no proof that you are the one true religion no matter how much you personally believe you have the perfect truth.

There is no 100% proof, but on a historical, archeological and philosophical level, my position is the most plausible one out of all of them (that is Christianity).

What nonsense cults can be very many different things. I cherry pick the bible because I don't believe the bible is inspired by God

Do you hear yourself and how stupid you sound? Probably not, so I will spell it out for you. How can you disbelieve something you don’t understand correctly? What your disbelieving is not the actual bible, but your FALSE understanding of it. That’s not very smart is it now? Let me spell it out further. Here is what you’re doing: first you start off not believing in the bible, then you cherry pick what you think is foolish in it without taking into account other parts that explain the part you cherry picked and did not understand. So you make an interpretation of a particular passage without taking into account all of the context and everything else, then you say “hey, that’s wrong, it’s false, I don’t believe it” BEFORE you take into account understanding it first. But it’s interesting that you ADMIT cherry picking from it. But what is sickening is that you pride it.

nor is their any historical proof that it is wholly true so taking into account the whole doesn't really matter to me, I'd rather separate the wheat from the chaff.

That’s completely false, there is historical corroboration evidence that it is true. Also archeology is more confirmation. So if you’re not going to make a correct interpretation of the bible through taking into account the context of it, then you have to take into account the corroborating evidence that backs up the bible as being true. Either way, you’re not getting out of it, unless you just deny it and run like a little coward.

There is as much evidence for it being the word of God as is the book of mormon, the koran, the vedas, etc.

False, completely false. The book of mormon has no archeology backing it up, it was written if I remember correctly in the 17 or 1800s which means it is certainly not a witness of Christ at all. Also the Koran has no authority in RE INTERPRETING the events in the bible since it was not around in the time of Christ, it was written about 6 to 700 hundred or so years after Christ. The bible, particularly the new testament was written in the same generation as Christ and has witnesses. So don’t tell me the evidence for them all is equal. Do your homework or we can go through it all right here on this board if you’re not intellectually afraid.

If you want to talk about cult behavior how about putting your hands into a bunch of elders who are free to make all sorts of judgments on your behavior with impunity but can apparently be mistaken about huge things, like the end of the world.

Your missing the point, I don’t want to talk about cults, I was simply saying you were doing something that a cult would do, and all cults are bad. So that can shorten the conversation on that quickly enough.

Which is all ultimately based on a feeling of belief you have.

Wrong, there is more than just a belief and a fuzzy feeling. There are spiritual experiences.

The archeology and history you have might match up to some of the things in the bible but it doesn't prove miracles and the supernatural aspects.

Right it don’t prove them, but it certainly gives evidence that the miracles mentioned happened by a strong probability. Plus if all or most of the natural aspects can be proven with archeology, then one needs to take it serious.

If you have real objective 100% proof of the bible based on the scientific model then I'm all ears, it would be a historic day on earth. Or you could just say something about Satan and how the unbelievers will look at the truth and ignore it instead I guess.

No it would not be a historical day, there would still be unbelievers and they would explain it away and think it’s just a illusion. So yes they would ignore it. Some people don’t even think WE exist, they think our existence don’t have much evidence for it. So if you got people like that in the world, then your surely going to get people who will downright refuse to believe in the obvious, even if it was proven and knocked them over the head.

Also you don’t have 100% proof for cosmic and biological evolution so why do you believe it?

Also spell out for me exactly what kind of PROOF that you’re looking for, don’t just tell me the “scientific method” explain to me what you’re actually looking for here.

 

[Danny Heim]

Oh I like that, " The Mold has been set", the mold has been set. Excuse me for commenting, but that is a great insight, it caught my attention.

Theres a lot in that expression.

A whole lot.

Peace.

I believe you. But I'm curious mickiel. What are you seeing in that expression?

 

[Etritonakin]

When the train is coming down the track, everybody jumps, in that moment, there are no enemies.

You don't know people very well. Some can't move due to fear-and get run over. Some say "nothing to live for, anyway" and get run over. Some think "it is my destiny to be run over" -and get run over. Some trample others to the ground to get off the tracks -and they get run over. Some push people onto the tracks for fun.
Things just aren't that simple.

In the movies 2001/2010... the appearance of monoliths, a new star, and the knowledge that "something wonderful" was out there eventually led the people of the earth to seek peace. This is nice to think about, but, in reality, we would war with each other over whatever could be gained by these things -and would most likely seek to war with whatever intelligence was behind the monoliths -BECAUSE THEY TOLD US WHAT TO DO AND WHAT NOT TO DO -just as some view God's instructions as tyranny! In the absence of monoliths or the belief in God -we war with each other for telling each other what to do. We see that as tyranny, also -rather than peacefully exchanging ideas -because everyone thinks they are right -even when they're not -and expect the others to accept their view -or force them to do so!

We'd be like.. "We're sooooooo landing on Europa!!!!!!!!!"

 

[Etritonakin]

Let me back up a minute. I realize that my last statement is very simplistic. And I also realize the realties you have presented regarding my call for change are also very valid. You have presented well the challenges. That being said, I certainly do not think that all of the sudden "pop" we've changed and everything is happy. In fact, I imagine that a dreadful fight will ensue as we are "forced" into change. Yet, that is exactly the deal, we will be forced into change. Not by any regime, not by human desire, but by Mother Nature herself. Mother Nature is the train here, and she's coming down the track pretty freaking fast.

You believe God is going to bail us out, after sorting the wheat from the chaff that is. And you also believe we were created in such a way as to not be able to bail ourselves out even if we wanted to, that's where God comes in. I hope I have not misinterpreted you, but I believe that's what I have been hearing you say.

Well, I can dig that. In a sense, I may be saying a very similar thing. God in my case, will also be bailing us out. Because, God (the Universe) has created us in such a way that we have abilities beyond our comprehension. Those abilities can be called upon when needed to save our butts. You might say I would call that the rapture. That is, when we suddenly (in geologic time) get brains beyond our comprehension, we rapture. I believe that.

Ignorance is bliss -but only for a while.

Pro 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

............and that is the end of spin.

You will eventually realize that ******** (bovine excrement) is not a good building material.

We want to bail ourselves out -OF THE MESS WE CREATED. The problem is not that we can not. The problem is that we WILL not. That which would enable us to do so we view as detestable. WE ARE THE TRAIN.

 

[Evandr]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

Good question but unfortunately most people cannot reconcile the perfect love of God with such a scenario. It would be immensely cruel and unjust to make someone suffer physical pain for eternity because they did not measure up to some commandment in mortality.

If one alters the concept of pain from the physical to the emotional then things start to fall into place. You can put a person in the lap of luxury and they can still be unhappy to the point of severe depression.

The most exquisite pain that a person can have is mental because physical pain can come to a point where it is tolerated. Time will do that but time cannot heal regret for opportunities permanently lost to foolishness and/or belligerence.

God loves us far too much not to have a place for even the most degenerated sinner to dwell that is physically glorious (save for those who deny the Holy Ghost and are cast into outer darkness as was Lucifer and his followers but even then that is not a place of physical torment).

The pain spoken of comes from the mental torment suffered when one realizes what they lost, by their own fault and how they used their free agency, when they came so close to gaining it; the greater the loss the greater the regret.

Because we cannot even begin to imagine the greatness and glory to be had living in the presence of God we therefore cannot even begin to imagine the pain of regret that will come if we are denied such a privilege. Anguish so great that it has been equated to the initial pain of being tossed into a lake of fire and brimstone and called eternal because God is eternal and once our forward progression is halted (damned) then so will out regret be eternal because after that point there is no more progression, worlds without end, and therefore the regret is eternal even though our physical state may be a level of glory. Our lack of understand of the possible heights and depths of emotional joy and pain preclude us from truly comprehending how great the joy or how terrible the pain.

 

[Danny Heim]

Ignorance is bliss -but only for a while.

Pro 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

............and that is the end of spin.

You will eventually realize that ******** (bovine excrement) is not a good building material.

We want to bail ourselves out -OF THE MESS WE CREATED. The problem is not that we can not. The problem is that we WILL not. That which would enable us to do so we view as detestable. WE ARE THE TRAIN.

Well, there you have it. If we were to rely on solid building material, we would surely come around and have a chance. The only thing close to solid material we have now comes from science, not religion. We are confused and think it's the other way around. When the bovine excrement hits the fan, we may see it differently, we can hope for that anyway.

 

[Danny Heim]

Good question but unfortunately most people cannot reconcile the perfect love of God with such a scenario. It would be immensely cruel and unjust to make someone suffer physical pain for eternity because they did not measure up to some commandment in mortality.

If one alters the concept of pain from the physical to the emotional then things start to fall into place. You can put a person in the lap of luxury and they can still be unhappy to the point of severe depression.

The most exquisite pain that a person can have is mental because physical pain can come to a point where it is tolerated. Time will do that but time cannot heal regret for opportunities permanently lost to foolishness and/or belligerence.

God loves us far too much not to have a place for even the most degenerated sinner to dwell that is physically glorious (save for those who deny the Holy Ghost and are cast into outer darkness as was Lucifer and his followers but even then that is not a place of physical torment).

The pain spoken of comes from the mental torment suffered when one realizes what they lost, by their own fault and how they used their free agency, when they came so close to gaining it; the greater the loss the greater the regret.

Because we cannot even begin to imagine the greatness and glory to be had living in the presence of God we therefore cannot even begin to imagine the pain of regret that will come if we are denied such a privilege. Anguish so great that it has been equated to the initial pain of being tossed into a lake of fire and brimstone and called eternal because God is eternal and once our forward progression is halted (damned) then so will out regret be eternal because after that point there is no more progression, worlds without end, and therefore the regret is eternal even though our physical state may be a level of glory. Our lack of understand of the possible heights and depths of emotional joy and pain preclude us from truly comprehending how great the joy or how terrible the pain.

What a tight circle that is. So tight, so narrow, you are just lucky to make the bend. Not a good idea of the universe. I think more that it is a massive circle, massive to the point of endless possibilities, and not just pain or joy. That is where the wonder of God exists, in the endless possibilities. Discovery does not end with heaven or hell, discovery never ends.

 

[Danny Heim]

You don't know people very well. Some can't move due to fear-and get run over. Some say "nothing to live for, anyway" and get run over. Some think "it is my destiny to be run over" -and get run over. Some trample others to the ground to get off the tracks -and they get run over. Some push people onto the tracks for fun.
Things just aren't that simple.

Exactly. Things are not that simple. I wasn't saying it was that simple. Remember, this is what I said. " I certainly do not think that all of the sudden "pop" we've changed and everything is happy. In fact, I imagine that a dreadful fight will ensue as we are "forced" into change." So, what the heck are you talking about??

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Exactly. Things are not that simple. I wasn't saying it was that simple. Remember, this is what I said. " I certainly do not think that all of the sudden "pop" we've changed and everything is happy. In fact, I imagine that a dreadful fight will ensue as we are "forced" into change." So, what the heck are you talking about??

Aren't the 'sheep' [humble, mild, meek] already declared as righteous [Matt 25v37] when Jesus comes in judgment?

That means they have already put on the Christian personality [though imperfect] producing the fruit of God's spirit as mentioned at Galatians 5 vs 22,23. Advice on how to prepare now is found at 2nd Peter 3 v14;
James 1v27 B.

Now is the time to repent, turn around, and stop willfully doing wrong so as not to perish at the time of Jesus 'glory'. 2nd Peter 3v9; Psalm 92v7.

 

[Danny Heim]

Aren't the 'sheep' [humble, mild, meek] already declared as righteous [Matt 25v37] when Jesus comes in judgment?

That means they have already put on the Christian personality [though imperfect] producing the fruit of God's spirit as mentioned at Galatians 5 vs 22,23. Advice on how to prepare now is found at 2nd Peter 3 v14;
James 1v27 B.

Now is the time to repent, turn around, and stop willfully doing wrong so as not to perish at the time of Jesus 'glory'. 2nd Peter 3v9; Psalm 92v7.

You know I really finding this interesting. How with just a few different references I could same back at you. The humble shall surely be the ones to lead us through. Those that can admit we have failed. And that our present systems are not sustainable. A new mind must come into to being.

And of course that new mind would be Jesus for you. Hey, believe it or not, I'm cool with that. Just hadn’t been brought to attention for me to say anything about it yet, until now. Jesus can definitely come back. I’m sure Buddha and Krishna can also. Heck, we might even see Satan about, who knows? We humans have great powers of manifestation. Anything can happen. But it’s what you believe. I find it easy to believe what I believe. Because it does not give me just two choices, instead, just once choice at a time; ongoing.

 

[Hawkins]

To start with the pagan word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible. It is a mistranlation.

In Hebrew it is sheol which is a darkness for souls to wait for the coming of the judgment. In Greek, the word is Hades. Sheol is not totally equivalent to grave, or else grave will be used instead of the strange term sheol. The Jews minority who didn't follow the Oral Torah might not believe in the torturing sheol, but the Jews in majority including the Pharisee circle in Jesus' time believe in sheol as a place for humans souls.

Hell fire is also believed by the Jews. That's why hell is in Jesus Christ's parable. Parable usually use terms extremely familiar to people in order to illustrate a point. That is, to use simple things to describe a less obvious point.

 

[Hawkins]

And of course that new mind would be Jesus for you. Hey, believe it or not, I'm cool with that. Just hadn’t been brought to attention for me to say anything about it yet, until now. Jesus can definitely come back. I’m sure Buddha and Krishna can also. Heck, we might even see Satan about, who knows? We humans have great powers of manifestation. Anything can happen. But it’s what you believe. I find it easy to believe what I believe. Because it does not give me just two choices, instead, just once choice at a time ongoing.

That's just you, people can identify the difference between Jesus Christ and other figures, abit sub-consciously though. To say that other religions can't be distinguished from Christianity is quite moot.

 

[jamesdominic]

Cheers so all agree God is same to all religion
at least now i can go to sleep