Let's talk about Hell

[Hawkins]

There is a pattern in scripture; when ever some one goes east he is aways going away from the presence of God; this is true scripturally as well as in the natural world. East of Eden, Adam when eastward,

Hmm..perhaps.

 

[Hawkins]

Ah go ahead Hawk, I'd like to hear what yuou have to say. I won't be offended I assure you. I can't speak for anyone else though. You haven't offended me as yet, I hope I've not offened you either.

Ok, here you go...

1. Religion is about faith. Yet not all religions have the self-awareness to realise that they themselves are of faith. From my speculation, only Abrahamic religions have such a self-awareness. The main theme is "you are saved by faith" or "you need faith to be saved".

2. Ultimately, a 'true' religion is about how one's after life is, which is the only part where 'FAITH' is demanded the most. Because we don't know what life will be after death, we need faith either to believe life continues, or we need the same amount of faith to believe that life ceases to continue after death.

As a result, religion can hardly be eradicated from humanity as long as humans cannot deliever a satisfactory answer about "will life continue after death, does soul exist?" Religons will continue to exist because you need faith to answer this question. And to a certain extent, you have to answer this question within your life time, subconscously if not conscously. It is thus a faith question demanding a faith answer for everyone to go through.

3. Now how practical religion is to address the question like "will life continue, or does soul exist?". To put it another way, how practical religions are in offering the saving of souls, that is, how practical the salvation theology is.

Amongst all religions, only Christianity offers the solution of Sin Atonement. All others are almost exclusively about the supressing of sin using strict rules which at least humans today can hardly abide by. They can't be practical enough to save human souls.

It seems that one sin atonement is practical enough to save a certain portion of human souls. As an illustration, how many humans before 30s of last century can get their hands on nudity? Very few. How about today? With the widespreading of the Internet, few can get away from nudity and exotics. Abrahamic God hates adultery so much that women in the middle east will have to wrap them up like mummies to avoid sin. So in today's world, how many can survive God's judgment if few of us can be fully away from nudity and exotics.

It only says that the only practical religion which fits the past and fits today and fits the future is Christianity.

4. Everyone can claim that he's inspired from God. What is needed at least theologically to distinguish the truth from the fake? It is witnessing! By the religion of the Jews, and it is emphasized in both OT and NT that false witnessing is a dead sin. Chritianity is developed by witnessing, at least so theologically speaking. Jesus Christ's deed is declared to be witnessed. Christianity spreaded so quickly because it is said that (theologicall at least) Jesus Christ's disciples are willing to die as a witnessing for His death, resurrection and ascension.

5. If it is said that the prophets can deliver messages from God, how will they know that those messages are truly from God the high power, instead of delusion and such? Again, theologically at least, prophecies and miracles are brain independent. And God may use them to confirm that the messages are from a higher power.

Acts 14:3
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.

So God inspires men by putting messages into their brains, then performing message-related miracles of allowing prophecies to come true to confirm that the messages are from HIm.

To put it another way, God uses miracles and prophecies as testimony/witness for His own messages. Christianity is thus theologically sound, as it seems that the Bible contains tons of prophecies from the prophets and tons of miracles from those Jews who abide by the dogma that false witness is not allowed.

Proverbs 19:9 (OT)
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will perish.

Revelation 21:8 (NT)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

6. Humans are imperfect. Jesus makes a difference because His deity is known to His followers. God will choose a group of imperfect minds to craft the Bible such that His will will be done through the Holy Bible, by the hands of the imperfect humans. This is also a factor of witnessing. A group of prophets acting consistently saying the same thing as part of the witnessing of His truth is theologically sound instead of through a single person.

7. God knows the past and He knows the future. Has any God presented his case about a prophecy for his own religion and the book his inspired? Other than Christian God, it seems none. And God sent out His challenge for the false gods long time ago through His prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:21-24
"Present your case," says the LORD. "Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King.
"Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come,
tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.
But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; he who chooses you is detestable.


Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

So now the Holy Bible is the all time best selling book.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."

So now Christianity is the most widespreaded religion of the world with 1/3 humans as its followers.

No another book nor another religion can ever foresaw its own future like this.

 

[Hawkins]

Ah go ahead Hawk, I'd like to hear what yuou have to say. I won't be offended I assure you. I can't speak for anyone else though. You haven't offended me as yet, I hope I've not offened you either.

More...

Christianity is more about the modern concept of law.

It goes somehow like this, if you break the laws, you'll be sent to jail, whether you knew the laws or not, read the laws or not, studied in the faculty of law or not. You will be judged and sent to jail anyway.

Similarly, God's Law is embedded to your heart and soul. If you break it, you'll be driven out of His kingdom and put to jail. Adam broke the Law and was driven out of Eden. Next time we'll be in a permanent separation from God.

In a permanent separation from God, God will remove whatever belong to Him from you, including light. You won't have much left except for the darkness where you stay. It is thus a place called hell. From that onward you spend your time as a prisoner. It is prophecied that some (if not all) of you will continue to sin against God, finally the hell fire will appear.

Jews are under Mosaic Law, and Moses will be their accuser on the judgment day.

John 5:45
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

As for the Gentiles, perhaps Satan will accuss them of sinning. It is said that he's an ex-archangel and with some capability, and accussing seems to be his specialty.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Find yourself a good lawyer.

Alternatively, you may choose to believe in Jesus Christ such that the judgment by law can be avoided.

Christianity as an approach to reach truth,

Now assuming that you've met with God personally and are 100% sure about His existence, and how will you be able to show others that it is true that God exists?!?!?! You will find that there's not any efficient way for such a kind of truth to be conveyed among humans. Even when you are 100% sure about it, others will have to need faith either to accept or to reject what you said. To simply put, witnessing and testimony are already of the most efficient way for your truth to be conveyed. And coincidently this is what Christianity is, witnessing and testimonies.

 

[Promulgatious]

Has anybody commented on guilt ?

 

[Etritonakin]

Whatever material is available would suit me fine, as long as it gets us on the road. From my reading here I am less adamant about religion not being of help. It can help, and yes, it will take the people using religion in a much more refined way to make it useful. There has to be some sort of unity along with respect. But in order to accomplish what we need to adapt and evolve into our new world to come, it better have some binding power, that's all I can say. I still have a big reserve that it can happen within religion while within an evolving world, but maybe it can make it turn out even for the better. Truth is, I don’t know?? But I do know this; we need to hear a lot more “We don’t know.”

Religion "opening up" to the needs of 9 billion or trillion! -is summed up in the statement that God created the universe to be inhabited -which is in the bible.

What we need is not "I don't know."

...but... "I know."


If we do not know, we can not.
If we know, we can.
What is left is: what to know.

 

[Etritonakin]

Has anybody commented on guilt ?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Promulgatious]

It is obvious that the discussion on this thread is the usaual Biblical thingy which is really intriguing intellutally and has nothing to those who desperately are seeking the truth in order to love God with all their hearts.

 

[Evandr]

What a tight circle that is. So tight, so narrow, you are just lucky to make the bend. Not a good idea of the universe. I think more that it is a massive circle, massive to the point of endless possibilities, and not just pain or joy. That is where the wonder of God exists, in the endless possibilities. Discovery does not end with heaven or hell, discovery never ends.

There comes a point where knowledge is complete, God is at that point and, because of the nature of omnipotence (as far as we can understand its definition) God can pass that knowledge and prestige on to others but it is not something you want to give to someone who will abuse it in any degree. The only truly endless purpose for existence is to create joy in others, the family unit and the structure thereof is the vehicle. You can love and care for all your children but you only give to them individually that which they are capable of using properly without hurting themselves or others. In the case of the family of God, the right to inherit omnipotence and carry on the work of God in the same way He does is a privilege and power one must earn and is the only true way to the eternal progression and endless possibilities you speak of; If that is your goal than you are going to have to demonstrate your worthiness to wield such power. Fail to do so and your journey toward that ultimate and most lofty of goals will be halted, the door will be forever closed to you and your regret will be as fire and brimstone as you end up in a good place prepared for you by a loving Heavenly Father who is also wise enough to deny you the ability to destroy yourself as well as all creation.

You seem to decry the reality depicted as "straight is the way and narrow the gate" as being unwise for the universe when in practice it is the only way to ensure that the organization of the universe will not be dismantled by those who would seek to upset the delicate balance of law and order and the associated growth that comes from such a balance. This they would do through ignorance, belligerence, foolishness, and sheer stupidity. Lucifer is one who sought to buck the system and, to preserve all creation, it became necessary for him to be cast out and denied any power at all save to tempt and try mankind. Keeping the way straight and the gate narrow is quintessentially important to maintaining all creation, even your own. You shouldn’t knock it because it is the reason you are here and allowed to think anything you want about it. Weather or nor you are ever given power to command as God commands is up to you so I’d choose my path carefully if I were you.

One more thing, I believe that we all spent many millennia preparing to be tested here and that after all is said and done the potential for further growth of the individual to become something that they are not is gone, each of us will have reached the pinnacle of our individual capabilities. Where we end up is where we will belong and further training or trial would be futile and a grand waste of time.

 

[Benoni]

Who are you talking to there Benoni? I have read your posts, they are interesting. Actually, I'd like to see you explain the following a little further:

"when ever some one goes east he is aways going away from the presence of God"

Go to a search engine like Bible Gateway and type in the word "east" and notice had happens when a man of God goes east.

 

[Benoni]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

No one cannot not have faith until God calls them. Man does not choose until God called and then he has no freewill or choice.

 

[Danny Heim]

Religion "opening up" to the needs of 9 billion or trillion! -is summed up in the statement that God created the universe to be inhabited -which is in the bible.

What we need is not "I don't know."


...but... "I know."


If we do not know, we can not.
If we know, we can.
What is left is: what to know.

When we have completed "We don't know" then we may get a chance at "knowing" but we will never know everything because knowledge never ceases. God is an ever growing hard drive of knowledge.

 

[Danny Heim]

There comes a point where knowledge is complete, God is at that point and, because of the nature of omnipotence (as far as we can understand its definition) God can pass that knowledge and prestige on to others but it is not something you want to give to someone who will abuse it in any degree. The only truly endless purpose for existence is to create joy in others, the family unit and the structure thereof is the vehicle. You can love and care for all your children but you only give to them individually that which they are capable of using properly without hurting themselves or others. In the case of the family of God, the right to inherit omnipotence and carry on the work of God in the same way He does is a privilege and power one must earn and is the only true way to the eternal progression and endless possibilities you speak of; If that is your goal than you are going to have to demonstrate your worthiness to wield such power. Fail to do so and your journey toward that ultimate and most lofty of goals will be halted, the door will be forever closed to you and your regret will be as fire and brimstone as you end up in a good place prepared for you by a loving Heavenly Father who is also wise enough to deny you the ability to destroy yourself as well as all creation.

You seem to decry the reality depicted as "straight is the way and narrow the gate" as being unwise for the universe when in practice it is the only way to ensure that the organization of the universe will not be dismantled by those who would seek to upset the delicate balance of law and order and the associated growth that comes from such a balance. This they would do through ignorance, belligerence, foolishness, and sheer stupidity. Lucifer is one who sought to buck the system and, to preserve all creation, it became necessary for him to be cast out and denied any power at all save to tempt and try mankind. Keeping the way straight and the gate narrow is quintessentially important to maintaining all creation, even your own. You shouldn’t knock it because it is the reason you are here and allowed to think anything you want about it. Weather or nor you are ever given power to command as God commands is up to you so I’d choose my path carefully if I were you.

One more thing, I believe that we all spent many millennia preparing to be tested here and that after all is said and done the potential for further growth of the individual to become something that they are not is gone, each of us will have reached the pinnacle of our individual capabilities. Where we end up is where we will belong and further training or trial would be futile and a grand waste of time.

Limits. I am in no hurry to reach my limits. I am in no hurry get omnipotence either. If I had my druthers, I'd always live right her on earth, as a human, I'd require no more. It is a very beautiful place. But who knows what I'll become in the future, or after the death of this body. Right now my concern is the ability to live as a human on earth. And right now, that ability is threatened by climate change. If we ever needed mercy from God, now is the time.

This may not be much of a response to what you have written Evandr. But it is how it struck me.

 

[Evandr]

Limits. I am in no hurry to reach my limits. I am in no hurry get omnipotence either. If I had my druthers, I'd always live right her on earth, as a human, I'd require no more. It is a very beautiful place. But who knows what I'll become in the future, or after the death of this body. Right now my concern is the ability to live as a human on earth. And right now, that ability is threatened by climate change. If we ever needed mercy from God, now is the time.

This may not be much of a response to what you have written Evandr. But it is how it struck me.

I can respect that but remember this, eternal increase for an omnipotent being is not in power or domain because that point is already reached, it is in the increase of family. Knowledge and contentment is also based on what we know do don't be so sure of whast you want in the future, life after death may bring regrets.

 

[Danny Heim]

More...

Christianity is more about the modern concept of law.




Christianity as an approach to reach truth,

That sort of knowing is pretty large thing to claim Hawk. I know how you feel the right to claim it. I respect that. I will also tell you I wish you had other ideas, but you would say the same to me. I've learned on this site that an effort to have people put aside their religions enough so we can unify and solve our immediate threats, can't happen in time. So, we'll have to work with it as it is I'm afraid. It's been quite the eye opener, and it scares me. But hey, one has what they have. I would ask you to find that in your knowing, and in your faith, I am sure there is law for the preservation of life, let's agree on that, and DO that.

 

[Etritonakin]

No one cannot not have faith until God calls them. Man does not choose until God called and then he has no freewill or choice.

I'm not sure how that relates to my direct quote from the bible, but...

It is true that none can truly come to God unless God first calls them -and that many who "believe" have still not truly been called to understand the truth.

It is not true that we then have no free will or choice. Concerning accepting or rejecting God's call.... It is more than likely that God understands us and the creation so well that he knows what we will choose under which circumstances -and therefore calls us at the appropriate time. God gave us a choice. He set before us life and death -blessing and cursing. We always have the ability to choose death and cursing, but the will to do so can be completely removed -which obviously requires that one choose for it to be completely removed.

Mankind as a whole does not have much free will to choose the "end of the matter". God's ability to declare the end from the beginning... to have written long ago what has been thus far -and will be in the future -is due to a combination of his understanding of us -our thought processes, etc..(after all, he created us), and his ability to direct our paths. It is true that he will deny us our "free will" when it conflicts with his plan. His will supercedes ours.

While God is the first and last word in knowledge -the point where knowledge is complete -this applies to spiritual knowledge. The creativity he gave us makes us capable of creating new things to know.
This ability is now often used to create new ways to do stupid things -and new devices with which to do them. Or -as the bible puts it...

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When we obey God's law, which IS the completeness of spiritual knowledge -our creativity may be infinite without the possibility of unhappiness, evil and destruction. Still -he will always know all of what is being created -as it is created.
When we create new things, it makes God happy. He tells us to sing to him, and play with skill on musical instruments -because he enjoys it -just as we wonder at his creation. We do have the ability to create something which God has never seen or known -and this can be a good thing.
As far as evil is concerned, he knows the end of the matter, but would not have wasted his time attempting to know every possible way we might do something stupid -as the possibilities are almost infinite (except that evil destroys itself -and everything else -so the evil would eventually destroy even their ability to do evil [some other points could be added here, but I'll save it for another post]).

He simply made it so that our stupidity could never get out of control -which is also a good thing!

 

[Etritonakin]

When we have completed "We don't know" then we may get a chance at "knowing" but we will never know everything because knowledge never ceases. God is an ever growing hard drive of knowledge.

SEE POST ABOVE

"We THINK we can handle the situation by coordinating both crime and investigation" -nice. I like that line.

 

[Danny Heim]

I can respect that but remember this, eternal increase for an omnipotent being is not in power or domain because that point is already reached, it is in the increase of family. Knowledge and contentment is also based on what we know do don't be so sure of whast you want in the future, life after death may bring regrets.

I m not afraid of my afterlife. I am not afraid of my life as it is now. It's our life that concerns me. I love this life. I love being a human. It affords me appreciation for the beauty of this earth. I'm sure all life forms here have some relation to that. We are very lucky to have such a planet. Of course, I am sure all lifeforms on all planets that have them, feel much the same.

 

[Danny Heim]

I'm not sure how that relates to my direct quote from the bible, but...

It is true that none can truly come to God unless God first calls them -and that many who "believe" have still not truly been called to understand the truth.

It is not true that we then have no free will or choice. Concerning accepting or rejecting God's call.... It is more than likely that God understands us and the creation so well that he knows what we will choose under which circumstances -and therefore calls us at the appropriate time. God gave us a choice. He set before us life and death -blessing and cursing. We always have the ability to choose death and cursing, but the will to do so can be completely removed -which obviously requires that one choose for it to be completely removed.

Mankind as a whole does not have much free will to choose the "end of the matter". God's ability to declare the end from the beginning... to have written long ago what has been thus far -and will be in the future -is due to a combination of his understanding of us -our thought processes, etc..(after all, he created us), and his ability to direct our paths. It is true that he will deny us our "free will" when it conflicts with his plan. His will supercedes ours.

While God is the first and last word in knowledge -the point where knowledge is complete -this applies to spiritual knowledge. The creativity he gave us makes us capable of creating new things to know.
This ability is now often used to create new ways to do stupid things -and new devices with which to do them. Or -as the bible puts it...

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When we obey God's law, which IS the completeness of spiritual knowledge -our creativity may be infinite without the possibility of unhappiness, evil and destruction. Still -he will always know all of what is being created -as it is created.
When we create new things, it makes God happy. He tells us to sing to him, and play with skill on musical instruments -because he enjoys it -just as we wonder at his creation. We do have the ability to create something which God has never seen or known -and this can be a good thing.
As far as evil is concerned, he knows the end of the matter, but would not have wasted his time attempting to know every possible way we might do something stupid -as the possibilities are almost infinite (except that evil destroys itself -and everything else -so the evil would eventually destroy even their ability to do evil [some other points could be added here, but I'll save it for another post]).

He simply made it so that our stupidity could never get out of control -which is also a good thing!

I can relate to this quite a bit. Of course it is from the perspective of my belief. But isn't interesting how we actually tell each other very similar things. Our talking heads just speak from various reference points, but say much the same to each other. I think that is very important because it is what will save our butts in the end. We must find ways to share what we believe and still have it benefit all. That means letting go of great prejudices of belief. It is very hard to do, and the deeper one’s belief, the harder it is. But we gotta do it.

 

[no-body]

No_body

1: if you don’t know anything about the “pink” unicorns, why did you mention the word “pink”? where did the “pink” come from in your mind?

2: Also if these books mention unicorns, why would they lie about it?

3: you said “supposedly” there is evidence for them at unicorn cave. Well, IS there evidence for them or is it only a “supposedly” situation? Which is it, there is evidence or not?

I told you in my last post I didn't say "pink" and even if I did somewhere say that in one of my posts to make that distinction is ridiculous. I can only conclude that you are trying to bait me into saying that it should be self evident that there are no unicorns. That might indeed be why people keep mentioning pink unicorns but these are appeals to be rational, it is not a representative of science or the scientific method.

The fossils at unicorn cave by the way where found to be woolly mammoth bones pieced incorrectly

Article on it: The Unicorn, the Mermaid, and the Centaur - National Zoo| FONZ

"...And, people had accepted unicorns as real creatures for more than 2,000 years. The Greeks included unicorns in their natural histories as early as the fifth century B.C.E"

What? No you didn’t. I certainly don’t remember it. And if you did, you certainly did not make it clear and detailed. Explain it again to me? I did not ignore anything, I responded and do respond to everything you say. It’s you ignoring some of my questions. So quit that. Explain it.

Yea, absolutely. There are two many of these experiences to be BAD memories. I don’t believe it’s bad memories at all. You can have a traumatic experience while IN YOUR BODY and still remember a lot of stuff. Your point is nonsense. And what does chemicals in the brain have to do with the experience? And comparing that with the psychology? Explain

Near death experiences are hypothesized to be release of chemicals in the brain, psychological factors, and possibly a form REM sleep stage. Remember science doesn't pretend to have all the answers like religion does, they make hypothesis and do experiments and go with what is most logical. It still needs more research but this sounds more logical than saying that near death experiences are proof that there is a soul or an afterlife. By your logic we would be stuck believing that thunder and lighting is God bowling and that rain is his tears.

How is their evidence in the genes for macro evolution?

We are 99.9% related to chimpanzees. Deductive reasoning. Yes a lot of science is logical deductions but you seriously telling me it is more logical to think we where made from dust?

No assumption leaps.

I doubt it because the design theory is not accepted and it is just as strong as evolution.

Depends on your point of view, to you they are assumptions because you are doing exactly what you accuse science of doing.

Sounds good

This is evidence against intelligent design huh? How?

It isn't but it is proof of evolution. Intelligent design is just a hypothesis that has no strong credible evidence and shouldn't be taught in school. If you have evidence otherwise post some sources.

If you teach them critical thinking skills, you then cannot think critical for them, that does not teach them. It’s like saying to someone exercising, here let me lift the weight for you and that will build your muscles. Give me a break.

No it would be like teaching the basics of exercise and letting them go out and find what exercise is best for them.

I made an argument showing your thinking was based on magical thinking, and you did not answer to that. My thinking is not based on magic. How do you figure?

Right, so they are both assumed.

One has a lot more evidence going for it than the other.

A decision based on logic? No, it’s a decision based on a assumption about what they observe in the bacteria and fruit flies.

That's the way science works. It builds on itself. If they find evidence later on that discredits their assumptions then they accept it and move on with it. Science doesn't pretend to be perfect or have all the answers, in fact it is the opposite.

Yea, what’s wrong with believing all the animals today descended from the animals on Noah’s ark?

...

 

[no-body]

That is NOT what they did, they did NOT produce evolution when they designed “synthia” they got a team of scientists together and they all INTILLIGENTLY DESIGNED this life form. And actually to my knowledge they did not even design the cell, but just the DNA and then put it in the cell.

Maybe, maybe not I know little of this synthia thing but there is ample evidence of proof for evolution out there.

This is a bad argument on your part because it judges and assumes to know the motives behind intelligent design proponents, that don’t work and so you should stay away from it.

Not to mention, your wrong, intelligent design IS a good scientific theory. It’s not religion.

Yeah right, you obviously don't want to go into it because it's true. Let me ask you a question would you be satisfied if at no time during the "intelligent design" portion of class no mention of deities where made and the teacher used the example of aliens instead? (if you say "who made the aliens" then why not who made god?)

Right there you admit you did not refute it and you clearly just told me your view, but did not tell me WHY you said what you said in this sentence. So, don’t tell me you answered it. That is completely FALSE and it angers me, so don’t do it. Either tell me why you say this, or just say you don’t know why you say it, but don’t tell me you told me why, I’m not dum man.

You have not answered my further argument and question.

One more time I guess: A God who would punish humanity because one woman got a man to eat an apple is not justice. If he was truly just he would have absolved Adam and Eve of his crime, why? Because God is supposed to be all powerful, knowing and perfect. The punishment needs a crime sure.. in the human world but God is not a human being he is supposed to be above such pettiness and if he isn't then he is not perfect as is claimed.

You say its important only because society says it is? Do you not realize that sounds crazy? Why do you base your foundation on what society says as a whole? Also why does society say that it is important? Why is it important? Because society SAYS so? Why IS it important, do not tell me because society says so, WHY is it important. Give me a explanation for WHY its important. Just because society or someone says something is true, that does not make it true or important. Tell me why its important? Answer the question or admit you don

’t know and that you have faith without a reason for it.

Because that's just the way the universe is designed. There is no real "why" and if there is we haven't found it yet. God is just an attempt to answer that question. But we have gotten enough out of the concept and it is time to move on, the time for imaginary friends to validate our existence is past.

In other words your saying believing in LIES at that time was NEEDED to be taught? Ok, why were lies at that time needed to be taught?

Because people where ignorant, using mythology was a good way to teach them how to be civilized.

Ok, so science is agnostic when it comes to evolution huh? You got to be consistent here. Also you can’t stay agnostic because if one of the religions out there is true and you don’t follow it, then you’re in trouble. That’s why being agnostic is not good.

Agnostic in the sense that it needs to keep an open mind on everything. Today facts might be disproved by tomorrows research. But you still need evidence.

If everyone really did believe in the TRUTH it would not stagnate us. How do you figure it would? I don’t understand?

Because what you believe is objective truth is not. No matter how hard you want to believe it is.

There is no 100% proof, but on a historical, archeological and philosophical level, my position is the most plausible one out of all of them (that is Christianity).

Well to you it is. To myself I find Buddhism to be the most plausible religion but I'm willing to admit that I'm biased.

That’s completely false, there is historical corroboration evidence that it is true. Also archeology is more confirmation. So if you’re not going to make a correct interpretation of the bible through taking into account the context of it, then you have to take into account the corroborating evidence that backs up the bible as being true. Either way, you’re not getting out of it, unless you just deny it and run like a little coward.

There is historical evidence that some of the things in the bible happened sure but there is no evidence of any of the supernatural aspects or that it is all true. As for cherry picking the bible, I don't believe there is anything to be understood by studying the whole and I see it as you putting meaning to things that aren't there. That way you can say "you just don't understand the complexity of it, keep reading" when someone poses a question that you can't answer.

The bible, particularly the new testament was written in the same generation as Christ and has witnesses. So don’t tell me the evidence for them all is equal. Do your homework or we can go through it all right here on this board if you’re not intellectually afraid.

Are any of these witnessed accounts not from the bible? Any other sources that saw Jesus die and resurrect? You'd think such a big thing would get written down by the common populace.

No it would not be a historical day, there would still be unbelievers and they would explain it away and think it’s just a illusion. So yes they would ignore it. Some people don’t even think WE exist, they think our existence don’t have much evidence for it. So if you got people like that in the world, then your surely going to get people who will downright refuse to believe in the obvious, even if it was proven and knocked them over the head.

The problem is to you fact is synonymous with faith. You are so sure that your "facts" prove the truth but they don't. You can't see how you are biased so there is no point in discussing this further.

Also you don’t have 100% proof for cosmic and biological evolution so why do you believe it?

Because it has a lot of objective evidence for it.

Also spell out for me exactly what kind of PROOF that you’re looking for, don’t just tell me the “scientific method” explain to me what you’re actually looking for here.

Real evidence that the supernatural happened from a source that isn't the bible or Christianity. I would absolutely believe it if it where presented, I still wouldn't become a Christian thought I would join Lucifer and rebel.