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Let's talk about Hell

Benoni

Well-Known Member
Etritonakin;2048901]I'm not sure how that relates to my direct quote from the bible, but...

It is true that none can truly come to God unless God first calls them -and that many who "believe" have still not truly been called to understand the truth.

I agree with this.

It is not true that we then have no free will or choice. Concerning accepting or rejecting God's call.... It is more than likely that God understands us and the creation so well that he knows what we will choose under which circumstances -and therefore calls us at the appropriate time. .

This I do not agree with; show me where man has a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation? Yes God calls at a appropriate time; but at the same time God is not calling everyone now.

God gave us a choice. He set before us life and death -blessing and cursing. We always have the ability to choose death and cursing, but the will to do so can be completely removed -which obviously requires that one choose for it to be completely removed

We are all uder the curse of death; we all died in Adam; yes we will all be made alive in Christ; but earch in their own order.



Mankind as a whole does not have much free will to choose the "end of the matter". God's ability to declare the end from the beginning... to have written long ago what has been thus far -and will be in the future -is due to a combination of his understanding of us -our thought processes, etc..(after all, he created us), and his ability to direct our paths. It is true that he will deny us our "free will" when it conflicts with his plan. His will supercedes ours.

I am not sure where you are going?

While God is the first and last word in knowledge -the point where knowledge is complete -this applies to spiritual knowledge. The creativity he gave us makes us capable of creating new things to know.
This ability is now often used to create new ways to do stupid things -and new devices with which to do them. Or -as the bible puts it...

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When we obey God's law, which IS the completeness of spiritual knowledge -our creativity may be infinite without the possibility of unhappiness, evil and destruction. Still -he will always know all of what is being created -as it is created.
When we create new things, it makes God happy. He tells us to sing to him, and play with skill on musical instruments -because he enjoys it -just as we wonder at his creation. We do have the ability to create something which God has never seen or known -and this can be a good thing.

I thought we were talking about freewill towards salvation; sound like your last paragrpah is speaking about someone who knows God.


As far as evil is concerned, he knows the end of the matter, but would not have wasted his time attempting to know every possible way we might do something stupid -as the possibilities are almost infinite (except that evil destroys itself -and everything else -so the evil would eventually destroy even their ability to do evil [some other points could be added here, but I'll save it for another post]).

He simply made it so that our stupidity could never get out of control -which is also a good thing!

If God is God not a god He controls all evil so what is your point again?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with knowing God. If we don't truly know him, we can't make an informed decision about whether or not to obey him -which is pretty much the whole point of our present situation.

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He does not control all evil,as such. You do not understand God correctly -certainly not the God of the bible -if you believe this. He controls what evil -and those who do it -are allowed to affect.
He allows those who will to do evil to do so -sometimes. Sometimes he restrains them. It is even recorded that an evil spirit suggested he would be a lying spirit in the mouth of one -and God allowed him to go do it. (2 Chron. 18 -but even here, he asked how a thing might be done -and the spirit chose -decided -suggested doing a certain thing.)

In the bible, God is quoted as saying "I create evil (calamity)" -but this is not the same as saying he
makes us do evil -if that's what you're saying. He did not create any to be evil -but gave them creativity -which can be misused as the "free will" to disobey him.
When he calls one, they can refuse. He gave instructions to Jonah -and Jonah refused -but he did not reject God entirely -yet it is possible to do so. He did not create us to be robots. If he removes our will, we cannot be truly creative.
God could make rocks obey him, but he wants us to choose to do so. He tells us to bring forth fruits meet with repentance. This can begin while the spirit is only with one -and God's spirit in one enables them to do so to a greater extent, but we must choose -motivate ourselves -stir up that gift -this requires choice.

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I can relate to this quite a bit. Of course it is from the perspective of my belief. But isn't interesting how we actually tell each other very similar things. Our talking heads just speak from various reference points, but say much the same to each other. I think that is very important because it is what will save our butts in the end. We must find ways to share what we believe and still have it benefit all. That means letting go of great prejudices of belief. It is very hard to do, and the deeper one’s belief, the harder it is. But we gotta do it.
Yet you are unwilling to let go of your prejudices against what you see as my beliefs -whereas I am simply not willing to agree with the parts of what you say which are actually, obviously, in error. Everyone should be able to view things somewhat similarly -as we all inhabit the same world -but few are willing to examine their own beliefs -or to prove them. Everyone should be able to agree that something needs to be done -but we all think a different thing should be done -and most are wrong -hence the saying "good intentions pave the road to hell".
 
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Benoni

Well-Known Member
He does not control all evil. You do not understand God correctly -certainly not the God of the bible. He controls what evil -and those who do it -are allowed to affect.
He allows those who will to do evil to do so -sometimes. Sometimes he restrains them. It is even recorded that an evil spirit suggested he would be a lying spirit in the mouth of one -and God allowed him to go do it. (2 Chron. 18 -but even here, he asked how a thing might be done -and the spirit chose -decided -suggested doing a certain thing.)

In the bible, God is quoted as saying "I create evil (calamity)" -but this is not the same as saying he
makes us do evil -if that's what you're saying. He did not create any to be evil -but gave them creativity -which can be misused as the "free will" to disobey him.
When he calls one, they can refuse. He gave instructions to Jonah -and Jonah refused -but he did not reject God entirely -yet it is possible to do so. He did not create us to be robots. If he removes our will, we cannot be truly creative.
God could make rocks obey him, but he wants us to choose to do so. He tells us to bring forth fruits meet with repentance. This can begin while the spirit is only with one -and God's spirit in one enables them to do so to a greater extent, but we must choose -motivate ourselves -stir up that gift -this requires choice.

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Your God is surely not God, more like a god.

Then who made us do it Adam? The devil? God caused the fall and we/Adam had no freewill or choice to stop it.

God fire is spiritual in nature, not physical or literal; is not God a spirit; what use would God have with literal fire except to show us what His spiritual fire is all about. There is no difference between the “fire” in reference to the cloven tongues of fire when the day of Pentecost had come, then the “fire” in the Lake of “Fire”; they are both spiritual fire. He fire on the day of Pentecost was given because we as Christians needs God’s fire to purge us of our flesh; same with the Lake of fire.

Nice opinion about how you feel about God's fire; but I rather use His Word.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Here is some further detail as to how He makes use of the "evil factor":

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.


1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.


1Sa
16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa

18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


2Ch

18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
This is not to "blame" God for evil, but to simply clarify that evil is also a tool He uses in the grand scheme of thing

 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Yet you do blame God for evil. God is RESPONSIBLE for allowing evil to exist by giving us choice/creativity, but WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for CHOOSING TO DO IT.


"Then who made us do it Adam? The devil? God caused the fall and we/Adam had no freewill or choice to stop it."

Adam and Eve made CHOICES. You are saying we do not have choice -but God gave them instructions -and they CHOSE to disobey. They COULD HAVE obeyed. Eve was deceived, but she still CHOSE to believe the devil rather than God. God allowed it -but ADAM AND EVE CHOSE TO FALL.

WE MADE US DO IT! -just as I can read the ten commandments -and choose to obey them or not.

God certainly uses evil AS A TOOL AGAINST ITSELF. The evil spirits he sent -works with, etc... WILL TO DO EVIL -they are those who attempted to dethrone God -and were then restrained. He now works with them for their eventual benefit!
They are restrained unto the judgment, but he still teaches them -hopefully unto repentance. This is very apparent in the book of Job. Satan was doing his thing, and God decided to draw his attention to his servant Job. He asked if Satan had considered him -how he was obedient to God. Satan said he only obeyed God because God protected him -and said if bad things befell him, he would curse God. God then allowed Satan to do whatever he willed to Job -except kill him. Job did not curse God -yet God had one thing against Job -that he was wise in his own eyes. So Job learned that lesson -and was then blessed more than before -and even those of his family Satan had killed will eventually be resurrected -AND SATAN WAS PROVEN WRONG.

God allowed evil to exist -and now uses it to teach us not to CHOOSE to do it.

Two thirds of the angels never did it -and SATAN MADE SATAN DO IT. (Below DOES refer to Satan -herein named the King of Tyrus)

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

...and

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
 
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Benoni

Well-Known Member
Yet you do blame God for evil.

"Then who made us do it Adam? The devil? God caused the fall and we/Adam had no freewill or choice to stop it."

Adam and Eve made CHOICES. You are saying we do not have choice -but God gave them instructions -and the CHOSE to disobey. They COULD HAVE obeyed. Eve was deceived, but she still CHOSE to believe the devil rather than God. God allowed it -but ADAM AND EVE CHOSE TO FALL.


No, scripture blames God for evil; I am just quoting scripture. Again please let us look at God’s Word instead of assuming everything. If God does not control evil then there is a God out there with more power then God to control something God cannot control. Is that what you believe?

BIG devil God and itti-bity helpless God when it comes to the negative? it is called the left hand of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.



 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
No, scripture blames God for evil; I am just quoting scripture. Again please let us look at God’s Word instead of assuming everything. If God does not control evil then there is a God out there with more power then God to control something God cannot control. Is that what you believe?

BIG devil God and itti-bity helpless God when it comes to the negative? it is called the left hand of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. <<<This is true -but not as you are presenting it. Yes -he did give the creation over to futility -but is not to blame for evil -WE ARE.

ITS own choice -not THEIR own choice. We certainly sin before we know what it is -but when we know it, we then CHOOSE IT -and he is still not TO BLAME. He told Adam and Eve what to do -He told the devil what to do -he told Israel what to do -he tells us to teach his ways -and we do not -and WE are still to blame -otherwise he could not lay anything to our charge. It was inevitable that SOME would sin -but he did not MAKE Adam and Eve sin -nor did he MAKE Satan sin.

No -scripture does not blame God for evil -scripture says God is blameless. God takes responsibility for the existence of evil -not blame -there is a huge difference.
To say God is to blame for evil is to say he is guilty. This is not the truth.
End of conversation. No offense, but I want nothing to do with anyone who would accuse God. It may seem like a slight technicality -but it is not slight at all. THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS GROUND.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
 
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Danny Heim

Active Member
Yet you are unwilling to let go of your prejudices against what you see as my beliefs -whereas I am simply not willing to agree with the parts of what you say which are actually, obviously, in error. Everyone should be able to view things somewhat similarly -as we all inhabit the same world -but few are willing to examine their own beliefs -or to prove them. Everyone should be able to agree that something needs to be done -but we all think a different thing should be done -and most are wrong -hence the saying "good intentions pave the road to hell".

No, I don't think so. I think I can let go of my prejudices of your belief. If it means gaining unity, for sure. We simply would have to not bring it up. Actually, in the immediate, it is not necessary to deal with this anyway, we just need to agree to solve our problems. Most of it infrastructural, things like that. I am not saying that mental, emotional and spiritual aspects are not going to play in, but I believe the immediate issues would be mostly superficial anyway. And in that regard, it could be a manageable feat. It just depends on how willing people are to survive this.


These are things I've gathered since having these discussions here. Which is why I came to this site. To explore and see where I was at. It taken what it's taken. So maybe it's confusing. In other words, I've seen something new and changed my approach. Anything wrong with that? I've mentioned it some, on the other thread of mine, and some here also, maybe you've missed them. If you have read these things, and still feel that way, then I think you are misunderstanding me somehow. And hey, good intentions may be all we have at this point, got to have something.

Here is an example I wrote to Hawkins:

That sort of knowing is pretty large thing to claim Hawk. I know how you feel the right to claim it. I respect that. I will also tell you I wish you had other ideas, but you would say the same to me. I've learned on this site that an effort to have people put aside their religions enough so we can unify and solve our immediate threats, can't happen in time. So, we'll have to work with it as it is I'm afraid. It's been quite the eye opener, and it scares me. But hey, one has what they have. I would ask you to find that in your knowing, and in your faith, I am sure there is law for the preservation of life, let's agree on that, and DO that.

That is called a concession. Not to believing what you believe, not to expecting you to believe like me. But to the fact we are going to have to work together, and do the best we can, regardless of our various beliefs. So, when it comes time to get off our butts and do something, we'll have t shut up quite a bit. Get what I'm saying?

How's this, you have your heaven and hell, and I'll have my trips through the universe? You don't need to know what I'm doing on Europa, and I don't need to know what you are doing in Heaven. But while hear on earth, maybe we can do our part to protect and make it last as long as it can. What's the matter with that?
 
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Benoni

Well-Known Member
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. <<<This is true -but not as you are presenting it. Yes -he did give the creation over to futility -but is not to blame for evil -WE ARE.

ITS own choice -not THEIR own choice. We certainly sin before we know what it is -but when we know it, we then CHOOSE IT -and he is still not TO BLAME. He told Adam and Eve what to do -He told the devil what to do -he told Israel what to do -he tells us to teach his ways -and we do not -and WE are still to blame -otherwise he could not lay anything to our charge. It was inevitable that SOME would sin -but he did not MAKE Adam and Eve sin -nor did he MAKE Satan sin.

No -scripture does not blame God for evil -scripture says God is blameless. God takes responsibility for the existence of evil -not blame -there is a huge difference.
To say God is to blame for evil is to say he is guilty. This is not the truth.
End of conversation. No offense, but I want nothing to do with anyone who would accuse God. It may seem like a slight technicality -but it is not slight at all. THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS GROUND.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Obviously the real problem is you are offended. Blame responsiblity, please explane the big difference? Guilty of what being God who controls all things, or would you rather have a god who cannot control evil? Dangerous ground? To quote God's Word? It is called truth; not opinion.

Their choice, his choice are we not all dead in Adam?

I give you scripture the same way you attack others; condemn others. But when I quote scripture that declares God took the blame you cannot fit it in your old wine skin.

If man has a choose prove it.

God created Satan as a liar and a murderer, not an angel; I will be glad to back all I say with scripture.

 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
No, I don't think so. I think I can let go of my prejudices of your belief. If it means gaining unity, for sure. We simply would have to not bring it up. Actually, in the immediate, it is not necessary to deal with this anyway, we just need to agree to solve our problems. Most of it infrastructural, things like that. I am not saying that mental, emotional and spiritual aspects are not going to play in, but I believe the immediate issues would be mostly superficial anyway. And in that regard, it could be a manageable feat. It just depends on how willing people are to survive this.


These are things I've gathered since having these discussions here. Which is why I came to this site. To explore and see where I was at. It taken what it's taken. So maybe it's confusing. In other words, I've seen something new and changed my approach. Anything wrong with that? I've mentioned it some, on the other thread of mine, and some here also, maybe you've missed them. If you have read these things, and still feel that way, then I think you are misunderstanding me somehow. And hey, good intentions may be all we have at this point, got to have something.

Here is an example I wrote to Hawkins:

That sort of knowing is pretty large thing to claim Hawk. I know how you feel the right to claim it. I respect that. I will also tell you I wish you had other ideas, but you would say the same to me. I've learned on this site that an effort to have people put aside their religions enough so we can unify and solve our immediate threats, can't happen in time. So, we'll have to work with it as it is I'm afraid. It's been quite the eye opener, and it scares me. But hey, one has what they have. I would ask you to find that in your knowing, and in your faith, I am sure there is law for the preservation of life, let's agree on that, and DO that.

That is called a concession. Not to believing what you believe, not to expecting you to believe like me. But to the fact we are going to have to work together, and do the best we can, regardless of our various beliefs. So, when it comes time to get off our butts and do something, we'll have t shut up quite a bit. Get what I'm saying?

How's this, you have your heaven and hell, and I'll have my trips through the universe, how's that? You don't need to know what I'm doing on Europa, and I don't need to know what you are doing in Heaven. But while hear on earth, maybe we can do our part to protect and make it last as long as it can. What's the matter with that?

I get what you're saying -but I disagree on the shutting up. Being slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to understand is good, but I am often told to shut up when I am saying things that would benefit everyone -by those who don't necessarily want me to shut up -but want to hear it exclusively -which will not help. So -I don't shut up -and they attempt to censor -misrepresent -spin -preempt, etc... which is their choice. I will continue to do what is necessary to build the foundation of a better world -and they can hinder me if they will -and the results will be their responsibility.

They say "loose lips sink ships" -but it depends on the situation. Allowing information to be heard by friend and foe alike may seem like a bad idea, but if the enemy has that information already, the situation can be turned to advantage.
Giving the enemy false information is an oft-used tactic, but when the enemy already knows all your information -and HE is telling one to shut up about it -even using one's own friends against him -it's time to run around like a fool shouting it at the top of your lungs in order to counter the foolish running around of- and sayind/doing of stupid things by others -which may require getting one's ignorant countrymen out of the way for a time. When the enemy sees the deceived collective mind is about to be educated -and see correctly -he focuses -more than before -on separating individual minds to make said vision worthless -and make a TRULY collective mind and cooperative group impossible. Ahem.

Only the pawns can be deceived -and even this is made less effective by the fact that the pawns don't need to think. We waste our time with lying ways and attempting to confuse the enemy. We know more now -and still do exactly the same stupid things. We know the enemy exists, but we still follow his plan!
We have not done well, we have attempted to cover our collective butt -and made the situation worse -though we make a big deal of our minimal successes and false successes to gain support for our stupidity.

Here again, spiritual advice -which certainly goes against every natural tendency or perceived wisdom -would win the day..

(Isa 30:15 NKJV) For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,
(Isa 30:16 NKJV) And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses"; Therefore you shall flee! And, "We will ride on swift horses"; Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!
(Isa 30:17 NKJV) One thousand shall flee at the threat of one, At the threat of five you shall flee, Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain And as a banner on a hill.

...but when the enemy and the homegrown spinners see that people begin to agree with this, they quickly create a counterfeit to appease the people, attack those who don't agree with their stupid plans -AND STILL DO EXACTLY THE SAME STUPID THINGS.

Being wise as the serpent, but peacful as doves, is good. Not throwing our "pearls" before swine, so to speak, is good. What surrounds us is absolute idiocy. The ways of those who surround us are their own demise -coordinated by the enemy.

No "deal" -ever -just do the right thing and things will get better. Compromise is not wise.
 
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Danny Heim

Active Member
I get what you're saying -but I disagree on the shutting up. Being slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to understand is good, but I am often told to shut up when I am saying things that would benefit everyone -by those who don't necessarily want me to shut up -but want to hear it exclusively -which will not help. So -I don't shut up -and they attempt to censor -misrepresent -spin -preempt, etc... which is their choice. I will continue to do what is necessary to build the foundation of a better world -and they can hinder me if they will -and the results will be their responsibility.

They say "loose lips sink ships" -but it depends on the situation. Allowing information to be heard by friend and foe alike may seem like a bad idea, but if the enemy has that information already, the situation can be turned to advantage.
Giving the enemy false information is an oft-used tactic, but when the enemy already knows all your information -and HE is telling one to shut up about it -even using one's own friends against him -it's time to run around like a fool shouting it at the top of your lungs in order to counter the foolish running around of- and sayind/doing of stupid things by others -which may require getting one's ignorant countrymen out of the way for a time. When the enemy sees the deceived collective mind is about to be educated -and see correctly -he focuses -more than before -on separating individual minds to make said vision worthless -and make a TRULY collective mind and cooperative group impossible. Ahem.

Only the pawns can be deceived -and even this is made less effective by the fact that the pawns don't need to think. We waste our time with lying ways and attempting to confuse the enemy. We know more now -and still do exactly the same stupid things. We know the enemy exists, but we still follow his plan!
We have not done well, we have attempted to cover our collective butt -and made the situation worse -though we make a big deal of our minimal successes and false successes to gain support for our stupidity.

Here again, spiritual advice -which certainly goes against every natural tendency or perceived wisdom -would win the day..

(Isa 30:15 NKJV) For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,
(Isa 30:16 NKJV) And you said, "No, for we will flee on horses"; Therefore you shall flee! And, "We will ride on swift horses"; Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!
(Isa 30:17 NKJV) One thousand shall flee at the threat of one, At the threat of five you shall flee, Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain And as a banner on a hill.

...but when the enemy and the homegrown spinners see that people begin to agree with this, they quickly create a counterfeit to appease the people, attack those who don't agree with their stupid plans -AND STILL DO EXACTLY THE SAME STUPID THINGS.

Being wise as the serpent, but peacful as doves, is good. Not throwing our "pearls" before swine, so to speak, is good. What surrounds us is absolute idiocy. The ways of those who surround us are their own demise -coordinated by the enemy.

No "deal" -ever -just do the right thing and things will get better. Compromise is not wise.

I think with what you are saying I can find agreement. Of course, who one defines as the enemy makes a big difference. In attempting to offer help to our world, when speaking of the enemy, for it to be constructive and something all can relate to, we need to choose our words carefully. What I mean by that, if we really want to help, we will have to muffle our specific doctrines. For instance, if I ask for people to help to save the earth, I should keep it to the science, and not say, "Please help the Earth Mother, she is sick and dieing, and her spirit is weak." Right off, I'm going to turn a lot of people off. I am slinging on to them my belief, which they could care less about. But they may care about the earth as a place to live and so do I. So by sacrificing my desire to convert, I might get the help I&#8217;m looking for.

So yes, you are right that to say &#8220;shut up&#8221; is extreme. But if I can&#8217;t stop my preaching, and my preaching becomes a block, then I best shut up. I liked your way of saying it, &#8220;Being slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to understand is good&#8221;. That is very important. We need a ton of that.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
God created Satan as a liar and a murderer, not an angel; I will be glad to back all I say with scripture.
Ezek.28v15 most certainly contradicts your opinion friend.
Are you saying God created a perfect liar and murderer ???
v14 says Lucifer was an anointed cherub (angel) and God set him so.
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
Ezek.28v15 most certainly contradicts your opinion friend.
Are you saying God created a perfect liar and murderer ???
v14 says Lucifer was an anointed cherub (angel) and God set him so.


Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.

Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..


It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.


 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.
Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.

Satan is not Satan's personal name at his heavenly creation.
Satan the Devil made himself a Satan [resister] and Devil [slanderer]

From the start or beginning of his going bad, going wrong, the one now called Satan the Devil was created by God but Not created as a Satan or Devil.
Satan chose to make himself Satan the Devil.
A person can choose to be a doctor or lawyer but they are not made as that at the beginning, but they can be a doctor or lawyer from the beginning of their choosing to be so.

So before the one now called Satan told the first lie or first sin of Genesis 3v4 he was not a Satan or a Devil.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Satan cannot be Lucifer because no where does it say Satan is Lucifer and besides God created Satan.

Religion claims Satan is Lucifer, God created Satan as a liar and a murderer from his beginning. If Satan was an angel as the myth of religion proclaims then how can he have two beginnings? IMPOSIBLE!

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

It is impossible, Satan cannot have two beginnings that is if you believe God’s Word and not Rome.
friend , Angels as well as man are allowed free-will to change from what they are - IF THEY SO WISH.
Lucifer (an angel of light) BECAME an angel of darkness when he willed himself to be ABOVE God Isah.14v12-19. Ezek.28v13-18. Also some of the angels followed him but not all. This certainly shows they were exercising their free will to become what THEY wanted to be. Obviously Lucifer did not want to remain a servant of God since his heart was lifted up and he wanted to take God's place.
Change is also available to man. At present we are sinfull creatures but of our own free will we can (with God's help) BECOME children of God and enter the Kgd of God.
Neither the angels nor man are set in stone to begin with because that would deny us free will to change. All of us get ONE CHANCE to either remain as we are or to become a different Being .:)
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
friend , Angels as well as man are allowed free-will to change from what they are - IF THEY SO WISH.
Lucifer (an angel of light) BECAME an angel of darkness when he willed himself to be ABOVE God Isah.14v12-19. Ezek.28v13-18. Also some of the angels followed him but not all. This certainly shows they were exercising their free will to become what THEY wanted to be. Obviously Lucifer did not want to remain a servant of God since his heart was lifted up and he wanted to take God's place.
Change is also available to man. At present we are sinfull creatures but of our own free will we can (with God's help) BECOME children of God and enter the Kgd of God.
Neither the angels nor man are set in stone to begin with because that would deny us free will to change. All of us get ONE CHANCE to either remain as we are or to become a different Being .:)

Show me your freewill in scripture when it comes to salvation. Lucifer is not Satan.

No where in Isah.14v12-19. Ezek.28v13-18 is the word Satan mentioned, this is all religious tradition and assumption.

The word angel simply means messenger; many time there are heavenly messengers as well as in some cases earthy messenger, you must weigh each verse closely.

NT:32

aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggello [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:

This was not a translation from the Greek, but instead the transliteration took the Greek word &#8220;aggelos&#8221; and concocted the word angel which simply means messenger.

Lucifer is a word not even found in the Hebrew and is only used in the KJV of the Bible and is a man, Satan is a spirit.

Yes Satan fought the Arch Angel Michael; but if you notice Satan was referred to as Satan, the devil or the dragon never and arch angel or Lucifer.

There is no such word in the Bible when it comes to salvation as the religious word&#8217;s &#8220;freewill&#8221; or choice. In fact man does not have a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation. Man does not have the ability or will to choose salvation or any thing spiritual for he is dead in trespasses and sin. Have you ever seen a dead man choose? This is supernaturally true when it comes to a soulish man choosing spirituall matters.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version) 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International) 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE) 14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV) 14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
Satan is not Satan's personal name at his heavenly creation.
Satan the Devil made himself a Satan [resister] and Devil [slanderer]

From the start or beginning of his going bad, going wrong, the one now called Satan the Devil was created by God but Not created as a Satan or Devil.
Satan chose to make himself Satan the Devil.
A person can choose to be a doctor or lawyer but they are not made as that at the beginning, but they can be a doctor or lawyer from the beginning of their choosing to be so.

So before the one now called Satan told the first lie or first sin of Genesis 3v4 he was not a Satan or a Devil.

Nice opinion now back it with God's Word?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I think with what you are saying I can find agreement. Of course, who one defines as the enemy makes a big difference. In attempting to offer help to our world, when speaking of the enemy, for it to be constructive and something all can relate to, we need to choose our words carefully. What I mean by that, if we really want to help, we will have to muffle our specific doctrines. For instance, if I ask for people to help to save the earth, I should keep it to the science, and not say, "Please help the Earth Mother, she is sick and dieing, and her spirit is weak." Right off, I'm going to turn a lot of people off. I am slinging on to them my belief, which they could care less about. But they may care about the earth as a place to live and so do I. So by sacrificing my desire to convert, I might get the help I&#8217;m looking for.

So yes, you are right that to say &#8220;shut up&#8221; is extreme. But if I can&#8217;t stop my preaching, and my preaching becomes a block, then I best shut up. I liked your way of saying it, &#8220;Being slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to understand is good&#8221;. That is very important. We need a ton of that.

Being quick to understand requires that understanding not be blocked -or manipulated. Also -once we understand we must act. When people act truth rather then false or manipulated facts, we might have a chance -but the powers-that-be are not promoters of understanding -but promoters of themselves -and are quite willing to destroy the people to save themselves, their image, assets... no matter whether they are right or wrong. Most of what is happening now is purposed confusion to thwart those who understand -and hide the evil of evil men -at the cost of everything. They are corrupt -that means the enemy has dirt on them -and they are not the type to sacrifice their butts for the people -which makes them the enemy -as they are willing to act against their own people to save their own butts -and waste the time and resources of countless agencies to do so -placing certain people in certain situations hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone. David we ain't. 1 ton, indeed!
Enough said about hell. We've sown the wind -now we will reap the whirlwind -it'll be hell enough.

Good luck in your endeavors, then -time will tell.

Who's gonna have to move? Who's whose enemy? Who are we fighting?

Mic 2:8 Even of late my people is risen up as an enemy: ye pull off the robe with the garment from them that pass by securely as men averse from war.
Mic 2:9 The women of my people have ye cast out from their pleasant houses; from their children have ye taken away my glory for ever.
Mic 2:10 Arise ye, and depart; for this is not your rest: because it is polluted, it shall destroy you, even with a sore destruction.

Jer 10:17 Gather up thy wares out of the land, O inhabitant of the fortress.
Jer 10:18 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.


Not-so-subtle stupidity and references to pickup trucks will not stop him.

I am the best friend you ever knifed in the back -and you have made God almighty your enemy.
When you finally take me out of the way -you will understand what a friend I've been. When you get what you want -and regret it -you will understand.
 
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Danny Heim

Active Member
Being quick to understand requires that understanding not be blocked -or manipulated. Also -once we understand we must act. When people act truth rather then false or manipulated facts, we might have a chance -but the powers-that-be are not promoters of understanding -but promoters of themselves -and are quite willing to destroy the people to save themselves, their image, assets... no matter whether they are right or wrong. Most of what is happening now is purposed confusion to thwart those who understand -and hide the evil of evil men -at the cost of everything. They are corrupt -that means the enemy has dirt on them -and they are not the type to sacrifice their butts for the people -which makes them the enemy -as they are willing to act against their own people to save their own butts -and waste the time and resources of countless agencies to do so -placing certain people in certain situations hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone. David we ain't. 1 ton, indeed!
Enough said about hell. We've sown the wind -now we will reap the whirlwind -it'll be hell enough.

Good luck in your endeavors, then -time will tell.

Who's gonna have to move? Who's whose enemy? Who are we fighting?

Mic 2:8 Even of late my people is risen up as an enemy: ye pull off the robe with the garment from them that pass by securely as men averse from war.
Mic 2:9 The women of my people have ye cast out from their pleasant houses; from their children have ye taken away my glory for ever.
Mic 2:10 Arise ye, and depart; for this is not your rest: because it is polluted, it shall destroy you, even with a sore destruction.

Jer 10:17 Gather up thy wares out of the land, O inhabitant of the fortress.
Jer 10:18 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.


Not-so-subtle stupidity and references to pickup trucks will not stop him.

I am the best friend you ever knifed in the back -and you have made God almighty your enemy.
When you finally take me out of the way -you will understand what a friend I've been. When you get what you want -and regret it -you will understand.

Nicely stated, like your writing style. You a poet?

There is definitely evil in this old world. I can only hope I myself do not contribute to it. I'll take your God over evil any day. Just to take a break from lies if nothing else. I am speaking of lies that give gain to those lying, it's a bad thing. We who have beliefs, may lie to ourselves (that’s not a hint to Christians, but to all), we suffer our own demise. But those who lie to all of us…will have a hell of some kind to deal with.
 
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