Let's talk about Hell

[Beta]

When it comes to eternity and life after death, it is all opinion. Mine, yours, everyone that has anything to say about, it is all opinion. After opinion, all one has is belief. One book from another does not prove anything. I wrote my spiritual belief a few pages back, is that proof? Absolutely not. Are the Vedas proof, the Koran? What proof in the entire world exists anywhere about this subject. It is all belief. Believe what you believe, but do not covet it (and that, is just another opinion).

YOUR belief may be YOUR opinion my friend but that is not the way I see my belief.
Would you say that Jesus only had an OPINION for which he was willing to die and did die ?
There is quite a difference between opinion and certainty which a carnal man can not grasp.
I don't mind what you believe my friend we are all free agents, but please don't presume to tell me mine.

 

[Danny Heim]

YOUR belief may be YOUR opinion my friend but that is not the way I see my belief.
Would you say that Jesus only had an OPINION for which he was willing to die and did die ?
There is quite a difference between opinion and certainty which a carnal man can not grasp.
I don't mind what you believe my friend we are all free agents, but please don't presume to tell me mine.

But that's my opinion, that your opinion, is an opinion...
Actually, what else can belief be but an opinion, if there is no proof for the belief. Because you believe it to be so, is not proof. But by all means my dear, have your belief, and most of all, enjoy it, that's what it's there for isn't it?

 

[logician]

Have you any valid references to support your belief - apart from human opinions ?

Certainly more than you, I can see matter and energy, please show me your god.:sleep:

 

[Benoni]

Certainly more than you, I can see matter and energy, please show me your god.:sleep:

Sorry that cannot happen no matter how hard someone trys.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

 

[Luminous]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.

It's Ed's time and God does not see Ed in his book, so Peter throws him into the lake of fire, something like that. I think that is actually pretty much it. Oh except one thing, Ed's there for eternity.

Sot it's hot, actually, Ed is on fire. He has landed on hot rocks and they are scraping his knees and his palms and burning at the same time. In fact his is totally on fire. He is in Hell for sure and he is on literal fire. And it hurts; it is searing pain of boils and burned skin. But he sees that he is not dieing. He is as alive as he was when he was thrown in 40 minutes ago. And he wonders when they will get him, but knows they are never going to come, but he can’t believe it and screams for help.

It's been 124 years. Ed still burns, his pain has never let up for 124 years. His pleas for help still fill the hot flames and brush the flames back into his eyes that burn constantly. He is engulfed in fire. It has now been 84,213 years. Ed screams have grown weird and finally at 700 million years to the day Ed stops screaming for one split second and realizes he is just beginning.

It has now been 41 zillion years times a 1000 zillion years that Ed has burned in Hell. He has another moment and he realizes he may as well have been there for 10 minutes, because this time will repeat again at another 41 zillion times a 1000 zillion years and that will still be just the beginning. And then the beginning starts again....

Get it?
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

outta sight outta mind? who cares anyway, they deserve to die in hell, otherwise i wouldn't be saved...right? :sarcastic

 

[Luminous]

Sorry that cannot happen no matter how hard someone trys.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

Let me introduce you to another thread...you might want to check it out... you can begin by reading my post which is a responce to an interpretation by someone of a passage from the Qur'an.http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/98889-seal-my-heart-5.html my post is number 47. I only wish you DID have things of the spirit of God. but you don't. all you have is Idol scripture.

 

[Danny Heim]

Sorry that cannot happen no matter how hard someone trys.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

That is because the spirit you adhere to, the Holy Spirit, is what rings your bell. Do you think the spirit I adhere to would ring your bell? Not likely. That is because you have a spirit that is ringing your bell already, you don't need another, and neither do I. So, shouldn't we both say, "that's good enough, we are both happy"? What gives you the need for me to join with your Holy Spirit? Why do you feel the need to have others believe as you do? Of course your Holy Spirit is foolish to me, and I would imagine mine is foolish to you. But who cares? If you are happy with it, go for it. I'm happy. Aren't you happy for me that I am happy?

 

[Danny Heim]

outta sight outta mind? who cares anyway, they deserve to die in hell, otherwise i wouldn't be saved...right? :sarcastic

Right on dude, do it, burn 'em.
But seriously, they have their right to believe what they believe, even if it gets our goat, we gotta let it go, it's all we can do.

 

[Danny Heim]

You know, I came to this sight to kick some butt. But in the end, my own butt got kicked. I learned, to the point of epiphany, that the only butt one can kick is their own. And I had to ask myself, what is more important, unity or division? Me coming on here and saying you Christians with your view of hell has to go, how foolish I was.

So, all I think I was really trying to say, or to ask rather, is, "Can you help me out with trying to thwart the human race from its demise?" I thought, you could only help me out if you would let go of your beliefs long enough to get past the very serious issue of climate change. And I still do not know if we can get past it with such beliefs as what Christians have, I'm sorry, I have to say that. BUT! It ain’t going to do any good if I come in here screaming at you about your beliefs. You have them, I have mine, that’s the way it is. It doesn't change our dilemma.

I am sorry for my running down your beliefs, to Christians that is. I only ask that you look into the climate change issue, look really close, and determine whether or not we are on a course of great destruction. I have to ask that. Why? Because it's a matter of our future life and death. It's just plain old science. I am also sorry if I came to the wrong place to be an alarmist. I look at things in geologic time. In geologic time we have 6.57 minutes. So, whether or not you believe me, check it out for yourself, and maybe then you can forgive me.

 

[Luminous]

Right on dude, do it, burn 'em.
But seriously, they have their right to believe what they believe, even if it gets our goat, we gotta let it go, it's all we can do.

I only wish i was kidding. their fairy tales are going to make God punish their Anti-Agnostic ignorant ways with Spiritual Torture...then non-existance. It's a sad fate for all those who deny the rightious path they stepped away from. . Hell is not really a place, but a state of being...the state of denial of Agnostic Truth and God's true love. All those who deny the truth that God allowed them to be born with, and that is still obvious, make their own hell...in this life, and the next.
But you are right: argument and debate is basically pointless; in the end, the winnner is the person that doesn't give up. As Socrates once scorned the perils of argument: "In a democracy [debate centered society], one need only shout the loudest and for the longest." People rarely change any time fast... and any opinion can be held and argued.

 

[Beta]

That is because the spirit you adhere to, the Holy Spirit, is what rings your bell. Do you think the spirit I adhere to would ring your bell? Not likely. That is because you have a spirit that is ringing your bell already, you don't need another, and neither do I. So, shouldn't we both say, "that's good enough, we are both happy"? What gives you the need for me to join with your Holy Spirit? Why do you feel the need to have others believe as you do? Of course your Holy Spirit is foolish to me, and I would imagine mine is foolish to you. But who cares? If you are happy with it, go for it. I'm happy. Aren't you happy for me that I am happy?

friend , I don't think anyone is trying to convert or force anything on anyone else. This is a discussion forum and all of us can speak about our beliefs - or ???
Instead the threads run on and on and on with everyone just repeating what has already been said one way or another.
WE SHOULD LET GO !!! Of course the difficulty is that new people join the discussion and it starts all over again. :help: :sleep: .....

 

[Benoni]

The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following. A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

 

[Danny Heim]

friend , I don't think anyone is trying to convert or force anything on anyone else. This is a discussion forum and all of us can speak about our beliefs - or ???
Instead the threads run on and on and on with everyone just repeating what has already been said one way or another.
WE SHOULD LET GO !!! Of course the difficulty is that new people join the discussion and it starts all over again. :help: :sleep: .....

I certainly don't think anyone is trying to "force" anything. And "convert" may be the wrong word. Persuade may be better. This is what I've learned here, that we all have beliefs and the most important thing to do when all these beliefs vary so much, is to allow others to have them. In my case, I came here with an alternate objective, which was to tear down the idea of Hell because I thought it was a major block to our evolving into a higher consciousness. And we need a higher consciousness to get past the next 100 years of the human existence due to climate change. I still think that absolutely, but I've learned that I can not tear down the belief in Hell or any other aspect of any religion. I wish I could, but I can't, it's impossible.

So the only thing left to do is to attempt to get people to "get along" with others beliefs. And I mean get along very well, not just tolerate. Because we are going to need a tremendous amount of cooperation from everyone on the planet. Not because it is a cool thing to do, but because it's what we will need to stay alive as a species. When the impacts of climate change start hitting hard in about 30 years from now, this will be very clear. 30 years in the geologic time frame of humans is about 2 minutes.

Religious differences are a major block to this sort of thing. Climate change will bring this out. Because it will not be like a hurricane or any other event that takes place over night and the wreckage is fixed by all in a few short months. We can handle that most of the time. But with climate change it will be with us for centuries. A new paradigm will emerge and be forced upon us, we will have to band together like no other time in human history, and there will be no time for debating. I most likely will not be around for that. But I sure do not want to die knowing I participated in such ignorance as to allow this sort of thing to just come along and have done nothing to prepare for it. And believe me, preparation is the word we need to adhere to. Starting right now.

 

[Beta]

danny , I really can not see how man can stop climate change, i really can't. I believe we can ' put it off' for a while but then what ? IF man is the cause of it we would have to actively ' reverse ' our lifestyle which the majority of people would never agree to.
We kick even against the slightest reductions when absolutely necessary much less would we universally and voluntarily agree to change.
Man is obsessed with desire to increase and improve no matter what the cost.We always want more of everything.
As the Bible explains hell-fire it is the cleansing of evil from this earth, purifying it of all pollution by man. No Human will be able to stop that or even postpone it.

 

[David69]

isnt hell that place where life originates? the centre of the earth!

 

[Beta]

isnt hell that place where life originates? the centre of the earth!

Can you elaborate on this ? Don't really understand what you mean.
(btw, I'm in the North of England, not many posters from around here)

 

[Danny Heim]

danny , I really can not see how man can stop climate change, i really can't. I believe we can ' put it off' for a while but then what ? IF man is the cause of it we would have to actively ' reverse ' our lifestyle which the majority of people would never agree to.
We kick even against the slightest reductions when absolutely necessary much less would we universally and voluntarily agree to change.
Man is obsessed with desire to increase and improve no matter what the cost.We always want more of everything.
As the Bible explains hell-fire it is the cleansing of evil from this earth, purifying it of all pollution by man. No Human will be able to stop that or even postpone it.

You'll get no argument from me on that! That's exactly what I've been saying. We can't stop it, not in time anyway. That is why we will need the cooperation I’ve been speaking of, that is, to accomplish adaptive measures. We can just about forget mitigation. The dallying around governments are doing now is making it too late. We needed to start mitigation efforts 20 years ago. Now we are going to have to learn to live with it. But that learning is going to be very difficult. And most of all, the cooperation of everyone will be an absolute necessity to get it done, starting yesterday.

There will be no agreeing to the changing of lifestyles, that will happen by default of climate change. ie, drinking water only will be the norm within 50 years. You won't get to build your new home, because the trees remaining will be needed for oxygen. Cars? that's a laugh. There will be no operating economy to produce cars. All this and much more if we do not prepare, get smart and protect our butts. We go the storm shelter when a tornado hits don't we. This will be the equivalent of a tornado lasting for centuries, we'll be living in storm shelters. But if we take care, prepare, we can avoid a lot of this by simply adapting our infrastructures, economies and basic survival mechanisms for food, water and shelter. Understand just this, the ice sheet is half it's thickness than it was just 50 years ago. And melting faster all the time. Ice is what makes our planet what it is, it is what makes it inhabitable for humans. There are only 27 glaciers left in Glacier National Park, in 1850 there were 150. You can make a huge list of things like this just on ice issues alone. Not to mention an enormous problem going on with the acidification of the worlds oceans, rapid decline in biodiversity, loss of nutrients in plant life, water shortage, droughts, extreme weather events, shifting seasons, the migration of entire ecosystems, and much more. And guess what? These are what is happening now. In 30 to 50 more years most of the impacts of these issues will have multiplied many times over. In 100 years it will be catastrophic to the point of extinction. But only if we fail to take on adaptive measures.

We can adapt. But not without long term planning and organizing. A whole new infrastructure will need to be installed. Mitigation will come along naturally with adaptation, but you are absolutely correct, the ball has already started rolling, better learn to balance on it and walk with it.

 

[look3467]

Spiritual life is everywhere, just have to look for it.

Prior to Jesus? I say no, but after Jesus, Yes!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Danny Heim]

Prior to Jesus? I say no, but after Jesus, Yes!

Blessings, AJ

Seems you've found it.

 

[look3467]

Seems you've found it.

That's what its all about! The center of all the arguments is Jesus.

If we take Jesus out of the picture what have we left?

The same as it was before, no change.

Blessings, AJ