Let's talk about Hell

[URAVIP2ME]

So you are saying your god created evil?:sleep:

According to Isaiah [45v7] God created evil.
Evil in Scripture is not always synonymous with wrongdoing but calamity.
God intervenes in behalf of righteous ones using calamity as a necessary evil when necessary as with the action Jesus will take as described at Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19v11,14,15 when Jesus executes justice on behalf of the humble meek of the earth.-Psalm 92v7.

Proverbs 21v18 says the wicked will be a ransom for the righteous and the transgressor for the upright as Proverbs 2vs21,22 also mentions.

 

[look3467]

God created the potential for a soul to do evil, but did not create evil, for God is not evil, but presumed evil by some who have no understanding.

Case in point: You for instance, yes....you, you have within you the potential to do good or to do evil.

What prevents you from doing evil, is the knowledge of, understanding of Gods will in your life.

Had Jesus desired not to do the will of the Father, He would have been no different than we are.

Jesus had, as we have, the same potential to do good or to do evil, but Jesus had within what we all did not have, and that was life.

No, not life of the flesh, which He did have, but life spiritually, as one not tainted with sin, as we are.
We're tainted because we have no life spiritually, until Jesus, in our place took our death away, and gave us life.

So, what ever your interpretation of Satan or Lucifer is, I wouldn't be concerned with, for you, I, are the ones that potentially can become a devil, in our actions towards others, thus being evil without having a name like Satan or Lucifer.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Proverbs 21v18 says the wicked will be a ransom for the righteous and the transgressor for the upright as Proverbs 2vs21,22 also mentions.

In that verse I see Jesus as the wicked and the transgressor as a ransom for the righteous and the upright.

Jesus had to become all that we are if He were to take it all away from us and render us righteous and upright.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Benoni]

Ezek.28v15 most certainly contradicts your opinion friend.
Are you saying God created a perfect liar and murderer ???
v14 says Lucifer was an anointed cherub (angel) and God set him so.

Yes he did. Read the scriptures. God needed a perfect liar and murder to do God's negative work. What do you believe that Satan could pull the wool over God's eyes when God was not looking???????????????

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

 

[Benoni]

Satan is not Satan's personal name at his heavenly creation.
Satan the Devil made himself a Satan [resister] and Devil [slanderer]

From the start or beginning of his going bad, going wrong, the one now called Satan the Devil was created by God but Not created as a Satan or Devil.
Satan chose to make himself Satan the Devil.
A person can choose to be a doctor or lawyer but they are not made as that at the beginning, but they can be a doctor or lawyer from the beginning of their choosing to be so.

So before the one now called Satan told the first lie or first sin of Genesis 3v4 he was not a Satan or a Devil.

You give me nothing but opinion based on what?

Read the scriptures.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

 

[Benoni]

So you are saying your god created evil?:sleep:

No I am not; I am letting God’s Word tell me what God created. Now you show me in God's Word where it does not say God created evil??????????:sleep:


Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.


Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?
shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
(KJV)


1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the (KJV)

 

[logician]

The real question is, why would anyone invent a religion where a supposed loving god punished you for eternity?

 

[Danny Heim]

God created the potential for a soul to do evil, but did not create evil, for God is not evil, but presumed evil by some who have no understanding.

Case in point: You for instance, yes....you, you have within you the potential to do good or to do evil.

What prevents you from doing evil, is the knowledge of, understanding of Gods will in your life.

Had Jesus desired not to do the will of the Father, He would have been no different than we are.

Jesus had, as we have, the same potential to do good or to do evil, but Jesus had within what we all did not have, and that was life.

No, not life of the flesh, which He did have, but life spiritually, as one not tainted with sin, as we are.
We're tainted because we have no life spiritually, until Jesus, in our place took our death away, and gave us life.

So, what ever your interpretation of Satan or Lucifer is, I wouldn't be concerned with, for you, I, are the ones that potentially can become a devil, in our actions towards others, thus being evil without having a name like Satan or Lucifer.

Blessings, AJ

Spiritual life is everywhere, just have to look for it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You give me nothing but opinion based on what?
Read the scriptures.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNINGand abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING.For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

At 1st John 3v8 John is talking about the beginning or start of Satan's career of opposition to God. Isn't 'beginning' also used at 1st John 2v7 B and 3 v11?
A deliberate practicer of sin originates with Satan, not God- [John 8v44].
Who gave birth, so to speak, as the lifegiver or 'Father of the lie' at Genesis 3v4 where Satan [not God] told the first lie.
God can not lie -Titus 1v2.

What was said about Cain at 1st John 3 v12?
Cain was of the wicked one [Satan]. Cain chose his course. Didn't God warn Cain beforehand? What would be the point of God's warning if Cain was programmed to be wicked?

1st John 1v9 says 'if' [showing choice] if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive.......to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Isaiah 54v16 God created the ruinous man for a wrecking work.
God will use the 'waster to destroy' or carry out God's purpose as Isaiah 10v5 says that the Assyrian was the rod of God's anger and the staff in their hand is God's indignation. God will use the military or political ax, so to speak, to destroy [Rev 17v17] .
Isaiah 54v 17 shows that no weapon a smith can make can have success [prosper] to wipe out God's people, but God can use the 'waster' to wipe out what God considers false against him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The real question is, why would anyone invent a religion where a supposed loving god punished you for eternity?

To further their own motive and agenda and not God's ?

Weren't the religious leaders of Jesus day [Matt chap 23] teaching oral tradition or customs over written Scripture? [Mark 7v7,13]

'Fire' could be used as a scare tactic to control people.
At one time a person could be excommunicated for having a Bible.
At one time a person could be burned alive for having a Bible.
Fear of eternal fire would help deter one from disobeying if they were taught to believe the biblical hell was not the cold-stone common grave of mankind where the dead sleep until resurrection day, but torture.
[John 11v11-14; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecc 9v5,10; Dan 12vs2,13]

That would indicate there were those that wanted the Bible hidden from people. That way it would be easier to put words in Jesus mouth, so to speak, instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, thus furthering their own agenda, often political. Don't the clergy often use the pulpit as a recruiting station so that parents will sacrifice their sons on the alter of war instead of heeding Jesus words of Matthew 26v52; Revelation 13v10 not to live by the sword......

 

[Etritonakin]

The "eternal" part is essentially an ultimatum.

God does not want to torment anyone without end.

He does not actually want to torment anyone.

However, he gave us a choice between life and death -blessing and cursing...

God cannot allow evil into eternity. It must be eradicated.

Some have brought up the subject of free will -but what would God do if the free will of one or more beings was directed against himself -and his plan?

God is essentially saying "Do or die" -but we must realize he gave the choice to die.

Consider this....
God does not want any to die -or to do evil....
so ...what would God do with those who desire to remain alive -yet refuse to stop destroying?

Should he immediately destroy them -or try to teach them?

 

[Beta]

The real question is, why would anyone invent a religion where a supposed loving god punished you for eternity?

This point has already been discussed time and time again.
Man is mortal and will die in the lake of fire if he remains wicked and unrepentant. Numerous scriptures bear that out. Eternal hell-fire is prepared for the devil and his angels , not for man even though the wicked are cast into it. They (being physical and mortal) will burn up and be ashes under the feet of the saints who will be immortal Mal.4v3.

 

[logician]

This point has already been discussed time and time again.
Man is mortal and will die in the lake of fire if he remains wicked and unrepentant. Numerous scriptures bear that out. Eternal hell-fire is prepared for the devil and his angels , not for man even though the wicked are cast into it. They (being physical and mortal) will burn up and be ashes under the feet of the saints who will be immortal Mal.4v3.

Actually, the multiverse is chaotic/random, and is eternal, no creator god needed.:sleep:

 

[Benoni]

This point has already been discussed time and time again.
Man is mortal and will die in the lake of fire if he remains wicked and unrepentant. Numerous scriptures bear that out. Eternal hell-fire is prepared for the devil and his angels , not for man even though the wicked are cast into it. They (being physical and mortal) will burn up and be ashes under the feet of the saints who will be immortal Mal.4v3.

The lake of Fire is spiritual in nature; no where does it say in The Book of Revelation John was being literal in any since of the word. But God's Word does declare John was in spirit on the Lord's Day. The fire in the Lake of Divine Purging is NO different then the very "fire" that God used in the beginning of the Church age which was referred to as cloven tongues of fire when the day of Pentecost had full come.


AGAIN God is a spirit; man may have need for physical fire, but what use natural/physical fire have to the realm of God.

 

[Beta]

Actually, the multiverse is chaotic/random, and is eternal, no creator god needed.:sleep:

Have you any valid references to support your belief - apart from human opinions ?

 

[Beta]

The lake of Fire is spiritual in nature; no where does it say in The Book of Revelation John was being literal in any since of the word. But God's Word does declare John was in spirit on the Lord's Day. The fire in the Lake of Divine Purging is NO different then the very "fire" that God used in the beginning of the Church age which was referred to as cloven tongues of fire when the day of Pentecost had full come.


AGAIN God is a spirit; man may have need for physical fire, but what use natural/physical fire have to the realm of God.

As you say - God has no need of literal fire but man has. The destruction of wicked people applies to those living on earth and still human and mortal and unrepentant. There will be no wicked people in God's realm to suffer any kind of eternal torture.

 

[Danny Heim]

Have you any valid references to support your belief - apart from human opinions ?

When it comes to eternity and life after death, it is all opinion. Mine, yours, everyone that has anything to say about, it is all opinion. After opinion, all one has is belief. One book from another does not prove anything. I wrote my spiritual belief a few pages back, is that proof? Absolutely not. Are the Vedas proof, the Koran? What proof in the entire world exists anywhere about this subject. It is all belief. Believe what you believe, but do not covet it (and that, is just another opinion).

 

[no-body]

That would indicate there were those that wanted the Bible hidden from people. That way it would be easier to put words in Jesus mouth, so to speak, instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, thus furthering their own agenda, often political. Don't the clergy often use the pulpit as a recruiting station so that parents will sacrifice their sons on the alter of war instead of heeding Jesus words of Matthew 26v52; Revelation 13v10 not to live by the sword......

You want to talk about "putting words in Jesus mouth" yet you constantly quote John of Patmos and Paul? A madman and a self hating Jew respectively. Why isn't Joseph Smith speaking the truth but those two are?

 

[Danny Heim]

What a learning experience this has been for me. Number one, you can't make black white. I can not change you, you can't change me. That leaves me with this, I have to work with you as you are. If you are a Christian, Muslim, a Jew, a Satanist, a Pagan...whatever you are, I have to work with it. If I want to have your help, that is. If I want to be a human being along side you, I have to work with what you believe, and what I believe simultaneously. There is no way around it.

So, I need to forget conversion. In fact, conversion is perhaps the dumbest thing we attempt on earth. Because when it comes to belief, even if you manage to convert, you've done nothing. All you have done is change one belief to another. All beliefs are valid because it is belief that makes you what you are. And YOU are valid. Why, because you are alive and not dead. You only can be a human along side me if you are alive. I'll gladly take you that way, when you are dead all I can say is, “good luck, I hope your belief turns out ok”.

 

[Benoni]

As you say - God has no need of literal fire but man has. The destruction of wicked people applies to those living on earth and still human and mortal and unrepentant. There will be no wicked people in God's realm to suffer any kind of eternal torture.

Why would God not change the wicked instead of destroy them? The Jesus I know; he never condemned anyone when He walked the shores of Galilee. How can they repent? God never called them. Salvation is from God not human will or choice.


You never showed me proof John was being literal; seeing I gave you scripture which declares John was in spirit on the lord's day.