Let's talk about Hell

[URAVIP2ME]

Jollybear-

Thanks for your reply.

Are the doctors saying the person three or more days dead had No breath and No heartbeat/ pulse? _____ I have heard of brain dead but still breathing and heartbeat.
Rigor Mortis sets in a few hours after death. After 12 hours the body is in full Rigor Mortis.
After three days the body bloats up, etc.

Why say the soul is conscious?_____ Since the soul is Not immortal, and the soul dies according to Ezekiel 18vs4,20, and Jesus believed the dead are in a deep sleep-like state- John 11vs11-14 -then the dead are Not conscious as Solomon wrote. Ecc 9v5,10.

Adam did not become a living soul [Gen 2v7] until God breathed the breath of life into Adam's lifeless body. Then Adam became a living soul. No where does it say Adam came to have a soul, or Adam came to possess a soul, rather Adam became a soul or person. From dust to dust. Adam had no conscious existence before receiving the breath of life. Adam had no conscious existence at death or at returning to the dust.
Adam became a dead soul.

Even angels are mortal. That is why Jesus can destroy Satan as Hebrews 2v14 B says.
Jesus is the 'seed' that will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head. -Gen. 3v15.

 

[ThirdEyeOpen]

yet when you die your supposedly no longer in human form... so when you die you are no longer mortal... your dead. Id like to know where you've got your thinking process from.

 

[Etritonakin]

We will most definitely need the help of God. A plan? not me dude.

He declared the end from the beginning. All of this IS the plan. There is nothing that has happened -or can happen -which has escaped God's knowledge or understanding.

He created a vacuum for truth.

That which is within you, which strives to answer every question, he created within you.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Pro 25:1 These are also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Pro 25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.
Pro 25:4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
Pro 25:5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

CONSIDER>>>>

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[no-body]

No_body



Are you asking yourself these questions or are you asking me them? If your asking me them, well I asked you a question first, could you answer my question, it was...

They are rhetorical questions to answer your question. Hell is like unicorns, sure there are signs of them in old books and from men long gone but we have no real proof that they ever existed.

I agree, I was speaking generally. But yes, I agree there can be a lot more than two views on a subject. But there are not countless views. They do reach a limit.

To teach critical thinking means you also have to give different views to the kids, so they can PRACTICE critical thinking. If you give them only one option to believe, do you then encourage critical thinking to that one option? If so, they will then not believe it since they are being critical of it. If you don’t encourage them to be critical of it because they need to believe it, because it’s “true” then you’re not teaching them critical thinking.



Someone else may believe in astrology and think it is based in reality. They may think it’s true. So why not teach both sides?

Because using empirical theory we see that astrology has no basis in reality. When it does effect anything it's based on coincidences and the law of averages.

Actually, why not teach both sides of origins?

Because evolution is what we have most proof of at the moment. At most creationism deserves a 5 second mention saying this is what some people believe but we don't really know. In science there is only one objective reality... the one that can be tested and that we have true evidence for. Of course that is somewhat flawed but it is better than just saying "god/allah/nature/whatever did it" Science needs to be agnostic, what the scientist believes is their own business.

How are they just all about faith and how is there no critical thinking involved?

Because there is no real proof. You can't do an experiment or gather evidence for them except for flawed subjective reports.

Good question, I got that question a lot in conversations I have had. And I have the answer for you believe it or not.

Here’s the answer: your right, it’s NOT JUST. But, it’s NOT GOD that did the INJUSTICE, it was ADAM and EVE that did it. God told them that the day they eat it, they will die. So they eat it and grew old and started to die. Their bodies were going to get weak and die and decay, so as they passed down there seed, there seed was in there CURSED BODY, so what does that mean? The seed will also be TAINTED with that same curse that was brought on their body. Adam and eve were given RESPONSIBILITY. When people have responsibility and do good, it effects in a good way those under their responsibility, and if they do bad, it effects in a bad way those under their responsibility. This happens all the time in the world. Leaders do bad, it effects the many others under their care, it happens all the time.

A mother gets pregnant and drinks tons of alcohol, what happens? That goes to the baby, is that just? NO, but is that injustice done by God? NO, it’s done by the mother. You see my point?

A guy sees a child and rapes and kills her, is that just? Obviously not, but is the injustice done by God? No, it’s done by the sicko. So why not ask “well why should the child be doomed for the action of the rapist and killer?” well it should be that way because when a knife goes in you or if they get shot, it SUPPOSE to kill you if that happens. Why does it suppose to do that? Because that’s how it WORKS, you shoot the body, it destroys the function. That’s why the child gets doomed.

Next question? SHOULD the murderer choose to MURDER? NO. but if he DOES choose to murder by shooting her, should she die? Yes, because that is how guns work. If she did not die even after getting shot 100 times, would that look good? No, that would be messed up. Should the gun shots effect the function? YES, otherwise we would be living in a magical world without ORDER to it and without cycle.

Simple short answer, Adam killed us, NOT God. Blame Adam and eve, don’t blame God. The only thing you can blame God for is giving free will, which is a good thing by the way. Free will is great to have. It keeps us from being robots.

Any questions to this?

Yes this is a typical answer. I think that is bunk... God made the rules and laws. If he was a truly just God he would have made it so Adams sin wouldn't have traveled down to us. Instead he made Jesus and killed him in a disgusting way so he could have more worshipers. It doesn't matter that men killed him, God required the bloody sacrifice because he willed it. All in a sick sadistic experiment just to prove a point--free will.

Tell me how eastern spirituality justifies or gives a foundation for morals?

We are all connected. As humans we can feel empathy and the pain that other beings feel. To be free from suffering we must strive to be good and kind to all of creation. Part of this is karma and reincarnation, but frankly I see these things as metaphors since they are not provable with science but it doesn't matter. The ideas have power.

And waiting for Jesus return or heaven to come to earth has nothing to do with morals by the way. It only has something to do with morals if that is ALL your doing is sitting around, not being active while you’re waiting for this.

But, can you justify morals? What is the foundation for morals in YOUR view? I need more then “eastern spirituality” details?

To keep society growing and functioning. To minimize the suffering of others. Again, simple empathy. When it comes from a true place, when it is something that is just inherent in society that has more value than because you think you are going to be punished or rewarded.

Keeping government and society neutral to all beliefs and religions is a fundamental goal or view of the secularist person. Thus, they are fundamental in there secularism, if they are consistent secularists.

How are they not fundamental?

Also how are ALL beliefs neutral in government and society? Anytime a government or someone in society makes a decision, it’s based on a belief or a view on something. And someone else may have a different view, therefore it’s NEVER neutral. Someone’s belief or view gets put forward whether we like it or not.

So we should never try to keep things neutral because you think people can't keep their biases out of their thinking? I think this is dangerous thinking. The individual can makes decisions from their personal belief system but they must keep in mind in an official capacity they must view all religions and believes neutral from an objective humanist perspective. If someone where to go "fundamentalist" with this view it would be a good thing.

I asked you what was wrong with my statement, you did not show me what was wrong with it, you just made a new statement yourself.

Show me what is wrong with my statement here

“At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God’s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That’s why God said “do not use my name in vain”.”

Also I will deal with YOUR NEW statement based on it’s merit, as I do, I still want you to deal with my statement based on it’s merit.

What you see as cruel and selfish, is not cruel and selfish, it’s JUSTICE. Some criminals in some jails think it’s cruel how they are treated, is it cruel or is it justice? Just because they “SEE” it as cruel does not make it cruel. They are only seeing it that way because THEY are SELFISH.

Why do you think God is cruel and selfish for doing justice?

You think God should have NO justice, no discipline, no judgment?

God defines the laws, the definition of justice etc. I do not see it from my point of view as fair. The father and mother is not only the police they are the law the jailer the executioner etc. It is a conflict of interest.

 

[Jollybear]

URAVIP2ME

Jollybear-

Thanks for your reply.

Are the doctors saying the person three or more days dead had No breath and No heartbeat/ pulse? _____ I have heard of brain dead but still breathing and heartbeat.

Right, some cases are like that. I remember one, the guy was put in the morg. When you’re in the morg, doctors make SURE your dead.

Rigor Mortis sets in a few hours after death. After 12 hours the body is in full Rigor Mortis.

After three days the body bloats up, etc.

Why say the soul is conscious?_____ Since the soul is Not immortal, and the soul dies according to Ezekiel 18vs4,20, and Jesus believed the dead are in a deep sleep-like state- John 11vs11-14 -then the dead are Not conscious as Solomon wrote. Ecc 9v5,10.

Why say it’s conscious? Because there is evidence for that being so, and Jesus and the bible also believed it to be that way. There is different kinds of death. There is spiritual death, which is when we sin and our relationship to God is broken. That is what Ezekiel 18:4-20 is getting at. Jesus believed the body sleeps, not the soul. He believed that because he believed they would rise from the dead, like waking up.

If Jesus did not believe in a life after death, why did he say “in my Father’s house are many mansions, I am going there to prepare a place for you”? Also why did he say to the thief on the cross next to him “today you will be with me in paradise”? also why did he say that one time there was a rich man and a poor man who both died, and angels came and got the poor man and brought him to Abrahams side and the rich man found himself in hell in torment? Why did he mention this? Also why did he say that many would come from the north, south, east and west and see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of HEAVEN? Why did he say all this if he did not believe this? Are you aware of those scriptures?

Adam did not become a living soul [Gen 2v7] until God breathed the breath of life into Adam's lifeless body. Then Adam became a living soul. No where does it say Adam came to have a soul, or Adam came to possess a soul, rather Adam became a soul or person. From dust to dust. Adam had no conscious existence before receiving the breath of life. Adam had no conscious existence at death or at returning to the dust.

Adam became a dead soul.

God made Adams spirit around the same time he made his body. He breathed his spirit into his body and it gave his body life. Just how a baby is.

Even angels are mortal. That is why Jesus can destroy Satan as Hebrews 2v14 B says.

Jesus is the 'seed' that will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head. -Gen. 3v15.

Angels are not mortal. Satan has been around for thousands of years, he is still alive. He was alive in the garden of Eden, he was alive at the time of Christ (thousands of years after). Also that bruise to Satan’s head did not mean he would die, Jesus bruised his head by the cross and resurrection, but Satan was still around after that. Jesus beat the devils plan by dying on the cross and rising. That is what that means.

 

[Jollybear]

No_body

They are rhetorical questions to answer your question. Hell is like unicorns, sure there are signs of them in old books and from men long gone but we have no real proof that they ever existed.

In old books it was said that there was PINK unicorns? May I have that source?

Also hell is not like unicorns because there is evidence for hell. People who have had near death experiences and out of body experiences have experienced a place that is hell.

Because using empirical theory we see that astrology has no basis in reality. When it does effect anything it's based on coincidences and the law of averages.

Ok, I agree with you on astrology, but why not let the children decide if it’s based on coincidences and the law of averages or not? Why should we decide what is coincidences to them or not? That does not teach them critical thinking skills, that teaches them not to be critical.

Because evolution is what we have most proof of at the moment.

No, not proof, perhaps evidence you have for it, with assumptions and interpretations attached, but you don’t have proof for it.

At most creationism deserves a 5 second mention saying this is what some people believe but we don't really know.

This is false. There is lots of websites and books on intelligent design and they don’t take 5 seconds to explain it.

In science there is only one objective reality... the one that can be tested and that we have true evidence for. Of course that is somewhat flawed but it is better than just saying "god/allah/nature/whatever did it" Science needs to be agnostic, what the scientist believes is their own business.

If science approaches it to find out the ACTUAL explanation rather than LIMIT it to just a NATURAL explanation, then that is GOOD. If they don’t do that, that is not good.

If you think it’s good to limit it, may I ask why, if you think that?

there is no real proof. You can't do an experiment or gather evidence for them except for flawed subjective reports.

There is no 100% proof for intelligent design, but there is no proof for your view of Darwinian evolution either.

Yes this is a typical answer. I think that is bunk... God made the rules and laws.

Yes, he made the rules and the laws because he made everything else, literally made everything else. He is in the position to know what is best and therefore to implement it. So, why not him make the rules?

If he was a truly just God he would have made it so Adams sin wouldn't have traveled down to us.

Wrong, that is stupid, Adams seed is a PART OF HIM. Likewise the egg in Eve is a part of Eve. Therefore the child is going to have a part of them in them. Plus the reason why God won’t separate the curse from the seed is because God set it up in such a way to where we HAVE RESPONSIBILITY in our relationship to GOD and TO OTHERS. Also God set it up to such a way that if you SIN, breaking his laws, it can damage your relationship to God and to OTHERS. Why does God do this? TO SHOW YOU how bad sin really is. If you don’t trust him that sin is REALLY that bad, then you will find out the HARD way that sin is REALLY that bad. If sin did not hurt, there would be no value to laws being in existence. If we had no responsibility, there would be no value to relationships, because nothing would hurt. What kind of magical world are you living in?

So yes God is just and WISE for setting it up this way. It would be a non cyclic world and magical world if he did not set it up this way. It would be a world where things we value, would no longer be valued. That is a weird and boring kind of world. I should make a thread titled “what would you do differently, if you were God and what would the implications be to your decision making”. Sounds catchy.

Instead he made Jesus and killed him in a disgusting way so he could have more worshipers.

Your twisting the story, God came down IN THE FLESH and died himself, gave his life willingly for us in the hands of the murderers. He did not do it to get more worshipers, he did it to save those who wanted to come back to him. He did it to show both his justice and mercy.

It doesn't matter that men killed him, God required the bloody sacrifice because he willed it. All in a sick sadistic experiment just to prove a point--free will.

It was not an experiment, it was deliberate. He knew what COULD happen if they used free will to do bad, he knew that, but he gave it anyway because that is better than robots.

We are all connected. As humans we can feel empathy and the pain that other beings feel. To be free from suffering we must strive to be good and kind to all of creation. Part of this is karma and reincarnation, but frankly I see these things as metaphors since they are not provable with science but it doesn't matter. The ideas have power.

As an individual, why is pain and suffering important to stay away from? If you say because it feels bad to suffer, ok, why is that important?

 

[Jollybear]

To keep society growing and functioning. To minimize the suffering of others. Again, simple empathy. When it comes from a true place, when it is something that is just inherent in society that has more value than because you think you are going to be punished or rewarded.

Why is growing society important?

So we should never try to keep things neutral because you think people can't keep their biases out of their thinking?

No, I was not saying they CAN’T keep their biases out of there thinking, I said government CAN’T do so, SOMETHING has to be enforced. Every decision is based on a value, and a value is based on belief.

I think this is dangerous thinking. The individual can makes decisions from their personal belief system but they must keep in mind in an official capacity they must view all religions and believes neutral from an objective humanist perspective.

By making a decision based on their personal belief some other people who don’t hold that belief will disagree with them. Therefore, it’s not neutral. Is it?

If someone where to go "fundamentalist" with this view it would be a good thing.

That is assumed. Why do you assume it’s good?

God defines the laws, the definition of justice etc. I do not see it from my point of view as fair. The father and mother is not only the police they are the law the jailer the executioner etc. It is a conflict of interest.

How is it a conflict of interest? The mother and father USUALLY know better than the child does, so the child should trust them in most cases. In God’s case he definitely knows best, for two reasons, he created the universe and he came down INTO the universe as a man and suffered. Plus even if it is a conflict of interest, that does not mean God is UNTRUSTWORTHY. You assume he is bad with his motives.

I told you why God is fair, why do you think I am wrong? What is wrong with my sentence?

“At least that shows God to be a God of justice and Satan to be someone to be a who cares anything goes type of creature. But besides that, not EVERYTHING done in the name of God is truly done under God’s DIRECTION. People can USE God for their own selfish agenda, and yes, it happens. That’s why God said “do not use my name in vain”.”

Do you think God should do justice at all?

 

[Etritonakin]

He declared the end from the beginning. All of this IS the plan. There is nothing that has happened -or can happen -which has escaped God's knowledge or understanding.

EDIT...
This is not to say that we can not have original thought or action -(creativity -which is the whole point), but that God not only understood how that could potentially be used, but also temporarily limited our creative influence (potentially destructive influence) by making us mortal -and causing us to be made in such a way as to require direct manipulation to express creativity (the physical body). Reliance upon the environment for our survival -food, water, sunlight, etc.. also limits the scope of our creativity, but was more for the purpose of causing us to think about living within a system. We spend most of our time working to keep ourselves alive -but this is for a purpose -and can be quite enjoyable.

 

[Danny Heim]

2 questions
Save our butts from what?
climate change
And how is not believing in hell going to save our butts from whatever we need saving from?
It will aide in the raising of our collective consciousness. Having thinking like that retards that ability. Two reasons for that, its morbidity, and it says we have a God that gives us two choices, follow him or die. This sort of thinking is stifling to growth. (I think I've already answered this to you before??)

I see what you’re saying but your acting like people who believe in hell, that this is ALL they think about. This is not so, people who believe in hell also live there daily life as well. They are also concerned with this life. I am anyway.

Sorry if I gave you that impression, but no, I don't think Christians are obsessed with the idea. In fact, they tend to deny it to themselves that they even have that thinking, it's too horrifying. Note I am talking about the typical hell of the majority of Christians.

How is believing in hell do away with trying to “stay alive right now”?
Obviously, for one, your head would be in the afterlife, and not in the here and now. Also, it has a hopelessness and defeating aspect to it.
Note, these questions like this are difficult to answer in the sense that the answer is obvious, but at the same time lack words for description, how does one describe the pain of a Gallbladder attack, you can’t really, you just say it hurts real freaking bad. J

Depending on what view of hell is applied that is.
Yes, you have convinced me of that, good job.

Depending on how you look at it. If God is perfect in wisdom, it would be foolish to not listen to him.
Well, that’s the whole point, if God has this scenario line up for us, then his wisdom sucks.

I don’t see exactly what you’re saying here, no? Hell is a separation of us? Yes, I understand how that is. Hell in itself is a separation from God and others, but how is BELIEVING that there is a hell, how does that separate us?
A Christian thinking this way causes me to not want to deal with them, plus, it put a us and them in on things from the Christians point of view, it says we are heaven people, you are hell people.

Come together to do what?
Agree on new and sustainable system paradigms for civilization.

Also why do you think someone that believes in a hell, that this equals them not being willing to come together to help out on a noble purpose or task for the world?
Because they have defeat in there heart already just by believing such a thing exist. It also puts them sort of as non citizens of the world, they are waiting on the afterlife, and the earth becomes a place to avoid, rather than cherish.

How does believing in hell put us all at a distance?
How does it bring us together? BTW, you asked this already, "but how is BELIEVING that there is a hell, how does that separate us? "

No, this is not true; it is only true for SOME individuals who name the name Christian. Most Christians live in the here and now, in this world, in this life, we do. We have jobs, wives, kids, family, fun times. We live in the NOW. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
Not in their minds. And even if that life in their minds only occupy a small portion of time, it still prevents them from dealing with the earth as if it could last forever, which it can, if we make it so. But we are doing just the opposite with Christian belief, in fact, it says the earth is a sinners paradise and the real world is the afterlife.

Misunderstanding, God is going to come back and do away with all the BAD stuff. That is a better representation. That’s how I represent it anyway, I don’t know or care how another “Christian” would represent it, but that is how I read the bible. And I’m right and there wrong, lol.
I'd say so on that one. But will he do it here forever, or wisp us off to ether.


I grant you there are some stupid Christians out there. The bible does not say sit around and wait, it says be ACTIVE WHILE you’re looking forward and waiting for his return or waiting for him to show.
Well, having this sort of belief, I'd do the same so I can't blame them. It set's it up that way subconsciously.

100 years for what? Details please.
For climate change to potentially make the world uninhabitable. Details on that you will need to study for yourself, it's just too much to deal with here. It's a science thing.

We can all still believe and have differences and still come together to do a noble task to save our butts. But I am curious, save our butts from what?

Yes, but that is the point, we don't come together, and we certainly are not showing any signs of wanting to save our butts. "save our butts from what?" You ask this already. It was your first question.

No, they won’t unless individuals LET them dominate. There are two kinds of people in the world, caring and selfish. No matter what our belief or ideology is, we should CHOOSE to be caring for others and NOT selfish when it comes to relationships with other people.
Well, when that starts happening, let me know.

Even though I believe in hell and you don’t, how does that keep us from coming together to do something that does not relate to the concept of hell?

Because the gap is simply too wide to come together. Of course, I am referring to doing a task of changing the entire paradigm of the planet. Not pizza preferences. J

 

[Danny Heim]

He declared the end from the beginning. All of this IS the plan. There is nothing that has happened -or can happen -which has escaped God's knowledge or understanding.

He created a vacuum for truth.

That which is within you, which strives to answer every question, he created within you.

That to me is simply not believable. And even if it were true, it is very bad planning. I strive to answer every question because I have free will, not because I've been programmed to do so, again, that is not believable. It make me an idiot puppet, I am not that. I asked questions because there are stars up there and water down here, it is the wonder of things that makes me ask, and I ask, because I can ask, that privilege comes with having a brain.

 

[Danny Heim]

EDIT...
This is not to say that we can not have original thought or action -(creativity -which is the whole point), but that God not only understood how that could potentially be used, but also temporarily limited our creative influence (potentially destructive influence) by making us mortal -and causing us to be made in such a way as to require direct manipulation to express creativity (the physical body). Reliance upon the environment for our survival -food, water, sunlight, etc.. also limits the scope of our creativity, but was more for the purpose of causing us to think about living within a system. We spend most of our time working to keep ourselves alive -but this is for a purpose -and can be quite enjoyable.

I think this is true on an individual basis, minus the god aspect, but the collective mind of the human species is perpetual and ethereal, and so it does not apply. Also, this dynamic does not need a God to exist; it is natural within the bounds of being alive. You are implying a manipulation outside of ourselves that make us what we are, we are because we simply are, and need no outside influence to be that, again, free will. If anythig that God did to make us what we are, it was to give us the free will to become it, and we are not done yet, because we are forever becoming.

 

[Danny Heim]

We are all connected. As humans we can feel empathy and the pain that other beings feel. To be free from suffering we must strive to be good and kind to all of creation. Part of this is karma and reincarnation, but frankly I see these things as metaphors since they are not provable with science but it doesn't matter. The ideas have power.

That is very true, thanks for that. The ideas do have power, proving or disproving them becomes a useless task, because their damage already been done and is being done.

 

[Beta]

I think this is true on an individual basis, minus the god aspect, but the collective mind of the human species is perpetual and ethereal, and so it does not apply. Also, this dynamic does not need a God to exist; it is natural within the bounds of being alive. You are implying a manipulation outside of ourselves that make us what we are, we are because we simply are, and need no outside influence to be that, again, free will. If anythig that God did to make us what we are, it was to give us the free will to become it, and we are not done yet, because we are forever becoming.

We can only 'go on becoming' while we are alive. Once we are dead our consciousness has gone and we are no longer aware (or in charge) of what happens on earth. Life goes on only for the living Eccl.9v5,6.
That is the reason God wants us to prepare ourselves for the next life - that is the choice or free will we have been given Deut.30v19 . Our free will is to choose life or death and find out how each side will affect our future. WE do not determine the future , we only get to know how it will affect us - depending on choice .:yes:

 

[Etritonakin]

I think this is true on an individual basis, minus the god aspect, but the collective mind of the human species is perpetual and ethereal, and so it does not apply. Also, this dynamic does not need a God to exist; it is natural within the bounds of being alive. You are implying a manipulation outside of ourselves that make us what we are, we are because we simply are, and need no outside influence to be that, again, free will. If anythig that God did to make us what we are, it was to give us the free will to become it, and we are not done yet, because we are forever becoming.

Whether one believes God created us or that we evolved, what I said is true for all (that our creativity is limited by various factors) -not just individuals. True. It is also true that our free will means nothing without the environment which we can manipulate -which is ALSO a manipulation outside ourselves that makes us what we are -whether by design or random circumstance.

If the collective humand mind ceases to exist -should we become extinct, let's say -it would no longer be perpetuated. It also had a beginning -whether slow or sudden.

Assuming we simply evolved...
should the human species avoid becoming extinct forever -which is extremely unlikely -the collective human mind (which tends to forget and/or doubt history) might be perpetuated, but individual minds are lost forever -until such time as we might understand how to keep this from happening -which would also require making the body perpetual, having a perpetual supply of bodies into which to download, or devising some method of self-storage or interface with mechanical bodies -(which doesn't sound fun to me). Regardless, those lost before this time would still be lost forever.

If God does exist, no one is lost.

If God does not exist, we can make mistakes that cannot be undone.

If God does exist, all things can be made new. If he does not exist, we are at the mercy of cosmic/natural events (at least for now, some might think -if we aren't taken out before we gain power over the universe). If he does, he has the power -should he also have the will -to manipulate cosmic/natural events -and eventually make us able to do the same. If he exists, this does mean he either causes natural/cosmic events -or allows them -including major disasters -but as his focus is not on this short life, and he has the ability to resurrect any, they are not truly as disasterous as we may think them to be.

There are many things which are impossible to man -which would not be impossible if a being exists which is not subject to human limitations.

Humanity should never give up trying to solve its problems -should never stop learning or trying. However, we may learn that we are incapable of the evolution of which you speak. If we simply evolved, we may find that nature -which has no will of its own -may supercede our own will to survive in any number of ways. We may also find that the will of one man may cause the destruction of many -perhaps all -other wills -even his own. This is a real possibility today. We may also find that we did not simply evolve -and that God was at the beginning -and is waiting at the end -to keep our inevitable end from happening.

All of these IFs, however, would fall away if we truly knew what happened before we existed. If God does not exist, we are essentially on our own. We are at the mercy of each others' "free will" -which doesn't always include mercy at all.
If God does exist, HIS free will -let's not forget to consider his free will -will would essentially count for more than our free will -just as the CEO of a company has more sway than someone in the mail room -or as a parent's free will must supercede that of a child -until it need not.

Whether any of this needs a God to exist or not -it either DID come to exist by the free will of God -or it did not. If it did come to exist by his free will, he may deem it necessary to use that free will to supercede ours -or take it away altogether if we refused to not destroy.
We humans take away peoples' free will daily by war, incarceration, execution, abuse, authority, and simple decisions. We cannot all have what we want when we want it -even here on earth -on a good day -the bigger picture must be considered -and we must be denied. (This relates to the commandment about covetousness, also).

I understand that some do not believe God exists -or simply don't know if he exists or not -but he either does or does not. I know he does -but understand you may think that to be impossible. For argument's sake, however... If he does exist, you will eventually know he exists. If he does not, I will eventually see that as true.

None of us can not think as we now think. All of us will think differently. Some of what we believe will remain -rightfully so -and some will not.

 

[Jollybear]

Danny_Heim

And how is not believing in hell going to save our butts from whatever we need saving from?

It will aide in the raising of our collective consciousness. Having thinking like that retards that ability.

If a Christian believes in helping out in THIS world and being a Stewart of the earth along with believing in a hell and a heaven, how does that retard the ability to come together and help with the task?

Two reasons for that, its morbidity,

Not my view, my view is justice. Don’t you agree?

and it says we have a God that gives us two choices, follow him or die.

What’s wrong with that? If he owns this universe and he owns your body and he owns your life, since he made it all, you belong to him, the only thing he GIVES YOU is your will, but then he asks for it back FREELY by you. If you don’t give it, then you die. What is wrong with that? If he made this universe and you, why is it unreasonable that he asks you to follow him?

This sort of thinking is stifling to growth. (I think I've already answered this to you before??)

How is it stifling to growth? I don’t understand? No you did not answer this before. You may have answered it based on your understanding of FALSE Christian theology, but that is not MY theology.

I see what you’re saying but your acting like people who believe in hell, that this is ALL they think about. This is not so, people who believe in hell also live there daily life as well. They are also concerned with this life. I am anyway.

Sorry if I gave you that impression, but no, I don't think Christians are obsessed with the idea. In fact, they tend to deny it to themselves that they even have that thinking, it's too horrifying.

Deny it to themselves? I don’t deny that I believe in a hell. I proudly admit it. But like you said, you realize they are not obsessed with the concept.

Note I am talking about the typical hell of the majority of Christians.

I kind of felt that. What about my view of hell though?

How is believing in hell do away with trying to “stay alive right now”?

Obviously, for one, your head would be in the afterlife, and not in the here and now.

No, you can still live in the HERE and NOW and still think of an afterlife. To illustrate, I am HERE and NOW typing on the computer a message to you, but I am also thinking about working TOMORROW so I am going to call my landscaping boss. That demonstrates that you can live in the here and now and still plan or prepare for tomorrow. Me and my wife are going on vacation for a few days to murtle beach in June, we both PREPARED for it by taking those days off through filling out the papers at our work to take them off. We were doing that in the HERE and NOW for the DAYS AHEAD. And even though we are thinking about that day of vacation in June coming up, we are STILL LIVING our lives in the here and now. We still do daily stuff. You see what I am getting at here? Believing in a afterlife and even thinking about it here and their does not stifle productivity in the here and now.

Matter of fact, this brings me to want to say something else. Some Christians or religious people can think of heaven all they want to, if they don’t PREPARE for heaven, thinking of it is not going to do them much good. It would be like me thinking of going on vacation but never preparing by putting those days off.

Also, it has a hopelessness and defeating aspect to it.

No it doesn’t, my view of hell does not have a hopeless aspect to it, UNLESS the person in hell REFUSES to repent from the heart, THEN he is hopeless. Plus those who believe in the HOPELESS hell can still come together to help with a task with the earth.

Note, these questions like this are difficult to answer in the sense that the answer is obvious, but at the same time lack words for description, how does one describe the pain of a Gallbladder attack, you can’t really, you just say it hurts real freaking bad.

ok

Depending on what view of hell is applied that is.

Yes, you have convinced me of that, good job.

That’s good, so you think my view of hell is good then?

Depending on how you look at it. If God is perfect in wisdom, it would be foolish to not listen to him.

Well, that’s the whole point, if God has this scenario line up for us, then his wisdom sucks.

Explain more? I don’t understand?

I don’t see exactly what you’re saying here, no? Hell is a separation of us? Yes, I understand how that is. Hell in itself is a separation from God and others, but how is BELIEVING that there is a hell, how does that separate us?

A Christian thinking this way causes me to not want to deal with them, plus, it put a us and them in on things from the Christians point of view, it says we are heaven people, you are hell people.

This is a big misunderstanding on your part about the TRUE heart of Christianity and particularly a true Christian. A true Christian does not think your hell bound because they think they’re better then you are, this is not about who is better or worse for them, it’s about what they believe, and their belief is based on history and evidence, archeology, spiritual experiences and evidence. Neither are they judging you by saying you ARE going to hell, it’s more of they are saying the bible SAID you are going to hell IF you don’t follow Christ, and we happen to BELIEVE in Christ, so by default we believe you are going to hell if you don’t follow him. We don’t think this of you because we think we are better, no, Christ died not just for you, but for us TOO, why? Because we are just as bad as you are, and therefore we are going to hell as well, but, Christ came to save us from that, and we decided to PUT our trust in him to save us.

That is what it’s about for us. So based on that, why have hard feelings toward the Christians, I am referring to the TRUE ones. Of course there are going to be some who may THINK they are better then someone else, but you’re going to get those people everywhere you go.

I remember talking to a girl at work, we got to talking about hell, long story short, I told her based on what she believed, that the bible says she is going to hell. Well, she did not directly say to me after that that she thought I did not LIKE her, but she told someone ELSE that she thinks I don’t like her. So this person she told that too, told me, and she was right there while they told me, I happen to come up into the gate way. She looked embarrassed as he told on her. I looked at her and said “why do you think I don’t like you for?” she said “because you said I was going to hell” and I was like “oh my gosh, are you serious? I told you I BELIEVE in the bible and that the bible HAPPENS to say you are going their IF you don’t follow Christ. That does not mean I don’t LIKE you. I have no hard feelings toward you as a person.” Anyway, the point I am trying to make to you is this, she got the WHOLE idea wrong. I don’t understand how we can’t LIKE each other even though we happen to believe different stuff? It’s not like I believe this about you because I hate you, or you did something bad to me, it has nothing to do with that, it has something to do with a belief based on history and evidence.

 

[Jollybear]

Come together to do what?
Agree on new and sustainable system paradigms for civilization.

We can do that and still believe in hell. Sure, why not?

Also why do you think someone that believes in a hell, that this equals them not being willing to come together to help out on a noble purpose or task for the world?
Because they have defeat in there heart already just by believing such a thing exist.

How is there heart defeated by believing in a hell? How do you know it’s not the other way around, those who don’t believe in hell are defeated in their heart?

It also puts them sort of as non citizens of the world, they are waiting on the afterlife, and the earth becomes a place to avoid, rather than cherish.

I am not a citizen of the united states, I am a citizen of Canada, but I LIVE in the united states, I am ACTIVE in the united states, I WORK in the united states, I eat in the united states, I sleep in the united states, I am debating online IN the united states right now, I do things in the united states, but I am NOT a citizen of the united states. A Christian likewise is a citizen of heaven through Christ and what he did for them, but they are still ACTIVE IN THE EARTH. Do you see my point? They are still active in the earth and can be so MORE yet still be a citizen of heaven.

How does believing in hell put us all at a distance?
How does it bring us together? BTW, you asked this already, "but how is BELIEVING that there is a hell, how does that separate us? "

It don’t bring us together nor does it separate us, it has nothing to do with bringing us together or separating us. It’s what we believe in, we can however CHOOSE to come together to help in a noble task for the earth IF that is what we believe in. Believing in a hell won’t stop us from coming together, BELIEVING in NOT HELPING in a noble task for the earth WILL keep us from coming together. You see?

No, this is not true; it is only true for SOME individuals who name the name Christian. Most Christians live in the here and now, in this world, in this life, we do. We have jobs, wives, kids, family, fun times. We live in the NOW. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Not in their minds. And even if that life in their minds only occupy a small portion of time, it still prevents them from dealing with the earth as if it could last forever, which it can, if we make it so. But we are doing just the opposite with Christian belief, in fact, it says the earth is a sinners paradise and the real world is the afterlife.

When they are thinking of heaven, THEN at that TIME in there mind they are not in the present. But if they are doing a task, whatever it is, they are then thinking about that task that they are doing IN the present. So that means we CAN come together and THINK in our minds about the noble tasks that can be done IN the PRESENT. So their minds are not always in the future. Even though they believe the earth is going to be destroyed, they still believe in being good Stewarts of the earth and helping others. If the earth is going to be destroyed, they don’t believe it should be destroyed by THEIR hands or there neglect.

Misunderstanding, God is going to come back and do away with all the BAD stuff. That is a better representation. That’s how I represent it anyway, I don’t know or care how another “Christian” would represent it, but that is how I read the bible. And I’m right and there wrong, lol.

I'd say so on that one. But will he do it here forever, or wisp us off to ether.

Yes, when God comes back he will wipe evil out of the earth and it will stay out forever.

I grant you there are some stupid Christians out there. The bible does not say sit around and wait, it says be ACTIVE WHILE you’re looking forward and waiting for his return or waiting for him to show.

Well, having this sort of belief, I'd do the same so I can't blame them. It set's it up that way subconsciously.

Well I would blame them because it’s an IMBALANCE to be that way. It has a flawed twist to the belief and a wrong practice to it. There believing that Jesus will return (that is good) but they don’t believe in helping in the present and being good Stewarts (that is bad).

100 years for what? Details please.

For climate change to potentially make the world uninhabitable. Details on that you will need to study for yourself, it's just too much to deal with here. It's a science thing.

So scientists are making the prediction that in about 100 years FROM NOW or from when? This earth will die?

No, they won’t unless individuals LET them dominate. There are two kinds of people in the world, caring and selfish. No matter what our belief or ideology is, we should CHOOSE to be caring for others and NOT selfish when it comes to relationships with other people.

Well, when that starts happening, let me know.

See, that is what needs to start happening though, it’s not about one’s belief, it’s about ones choice to be selfish or caring. That is what it boils down too. And if it is about one’s belief, then it’s ONLY about one’s belief about being caring or selfish. If someone believes in being selfish, then they will be selfish, which needs NOT to be done. So if you can get people to stop believing in being selfish, THEN you will meet your objective. But stopping them from believing in a hell won’t stop them from being selfish. I think you would do better by trying to show them the stupidness of there selfishness and persuade them to turn from that.

Even though I believe in hell and you don’t, how does that keep us from coming together to do something that does not relate to the concept of hell?

Because the gap is simply too wide to come together. Of course, I am referring to doing a task of changing the entire paradigm of the planet. Not pizza preferences.

I still don’t understand how believing in hell will prevent us from coming together, I can however see selfishness preventing people from coming together.

 

[Etritonakin]

Because the gap is simply too wide to come together. Of course, I am referring to doing a task of changing the entire paradigm of the planet. Not pizza preferences.

Veggie -pan -add pineapple and jalapeno -banana peppers and garlic butter dipping sauce on the side..... and a Dr. Pepper, please.

 

[Jollybear]

I like all that and chicken on it.

 

[Danny Heim]

Veggie -pan -add pineapple and jalapeno -banana peppers and garlic butter dipping sauce on the side..... and a Dr. Pepper, please.

pepperoni with liverwurst please

 

[Danny Heim]

We can only 'go on becoming' while we are alive.

Life goes on only for the living

Good, let's do that then. That is what I hope to see, that life goes on for the living. I am not worried about my being dead, or your being dead, we are alive. I want life to perpetuate on this earth and on all earths of the universe, that truly is the point. We are "living" in a way that does the opposite of that.