no-body
Well-Known Member
So basically all the heathens are screwed no matter how many good works they perform just because they don't believe in Jesus. That is the definition of an unjust God to me.
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Let's talk about Hell
- Thread starter Danny Heim
- Start date
So basically all the heathens are screwed no matter how many good works they perform just because they don't believe in Jesus. That is the definition of an unjust God to me.
teresasetfree
New Member
If you only knew what Jesus endured and did for you and me,then anyone to not except this free gift he so lovingly bestows. Decides to send their own soul to hell. The hell that was not made for them but for the devil and his angels. God does not intend for one to parrish,but John 3:16 tells us about the free gift of redeeming us from this place of torment..
It doesn´t have to be against Gods mercy if he is not merciful to begin with. And what you speak of, it may be the justice of the God you believe in, but it sure is not justice.
it's_sam
Freak of Nature
what your all missing out of this story is that ed had burned for those many years, he felt that pain and lived that life X a zillion. if god says your out and throws you into fire but still clinging to life, does it sound like he is making you pay for what you did? or giving you another chance to make up for it through learning, wich is pain. learning hurts... ask any skateboarder, but you can get good. really good. and sometimes even amazing and do something someone has never done in the face of time. if god wanted someone to be gone from his sight you realy think he would then go and send him somewhere else? he could blink all of existance out in a wink yet he wants people to suffer with fire, and have no purpose to that? remember... INFINATE patience and understanding.
I don´t believe in Jesus, so how can I decide to send my own soul to hell by denying him?
There are many people in this world that has suffered more then Jesus.
it's_sam
Freak of Nature
everyone suffered... we have all paid a price to be here. but you really wont admit the possibility that someone named jesus came and fulfiled a prophecy that had been written for 1000 years, only to be not at all what they expected so they killed him? i find it not only a great story true or not, but more then likely real if not slightly embelished. i also feal like if jesus were here he wouldnt want us to focus on how he suffered but why, to put an end to that way of life so people could be individualy self sufficient and not rely on greedy swindlers for everyday things. keep in mind he was a carpenter/builder he provided services for people in return for trade/money but he probably also knew its just a part of life and he can offer it so why not let it be free, or maybe even at cost. his miracles asside people like this have lived and live still today and maybe god was just showing us a taste of what we can have if the events happened as a physical act, or he was showing us someone who can offer them a path to those possibilities in death if the events happened supernaturaly i.e. visions,dreams, etc..
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It is not about not admitting anything. It just does not make sense to me. There is a difference.
RiverSeed
Plodding Along
My heart goes out to Ed. It is easy for me to become angry towards the god that sent ed to such a horrendous place. If I do become angry, however, then I must recognize that that anger comes from me.
In the same way, If I, as Ed, am in such a state of pain, then I must recognize that this pain I am feeling comes from myself. Not god.
Regardless of where God sends me, it is there that I am, and all feelings that I have, and conditioning that I feel comes from myself. If I can accept that, then no matter where I am, be it heaven or hell, all becomes Satori.
:foot:
In the same way, If I, as Ed, am in such a state of pain, then I must recognize that this pain I am feeling comes from myself. Not god.
Regardless of where God sends me, it is there that I am, and all feelings that I have, and conditioning that I feel comes from myself. If I can accept that, then no matter where I am, be it heaven or hell, all becomes Satori.
:foot:
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone personally or to their religious beliefs, but all these passionate references to Jesus and his sacrifice and his gift to mankind have absolutely nothing to do with the original issue, which is whether or not the concept of eternal punishment, both physically and spiritually torturous confinement to Hell, is consistent with the concept of an omnibenevolent God. More simply put, would a perfectly just God sentence human souls to everlasting pain and anguish, eternal spiritual and physical punishment, for not accepting Christ as the Savior? The OP suggested, if I remember correctly, that the notion seems somewhat absurd and inconsistent with the concept of a perfectly just and perfectly merciful God.
I mean no offense to you, teresasetfree, but even the content and tone of your post seems to rely far too heavily on emotional appeal. To me, this is a question which can and should be considered with cold, detached reason. And I just don't see how it has anything to do with Jesus' "gift".
Too often, I believe, religion relies on emotional and psychological tactics to attract practitioners.
Whenever someone challenges absurd notions like an eternal Hell of punishment for a single sin committed by a stupid, fallible human, too often Christians and other religious adherents start talking all passionately about Jesus' sacrifice and his gift, as well as the pain and suffering he endured on our behalf. Or, they attempt to psychologically terrorize people into believing in their concept of God with threats of firey lakes and eternal torture.
Is the concept of Hell as a place of eternal physical and spirtual torment reasonable and is it consistent with God's proposed perfect nature considering the offense for which it is to serve as punishment?
no-body
Well-Known Member
God sacrificed Himself for Himself through rules that He set up in the first place. It doesn't sound like He endured much of anything to me. The end product of all this is for humanity to better worship and obey Him. I can see how this attracts a lot of people though, the world is big and frightening; it's all much simpler if we hand ourselves over to daddy and allow Him to make all the scary decisions for us.
The fact that He would condemn saintly people just because they don't shut off their brains and unquestionably believe something in a book is monstrous. What if I think the other religions make more sense? Who gave me my faculties?
Scripture does not support eternal torment in hell for man.
The lake of fire (everlasting fire) is prepared for the devil and his angels (who are spirit and not matter and mortal like man) Mat.25v41.
The wicked unrepentant human sinners will be cast into that same fire but being of material composition will burn up ......and become 'ashes' under the feet of the saints Mal.4v3. How could this be so if they were eternally tormented ?
It's time people woke up to the truth and stopped giving God a bad name. :shout
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Actually, with all due respect, I don't think anyone is giving or trying to give "God" a bad name. I think some people are merely questioning some concepts of God and Hell put forth by particular religions.
For example, while you assert that humans will expire upon being placed in a lake of fire and not have to endure eternal torment, I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household and that is not what many fundamentalists teach. I can tell you that some Southern Baptists (and I believe some Methodists and Church of Christ practitioners as well) believe humans will endure enternal punishment for the sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit, for not accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior.
I am not trying to say one belief is more correct than another. And personally, I am certainly not trying to give God a bad name. I just find certain concepts of Hell to be absurd and I was sincerely wondering if anyone could possibly explain and validate those particular models.
So, I guess, if you don't believe in an eternal Hell as punishment for lost souls, then the question doesn't apply to you. And in that regard, no one is questioning your particular concept of Hell.
Danny Heim
Active Member
What you are saying goes like this:
"Hey dude, would you like to follow me?" Dude says, "No." Avatar says, "Oky doky then, could you please hold this gas can so I can strike this match to set you on fire?"
Decides to go to hell? Are you kidding? "free gift he so lovingly bestows"--doesn't sound like a gift when if you don't accept it, you burn in flames forever--sounds more like a tyrants ultimatum
Danny Heim
Active Member
'Fire' in Scripture is often symbolic of destruction.
When something is burned up in fire it becomes ashes or destroyed.
The Lake of fire according to Revelation is: the second death.
So the definition of the lake of fire is death; second death.
What is death according to Scripture but a state of deep sleep.
[Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13; Ecc. 9v5; John 11vs11-14]
So those described as being in 'second' death means no resurrection or awakening from death's sleep ever.
The Biblical hell is then mankind's common grave were Jesus was for a few days.until God resurrected him. -Acts 2 vs27,31.
It is emptied-out 'Hell' that dies a symbolic second death according to Rev. 20 vs13,14. Emptied-out, vacant, void-of-people hell is cast into second death.
The world scene today is showing all in heaven and earth that mankind can not successfully direct his step or rule himself.
We can accept the gift of God's rulership in the hands of his crowned king Christ Jesus starting with Jesus 1000-year rule over earth when Jesus, with everlasting life in view, ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
-Matt 25vs31,32,46
Danny Heim
Active Member
sounds intelligent, but...
Danny Heim
Active Member
Oh Happy1, you opened up the can there. Let me answer your 2nd question first. "Play it safe", I sort of think that was the whole idea in the first place, that is, coming up with the idea of hell. Hey, you have good logic there; sure, one should play it safe. Of course you'd have to believe it in order to play it safe. But is that the sort of heaven you want to spend eternity in? A place where people get in with a fake ID card? If I'm going to go to heaven, I do not want to be scared into it. What you are saying is no different than saying "You're the man" to a rapist.
Your first question is really a good one, seriously. And I'm surprised more Christians don't ask it. Because if we non-believers don't believe, then why don't we just ignore it and go on about our business and leave you alone? Is that about right?
Here's why. At least for me here's why. It is because what you are teaching is affecting the progress of the human race. More specifically, it is retarding the evolution of the human species. Evolution happens on scale, in other words, we ALL need to evolve, at least a very large majority in order for it to stick. If you guys don't quit spreading your teachings pretty soon, we are going to go extinct. We need to evolve as a species and we need to do it real quick. The world is falling apart, i.e. climate change and failed economic systems. If we continue on this course we will surely be lost to the sand. To get beyond all this, we need to get smart, real smart. We need to learn that our survival (the species that is) is a higher cause than our ideologies. These ideologies we fight over are going to kill us. And it won't be war, it won't be sea level rise, but it will be famine, water contamination and disease. These things are just around the corner. So I fight against beliefs that are ignorant and stifling to growth, and there you have it.
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MY personal opinion is not at stake here - we are talking about truth and the reputation of GOD. Plenty people give God a bad name because of this false teaching .
I happen to bring to your attention scriptural facts that blow your concept of eternal suffering out of the window, should you not rejoice ? We know that certain churches still hold to this error but in Christ we have a 'personal' Saviour who deals with INDIVIDUALS first. We are first made responsible for our own belief .
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
First of all, I didn't realize God was worried about his reputation. Actually, I am pretty sure if there is a god, then he most certainly isn't worried about his reputation. And if I'm wrong about that, then I could care less about knowing any god whose primary concerns are pretty much the same as those of every sixteen-year-old, high school cheerleader.
Secondly, I don't hold any concepts of eternal suffering. I said I was raised around fundamentalist who hold such beliefs. I personally find such concepts to be unbelievable due to inherent absurdity.
Thirdly, I am not trying to blow anybody's beliefs out the window. I was sincerely asking if those people who do hold such concepts of hell could possibly explain and validate them. I am not here to change anyone's mind. I am here to satisfy my own.
Fourthly, while I certainly mean no disrespect to you or to your religious beliefs, I thought this forum was for debate and discussion, not proselytizing. The OP was about concepts of hell. As a matter of fact, it questioned a particular concept of hell which you claim to reject. If you want to challenge that concept, like some of us others have done, then you are in the right place. If you are here to preach the good word of Jesus and salvation, then you are only doing a disservice to Christ. If I wanted to be preached to, I would go to church. And when people like you fling your beliefs at me irregardless of time, place and relevant subject matter, it only indicates to me a lack of Christ-like tact and understanding of the current issues at hand. In other words, if you are being guided by God, his reputation just dropped significantly in my perception due to your actions, not because of what others have said about him.
Pursuant to the OP, we are talking about concepts of hell in which humans might suffer eternal damnation due to punishment by God. If you are here to rejoice about Jesus or stick up for his reputation, then I believe you are in the wrong thread.