Let's talk about Hell

[Eliot Wild]

So you are quite happy to hear people's opinions by all means but not scripture because that would be preaching and is frowned on. Is God not allowed an opinion ?

I'll be glad to give due consideration to God's opinions if he/she ever shows up personally to give them to me. But, if he/she is posting in this thread, especially in response to something I have written, he had better stay on topic. And if he/she starts preaching to me about salvation rather than discussing the issue at hand, I would respectfully point out his error just as I did yours.

And this is why I personally find many religious people to be abrasive and disrespectful. I have done my best to be polite and respectful in all my responses. And yet, you seem to want to play coy. You want to be condescending.

You probably know very well that simply declaring on your own that you are personally speaking for God by quoting scripture is NOT validation of anything. I could also write that everything I personally believe is the Word of God and should be accepted as divinely authoritative. And then where does that get us. Regardless of the issue, we'd be at an impasse. Both claiming our knowledge of God to be more sound.

Just spitting out scripture and providing a personal interpretation as to its meaning does not provide proof of anything. And it certainly is not God's opinion. I do not believe that God is stupid enough to attempt to communicate his message to mankind in an ancient text that has been re-written numerous times and has copious diverse interpretations in current print.

The truth is, I only take the time to reply because I was hoping you would see how some people really are interested and sincere in wanting to hear others thoughts on these issues. If all you are going to do is direct people to an ancient text you claim is the Divine Word of God, then that is not true debate nor discussion. It is religious arrogance. It is condescending. It is pedantic and pointless. And if it deviates from relative topics to declarations of Jesus' sacrifice and the salvation offered through Christ, then it is proselytizing.

If God has an opinion on fallacious concepts of hell, then let him buy a computer and get internet access like everyone else.

 

[Danny Heim]

So you are quite happy to hear people's opinions by all means but not scripture because that would be preaching and is frowned on. Is God not allowed an opinion ?

Well, that's a little bit of a strange way to say it Beta, but yes, I would suppose God can have an opinion here. But I think what Eliot is asking for is your opinion on the issue of this thread, not God's, big difference.

As for me, you can preach all you want Beta, I don't care. In fact, I consider that I am preaching here myself. I want to convince Christians to give up on the Hell idea because it is retarding much needed evolution, that's preaching isn't it, Eliot? In fact again, I would say I'm on a giant crusade and very proud of it. Whoooh unto to you Christians, heed to evolution before it’s too late!!

Seriously though, I would not be here just to have this discussion without having a cause to do so, it's not that fun. I believe wholly in my cause, I am dedicated to it and very passionate about due to its inherent need. And I imagine Beta feels the same about her/his belief. If we are doing wrong or breaking a rule (of which I always seem to do) then let us know. And I personally apologize if my witnessing is offensive, sincerely. I respect your opinion Eliot and in fact in any other case I’d agree. But I’ve chosen to break the prime directive and interfere with others beliefs, it’s just that serious.

 

[Danny Heim]

Actually, with all due respect, I don't think anyone is giving or trying to give "God" a bad name.

I am, the Christian God anyway, he's crazy.

 

[Eliot Wild]

I am, the Christian God anyway, he's crazy.

LOL . . . Well good luck in your endeavor. But I don't think you or I or anyone else is really capable of soiling God's reputation, even if some others claim we are doing so.

What we might be able to accomplish, however, is to challenge and discredit irrational concepts of God.

Personally, I ain't looking to pick a fight with God, if he/she really exists. I want to learn TRUTH. And in an effort to do so, I am willing to give due consideration to anyone's theories of God and all theological extensions thereof, such as differing concepts of hell.

And if those who believe in God want to express an opinion on the relative topic at hand, then I'd certainly like to hear it. But imagine how dysfunctional this forum would be if every other poster, irregardless of thread topic, just wanted to tell you about Jesus and Salvation like some cheap car salesman trying to push a used Chrysler on you.

I honestly believe that sometimes I have more respect for Jesus than the people who claim to worship him and be saved by him. Some of these people strut around claiming divine knowledge, and really all they are doing is peddling Jesus like he was some kind of shammy cloth or cutlery set that we'd see in a late night television infomercial. It is pathetic. Jesus and Salvation have nothing to do with the original question. And my suspicion is that those who peddle Jesus are really just on some kind of self-serving ego trip, trying to point out to the rest of us how they have found some TRUTH we were incapable of finding ourselves. It is just their silly, arrogant way of trying show how they're the smartest kid in the class.

 

[Danny Heim]

LOL . . . Well good luck in your endeavor. But I don't think you or I or anyone else is really capable of soiling God's reputation, even if some others claim we are doing so.

What we might be able to accomplish, however, is to challenge and discredit irrational concepts of God.

Personally, I ain't looking to pick a fight with God, if he/she really exists. I want to learn TRUTH. And in an effort to do so, I am willing to give due consideration to anyone's theories of God and all theological extensions thereof, such as differing concepts of hell.

And if those who believe in God want to express an opinion on the relative topic at hand, then I'd certainly like to hear it. But imagine how dysfunctional this forum would be if every other poster, irregardless of thread topic, just wanted to tell you about Jesus and Salvation like some cheap car salesman trying to push a used Chrysler on you.

I honestly believe that sometimes I have more respect for Jesus than the people who claim to worship him and be saved by him. Some of these people strut around claiming divine knowledge, and really all they are doing is peddling Jesus like he was some kind of shammy cloth or cutlery set that we'd see in a late night television infomercial. It is pathetic. Jesus and Salvation have nothing to do with the original question. And my suspicion is that those who peddle Jesus are really just on some kind of self-serving ego trip, trying to point out to the rest of us how they have found some TRUTH we were incapable of finding ourselves. It is just their silly, arrogant way of trying show how they're the smartest kid in the class.

Oh I couldn't agree more, it gets very out of hand. And I'm not really wanting to pick a fight with God either. Well, not with him/her/it directly, but in as sense you could say I am, at least with the Christian God, because it appears to me this God came out of the human mind and it is humans I am concerned about.

As for the topic at hand, I'm the thread starter of this topic and I fully intend to stick to the topic. Having this sort of belief going around in billions of people's minds is doing us ALL no good. It's hard enough to evolve as it is, let alone having a huge corner of the collective mind trashed up with such nonsense. And the fact that the Christian religion commands it followers to send it to "all four corners of the world" doesn't help a thing. So, they are on a campaign, and so am I.

 

[Beta]

Well, that's a little bit of a strange way to say it Beta, but yes, I would suppose God can have an opinion here. But I think what Eliot is asking for is your opinion on the issue of this thread, not God's, big difference.

As for me, you can preach all you want Beta, I don't care. In fact, I consider that I am preaching here myself. I want to convince Christians to give up on the Hell idea because it is retarding much needed evolution, that's preaching isn't it, Eliot? In fact again, I would say I'm on a giant crusade and very proud of it. Whoooh unto to you Christians, heed to evolution before it’s too late!!

Seriously though, I would not be here just to have this discussion without having a cause to do so, it's not that fun. I believe wholly in my cause, I am dedicated to it and very passionate about due to its inherent need. And I imagine Beta feels the same about her/his belief. If we are doing wrong or breaking a rule (of which I always seem to do) then let us know. And I personally apologize if my witnessing is offensive, sincerely. I respect your opinion Eliot and in fact in any other case I’d agree. But I’ve chosen to break the prime directive and interfere with others beliefs, it’s just that serious.

Even though we are on opposite sides of beliefs I respect yours as you respect mine. Thank you ! much appreciated !
Apparently my belief offends some people as I have already had two warnings and feel am not far off a third with people complaining.
I'm sorry if I upset some but all I want to do is talk about my side of things which just happens to be God. These are after all religious discussions so why can God not be allowed to speak - surely there is nothing more religious than God or ??? What's more - other people quote God - are they also in trouble ?
(and yes i'm female and harmless)

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

It's hard enough to evolve as it is.

are you sure you understand the Theory of Natural Selection?
or are you using the word "evolve" to describe something else?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

So hell is the complete absence of God.

this is, by far, my favorite definition of hell. i can't wait. i will finally be able to buy beer on sundays.

 

[Danny Heim]

Even though we are on opposite sides of beliefs I respect yours as you respect mine. Thank you ! much appreciated !
Apparently my belief offends some people as I have already had two warnings and feel am not far off a third with people complaining.
I'm sorry if I upset some but all I want to do is talk about my side of things which just happens to be God. These are after all religious discussions so why can God not be allowed to speak - surely there is nothing more religious than God or ??? What's more - other people quote God - are they also in trouble ?
(and yes i'm female and harmless)

What warnings have you recieved, that's seems sort of strange. Are they from the administrators? I'd like to know, becasue I thought this part of this site was for open debate??

 

[Danny Heim]

are you sure you understand the Theory of Natural Selection?
or are you using the word "evolve" to describe something else?

Very good questions and I'm very glad you ask, thank you. Yes, I am using evolve metaphorically I suppose. I could be saying higher consciousness also, but I still see it as an evolution of sorts. I have no real idea what that would ultimately mean. Do we float around with big eyes? I doubt it. But we certainly need a good shot of intelligence coming into this world. We need a much better collective consciousness going, more cooperative, otherwise, we are down the tubes within a 100 years. We are a mess. I mean, when is Jesus coming? He should-a been here by now.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We need a much better collective consciousness going, more cooperative, otherwise, we are down the tubes within a 100 years. We are a mess. I mean, when is Jesus coming? He should-a been here by now.

Habakkuk also wondered [1v2]. The reply was [2v3] that it will surely come, it will not be late.

First, before the time of Jesus glory, or divine intervention into mankind's affairs [Matt 25vs31,32], as Revelation chapters 17 and 18 show the political kings [world rulers] will first turn on the world's false religious sector or 'queen'. -[Rev. 18v7]

Since the United Nations already sees a dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today with Backing the UN can be strengthen to turn on religion that has run amok playing false to God.

Also, according to Rev 11v18 B God will intervene before mankind can bring ruin to earth. Jesus as God's Prince of Peace will usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[Danny Heim]

Habakkuk also wondered [1v2]. The reply was [2v3] that it will surely come, it will not be late.

First, before the time of Jesus glory, or divine intervention into mankind's affairs [Matt 25vs31,32], as Revelation chapters 17 and 18 show the political kings [world rulers] will first turn on the world's false religious sector or 'queen'. -[Rev. 18v7]

Since the United Nations already sees a dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today with Backing the UN can be strengthen to turn on religion that has run amok playing false to God.

Also, according to Rev 11v18 B God will intervene before mankind can bring ruin to earth. Jesus as God's Prince of Peace will usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

that'd be good, he'd better hurry

 

[URAVIP2ME]

that'd be good, he'd better hurry

Matthew [24v14] reminds us that Jesus will not intervene before the good news [gospel] of God's kingdom, or royal government in the hands of Christ Jesus is proclaimed on a global scale, or earth-wide scale, then will the end come of all badness on earth.

Apparently there are still sheep-like ones [Matt 25v32] responding to the good news so by the time Jesus takes action against his enemies [ Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15] all the sheep will be gathered to Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, and no one righteous will be destroyed. -Psalm 92v7.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

we are down the tubes within a 100 years.

i think you are giving the current cultural paradigm too much credit, and the species not enough. i mean, we are in the process of recognizing the severity of a huge mistake we have made - we are developing defense mechanisms against ourselves, that is incredible. we are smart enough to survive. we have only really been destroying the planet, and our future along with it, for as long as we've been operating under a certain set of illusions. we are being freed of those illusions more and more as we are seeing the effects of believing things that aren't true. one such untruth that really cripples us is that the world is created for us. but we are learning around that very quickly as the evidence stacks up. with a population our size it is more difficult for these necessary changes to effect the species in any kind of timeliness. so maybe we dont need to 'evolve' - maybe we just need to shrink in numbers.

this is outrageously off topic. i misplaced my manners somewhere, apologies.

 

[Danny Heim]

i think you are giving the current cultural paradigm too much credit, and the species not enough. i mean, we are in the process of recognizing the severity of a huge mistake we have made - we are developing defense mechanisms against ourselves, that is incredible. we are smart enough to survive. we have only really been destroying the planet, and our future along with it, for as long as we've been operating under a certain set of illusions. we are being freed of those illusions more and more as we are seeing the effects of believing things that aren't true. one such untruth that really cripples us is that the world is created for us. but we are learning around that very quickly as the evidence stacks up. with a population our size it is more difficult for these necessary changes to effect the species in any kind of timeliness. so maybe we dont need to 'evolve' - maybe we just need to shrink in numbers.

this is outrageously off topic. i misplaced my manners somewhere, apologies.

I have to question whether or not "we are smart enough to survive". The fact that we still have concepts like Hell in so many of our heads tells me we are actually sort of dumb, collectively that is. And any species that puts its own self in the path of such demise as we've created for ourselves has not evolved very far. Sure, we have technology, big deal. Our technology has at the same time put the entire planet at risk of collapse.

And therefore this topic. Hell is one reason We can't see what we are doing, or that we can't see our destructive path. It clogs the mind and set's it up to be fear based. Any animal running around in fear loses its way and falls of a cliff. Deep down we are in a panic, because there is a thought there that we could burn forever. That causes a very deep scar in the psyche, damaging it so that growth of the collective psyche becomes extremely retarded. So we make dumb decisions like burning fossil fuels for energy, we've allowed our numbers to get to an unmanageable level, and we continue with these things even knowing their results, showing us to be really dumb.

I believe the concept of Hell has done more damage to our species than any other because it puts us in a mind of destruction and violence. Just having the thought in our head is violent. A very dumb brain is one that doesn't know how to use its smarts, that’s us in a nutshell. And now we are forced to go into emergency evolve mode to learn how to use our smarts. Not because it's a good thing, not because it's spiritual, not from love or enlightenment, but because we simply won't survive if we don't. We can get past this, but I firmly believe we won’t until we get things like Hell out of our heads. That may seem simplistic, but there is always a root cause to a disease. We have the disease of self annihilation; it comes from Hell.

 

[Etritonakin]

I believe I'm in the right spot. I want to talk to Christians about Hell. That is all I wish to talk to you about, though I will not reject to your witnessing at all, besides, that is what I'm doing. Witnessing for the right to evolve. So fire away. But please, I would appreciate it if you could keep this debate to Hell only. Thank you.

It's a question really, one I must ask by making a statement first. Well, a story really. But just to get the idea, Why Hell?

Let's go to Hell for a minute.

I'm Ed and I'm dead; a human on earth who failed to get salvation from Jesus Christ. In the Christian faith one either goes to Heaven or goes to Hell sometime after death. In this case, Ed is going to Hell.
--------------------------------------
I gotta ask. How’d this idea ever get this far?

OK -first... not sure if anyone addressed this yet, but... though many believe the bible says we go to heaven or hell when we die -IT DOES NOT.

It actually clearly states that NO MAN has ascended into heaven except Christ -who came down from heaven....

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It is also clearly stated that David -called by God a man after his own heart -did not "go to heaven"... but that he essentiallly went to sleep until a time then future...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

1Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

...just as everyone who has died "in Christ" have not "gone to heaven" (though their spirit has returned to God -yet remains unaware until eventually resurrected)....

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: .....

...and all who have ever died NOT in Christ are NOT "in hell" or even purgatory at this time -but are also still "asleep" -and will be resurrected about 1,000 years after Christ returns and resurrects those who were "in Christ" when they lived initially. These are the first and second resurrections. Those who are raised to the second resurrection may receive eternal life then -depending upon their works rather than specific knowledge of Christ or the law -but some whose works and attitude warrant it will then be cast intoo the lake of fire. HOWEVER -for these it is not necessarily a permanent state.... note the following....

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The first to be cast into the lake of fire (Gehenna), are the beast and false prophet, even Satan will not be cast there until 1,000 years after them...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So here we begin to see some pretty permanent-sounding language... "for ever and ever"... referring to the beast, false prophet and Satan. We also read concerning those who worshipped the beast during their lives...

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

..which says these shall be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels -and that the smoke of their torment ascendeth for ever and ever ... but doesn't actually specifically state that THEY will continue to be tormented throughout all eternity without the possibility an end to that torment....

When reading scripture, you have to NOT take one line -or even just a few -and assume anything. God specifically had it written that way -so that it takes diligent, exhaustive research to understand the "big picture" -and so some would purposefully NOT understand it -and get the wrong idea...

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

(to be continued.........)

 

[Etritonakin]

(continued from above)
So -It does state that the lake of fire -and torment within it CAN BE -and IS a permanent state for some, but can that potentially permanent state be changed if certain conditions are met?

Essentially, God is saying that he has the power to do this -and that he will do this -to illustrate the utter futility of doing evil to those who will not do good simply because it is the right thing to do -to declare that under no circumstances will evil be allowed into eternity, and that causing others harm is not without severe consequence... which raises questions about how these people being in torment eternally might affect those not being tormented -eternally -if indeed this is the case.

So what could possibly change to avoid this being a permanent state?
1) The one being tormented.
2) God's will to continue tormenting them.

Does what is written allow for either of these? Let's see...
God does not go back on his word, but his word often includes a way to avoid any unpleasant things he has purposed that beings might experience... such as...

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

and...

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him....

God does not WANT to kill anyone -much less torment them. (Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?)
God wants everyone to do the right thing and live forever in happiness. God created us with the ability to refuse to obey him -which is a by-product of giving us true creativity -which requires the ability to make choices. He knew this could lead to some very unfortunate things, but also knew it could be reversed. HOWEVER, because we have a choice we must choose to reverse it in ourselves. The being initially called Lucifer was created within a perfect system. All creatures obeyed God -even him. The potential for disobedience -and so destruction (which is WHY sin is bad -it destroys the perfect system) -was only a choice away. All creatures could have continued to obey God -two thirds of the angels did not rebel - but the potential for disobedience would remain. Only experiencing the misery and destruction disobedience causes -by direct or indirect example -could eventually eradicate the potential for disobedience -but this requires that those who actually DO evil eventually TURN AGAIN -REPENT.
So, Lucifer got it in his head that God was trying to keep him from becoming greater by keeping him from "knowing evil" -and becoming wise. So he disobeyed -and also convinced the third of the angels for which he was responsible to disobey.
They staged a coup -actually tried to dethrone God -but it was put down. These sinning angels -the "demons" -were then restrained, and do only as God allows them. I'm discussing this to illustrate God's mercy. It might be assumed that these demons were 'doomed' or something, but God sent the Word (the being who eventually became Christ) to preach to these angels even after they had sinned...

....but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah...

(Some believe this refers to dead people in purgatory, but it refers to these....
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. This state of restraint is called tartaros -also translated "hell" in the bible [2 Pet 2:4] -but is very different from gehenna -hades and sheol are also translated "hell", but refer to the grave.)

Anyway, God wants them to do rightly, but has them restrained until "the judgment". Still, he actually works with them. He does not instruct them to do wrong, but allows them to do it at times -even to affect mankind -eventually for the good of all. God allowed Job to suffer greatly at the hand of Satan -but few stop to realize it was God who brought up the subject of Job to Satan -which started the whole thing. God was not only trying to teach Job a lesson -but Satan as well...
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job......?

My point is that God's mercy never fails. As long as someone is alive, if they will to obey God, they can -and he will be merciful. He will do everything possible to help them make the right choice -but his longsuffering will not continue indefinitely. We either eventually choose to obey -or be cast into the lake of fire. If we are cast there and then repent -why would he keep us there? It is written that some -the fearful and unbelieving, etc.. will have their PART in the lake of fire. If they are saved -yet so as by fire -so be it. If we are cast there and still do not repent -and have done some seriously dastardly deeds, why would he torment us any longer than it takes to quench his wrath and not simply destroy us so that no one has to think about it any longer? It remains to be seen what WILL happen, because WILL is a factor in all of this, but it WILL happen if we WON'T obey him. If some are simply never going to change, it is possible that they be totally destroyed -but this is God's choice -perhaps he would not destroy one who would not change unless they themselves willed it. (Even if he decreed that some be tormented eterrnally, he may have reserved the right to change that decree. He's God after all -he does not go against his word, but neither would he allow something he might regret to not be able to be undone -assuming he would allow such in the first place.) The fact is that NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED YET -AND, IF WE REPENT, IT NEED NOT HAPPEN AT ALL. Perhaps standing on the edge of the lake of fire will be enough for some -some might not even need that much. At that point it will be certain that both God the lake of fire are quite real -no room for doubt might be enough for some. Some might need a good reality check in the flames -there have been some nasty charcters throughout human history. Some respond to reason and gentle preaching, but some might not respond to anything but such a fiery ultimatum -if they respond at all.

Remember also that there is some all-inclusive and permanent-sounding language on the other side of the issue, such as...

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

It is all true -all real -and all still a choice!

This is by no means a complete answer -I do hope you research it yourself.

As for how the concept got to where it is today -misunderstanding of scripture, errors in understanding being passed on, scripture being confused with various other ideas and works of fiction -people simply making stuff up -and much, much more.

 

[Danny Heim]

My point is that God's mercy never fails. As long as someone is alive, if they will to obey God, they can -and he will be merciful. He will do everything possible to help them make the right choice -but his longsuffering will not continue indefinitely. We either eventually choose to obey -or be cast into the lake of fire. If we are cast there and then repent -why would he keep us there? It is written that some -the fearful and unbelieving, etc.. will have their PART in the lake of fire. If they are saved -yet so as by fire -so be it. If we are cast there and still do not repent -and have done some seriously dastardly deeds, why would he torment us any longer than it takes to quench his wrath and not simply destroy us so that no one has to think about it any longer? It remains to be seen what WILL happen, because WILL is a factor in all of this, but it WILL happen if we WON'T obey him. If some are simply never going to change, it is possible that they be totally destroyed -but this is God's choice -perhaps he would not destroy one who would not change unless they themselves willed it. (Even if he decreed that some be tormented eterrnally, he may have reserved the right to change that decree. He's God after all -he does not go against his word, but neither would he allow something he might regret to not be able to be undone -assuming he would allow such in the first place.) The fact is that NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED YET -AND, IF WE REPENT, IT NEED NOT HAPPEN AT ALL. Perhaps standing on the edge of the lake of fire will be enough for some -some might not even need that much. At that point it will be certain that both God the lake of fire are quite real -no room for doubt might be enough for some. Some might need a good reality check in the flames -there have been some nasty charcters throughout human history. Some respond to reason and gentle preaching, but some might not respond to anything but such a fiery ultimatum -if they respond at all.

I see two choices, bow down or burn, get it? It's called tyranny. There are no IF's in free will.

 

[Etritonakin]

Technically, you are absolutely correct -do it right or be destroyed -but if you truly perceived it correctly you would understand that everything God tells you to do -or else -is for your own good -and that anything else leads to misery and destruction.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Call it what you want. God technically did not give us "free will" -he gave us a choice between life and death. He created us and is responsible for what he allows us to do. If we were created eternal and then allowed to do whatever we wanted forever without regard for the nature of our environment, there would only be misery -and tyrants galore -and all things would end due to the ensuing chaos and anarchy.

What you call tyranny as it relates to God is actually the enforcement of the absence of tyranny. It is God defending those who would be peaceful -and denying those who would be tyrants the opportunity to do so forever.

What you call free will is about to lead to mankind destroying all flesh from the earth -if God did not cut the days short.

No -you can't do anything you want -it just simply would not work. God knows that -even if we do not. There is no reason to not obey God -and those who will be burned are not those who err innocently.

One of the options we are given IS death -so you can opt out of life if you want to -but I hope you don't make that decision based on your current errant assumptions about God or "hell". The following is true -but is in no way bad or tyrannical..... (if you go take a skydiving lesson from someone who knows what they are talking about -you wouldn't call it tyranny -but if you disobeyed them you would splat into the ground -it's the same thing -except that god is not going to wait around idly while everyone splats into the ground -so to speak -and if you're dead set on splatting into the ground and causing others to do so -he'll make it happen sooner rather then later! Why waste time?)...

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see two choices, bow down or burn, get it? It's called tyranny. There are no IF's in free will.

'burn' [fire] in scripture often stands for destruction or annihilation.

Don't the wicked of Psalm 92v7 suffer destruction or annihilation?

Using our free will we are choosing whether we are the figurative sheep or goats of Matthew 25 v32 by how we treat Jesus brothers of verse 40.

God desires no one to perish [be destroyed] but desires all to repent as 2nd Peter 3v9 B says.