Leviticus and Homosexuality

[sojourner]

I am not prepared to give an answer here as I am not very certain that my position is correct. I am inclined to believe what I believe. I don't know the source of this inclination. Perhaps it comes from observing nature, I don't know.

Well, for being one who "isn't very certain," you're certainly more than willing to throw people under the bus of condemnation awfully quickly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps rather than listening to what people say the Bible says, you let the Bible speak for itself.

The Bible has a mouth and talks?

 

[Sonofason]

Then that would reflect your flawed definition of ignorance as well as your conception of what matters and what does not. It matters because knowing more stuff is the criteria from which we judge relative ignorance. If you would like me to grab the definition for you I can do that.

For example, we know that previous religious nonsense, such as those beliefs against homosexuality, are purely out of ignorance for the natural world because all mammalian species participate in homosexual behavior.

Surely, if God did not like homosexuality, as opposed to being indifferent, he wouldn't have made all mammals homosexual.

All of nature is under the curse of Adam. Every animal, and every species is in a fallen state.

 

[sojourner]

Homosexuality is condemned in the New Testament as well. So, it is clear to me at least with regard to this particular subject that God's laws remains in tact.

You suggest that the Bible is true in some places, but not in others. I disagree. I believe the Bible is ALL True, and the Law is intact.

No. Homosexuality isn't condemned in the NT. It's only clear to you, because you've not spent enough time in exegetical study of the texts.

"The Bible is ALL True," is it? I suppose you think that the sky is a rigid dome, covering a disc-shaped earth, upon which the heavenly bodies are fixed, and the whole dome rotates around the disc? I suppose you think that light comes from someplace other than the sun? Because the bible states both these things and is patently, scientifically WRONG on those points.

 

[sojourner]

It is as if you are saying that because Jesus lived, everyone will be saved. I do not believe that is the case.

Sucks for you.

Jesus isn't saving everyone.

Of course Jesus is saving everyone.

 

[sojourner]

Well, I read my Bible of course, and I believe it.

Obviously, you haven't read it in enough depth.

 

[sojourner]

On what basis do you believe you have greater knowledge about the human psyche than the writer of Leviticus, or even perhaps God?

I don't believe that -- and I never said that. However, what I DID say was that our experts in the human psyche (that is, psychiatric experts) know a lot more about the human psyche than the writer of Leviticus did.

 

[Sonofason]

Maybe I need a sig line stating "I have read the Bible. That's why I believe it is mostly fiction"

You believe what you think it says, Sojourner believes something else, St Frank believes something else again, etc etc.

But I have read it for myself and what God told me while I read It was "Don't take religionists too seriously. They don't know anything you don't know."

Tom

Actually, the fact that you have read the Bible is in no way the cause as to why you believe it is mostly fiction. The reason you believe it is fiction is because you have been convinced by others that it is fiction. In no way did you reason your position out on your own, not in a million years.

 

[sojourner]

Lives are often destroyed by persons who only "party once in a while".

Don't be melodramatic.

Considering white as being the color associated with being in perfect harmony with God, and black as being completely and utterly disassociated with God, why would you desire to allow for shades of grey?

Because, even within the scope of Torah Law, there is much grey area, evidenced by the practice of the Jews who have always relied -- not simply upon the texts, but also upon the commentaries, corollaries, and other extra-biblical teachings on the texts in order to interpret the laws and their application.

Homosexual desires are sinful.

No. they're not.

Homosexual acts are sin.

Within the bounds of committed relationships, they're not.

And so I cannot condone either for the sake of greater "connectedness" with the world around me. Such connectedness serves me no purpose.

Neither does your admitted baseless condemnation of them serve the purposes of the rest of us.

 

[sojourner]

Shades of gray

It's a pretty important shade to pay attention to.

 

[AlphaAlex115]

The local vicar told me that homosexuals go straight to hell... im unsure what do you guys think

 

[columbus]

All of nature is under the curse of Adam. Every animal, and every species is in a fallen state.

I'm so glad you can't give any reason for me to believe you know more about God and Heaven and such than I do. If you could I'd be worried.

Tom

 

[Sonofason]

You don't need to "bring my attention" to any biblical texts. I've spent the last few years studying them professionally.

Homosexuality need not be "admitted" as a sin, since it isn't a sin. The texts don't mention homosexuality At. All. These people simply believe the data provided by our psychiatric experts, who assert that homosexuality is a normal and healthy sexual orientation.

I don't think "God causes" people to be homosexual. I simply think that's the way human nature is.

People who are not homosexuals do not engage in homosexual conduct. Those who do engage in homosexual conduct are homosexuals. These two words are directly linked.

The texts do define the conduct that we now call homosexual conduct. Without homosexuals, there could be no homosexuality.

 

[columbus]

The local vicar told me that homosexuals go straight to hell... im unsure what do you guys think

I think you just discovered that Jesus wasn't born 20000 years ago.

Tom

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps your perspective of God has shifted, but mine has not. Perhaps you have changed your perspective towards God, because you'd like God to fit into your world view. But you cannot say that mine has shifted. You are assuming too much here.

I personally am not against the idea of slavery. I am of course against stealing people from their homelands and turning them in to slaves that ought to be beaten for lack of performance. But slavery is indeed a good means of relinquishing debt, so long as the principles of God are adhered to. But if you are to be a slave, then by all means, you should be a good slave.

Actually, it was not Israel that Jesus came for, it was the lost sheep of Israel that He came for.

I have certainly not discounted the truth that the heavens and the earth were created in six literal days. After all, by definition, a day literally means, "a time of light", not necessarily a 24 hour time period as you are supposing.

Can you tell me what the Big Bang emitted? Let me tell you, it was light.

God said, Let there be light. And by God, there was light.

Your perspective of God is far, far different than that of ancient Mesopotamians.
It's you who are making too many assumptions.

Anyone who would condemn homosexuality without good reason, and yet condone slavery -- the buying, selling, and owning of human beings deserves no more of my time. Either you're lying in order to provoke a reaction, or else your views are warped beyond the bounds of healthy social interaction.

And BTW, "Day" is defined as sunset to sunrise. On earth, that has always been a 24 hour period.

The big bang produced more than light.

 

[sojourner]

Honestly, I wish you would use your pronouns properly. Please stop including me in your conclusions about what you have concluded.

You needn't flatter yourself. I was only including those who espouse good scholarship.

 

[sojourner]

But to believe that God inspired every word of the text is not patently absurd.

Yes. It is absurd.

 

[Sonofason]

Well, for being one who "isn't very certain," you're certainly more than willing to throw people under the bus of condemnation awfully quickly.

Those who do not abide in Christ are condemned already. I have nothing to do with anyone's condemnation.

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps rather than listening to what people say the Bible says, you let the Bible speak for itself.

Do you read the texts in Hebrew and Greek? If not, then you're listening to what people say the bible says. Do you read the canonized texts? If so, you're reading what someone else says the bible says.

 

[AlphaAlex115]

I think you just discovered that Jesus wasn't born 20000 years ago.

Tom

That actually made my day. But im being serious xd