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"Liberal Christian" is an oxymoron!

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Here's a meditation of mine...

Questions to keep in mind when approaching theology:

Is there a difference between a small misunderstanding about God and a huge misunderstanding about God?

What does God's love, grace, and beneficence mean and how far does it extend? Are there limits, and if so, what are they?


Yes, there are limits that MAN puts on God's grace. If we continue to deny His truths, He allows us to reject His grace.

Also, apparently at some point, God "gives us over to a reprobate mind."

Romans 1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Titus 1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
If you think there are no contradictions in the Bible check out:
www.theskepticalreview.com It is produced by Farrell Till, a former Church of Christ preacher that exposes contradictions in the bible and welcomes articles by those who try to refute claims of contradictions in the Bible. Liberal Christianity is NOT an oxymoron unless the story of Jesus in the Gospels is literally true and the whole Bible is literally the word of a god. I think all religions are human made so all religions can have a literalist or nonliteralist interpretation.


No offense, but I've studied the so called contradictions in the bible repeatedly over the past 35 years. I have found there to be such a small percentage of the Bible that is actually questionable, that I will give that small sliver the benefit of the doubt - considering the vast amount of scripture that is so reliable.

It's truly a remarkable collection of writings.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
"Also, apparently at some point, God "gives us over to a reprobate mind."

Two cheers for "reprobate!":yes:

(Whatever that is.:confused:)
 

keithnurse

Active Member
No offense, but I've studied the so called contradictions in the bible repeatedly over the past 35 years. I have found there to be such a small percentage of the Bible that is actually questionable, that I will give that small sliver the benefit of the doubt - considering the vast amount of scripture that is so reliable.

It's truly a remarkable collection of writings.
I'm not offended, thanks. I will check to see if there are other threads with debates on specific Bible contradictions. What I have found in discussing contradictions with Christians is that they just state a "how-it-could-have-been scenario to resolve the contradiction and then leave it at that without even checking to see if that scenario is in fact what happened. That is not intellectually respectable to me.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm not offended, thanks. I will check to see if there are other threads with debates on specific Bible contradictions. What I have found in discussing contradictions with Christians is that they just state a "how-it-could-have-been scenario to resolve the contradiction and then leave it at that without even checking to see if that scenario is in fact what happened. That is not intellectually respectable to me.


Well, that's irritating and I can see why you wouldn't appreciate it. I don't operate that way. Many Christians take this sort of study very seriously.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Need? no.

Gnostic "commentary" is something I enjoy when it comes my way though.;)
Exegetical commentary is not particularly "gnostic." "Gnostic" is a theological position. Exegesis seeks to separate itself from theology.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Eventually I got so FREIKIN' SICK of people arrogantly telling me my
"non church (building)" gOd IN-SPIRED christianity was NOT christianity...
I said fine. Who the hell needs this lousy label anyway.

You and your kind ALWAYS KNOW EVERYTHING, don't you.
Psshhh! Gate keepers. go figure. Always more concerned with the mote in your eye than they are with the log in their own...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If you want to see how many types of "Christians" there are, check out churches in the yellow pages of any large city.
Insinuating that we should all be exactly the same???
Don't kid yourself. We were never all the same.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Spong, IMO, has abandoned Christianity. Thinking in different ways? That is not in and of itself profound. The man teaches that theism is dead and saps the whole mystery from the Christian religion in favor of a secular humanism packaged in Christian pictures.
I disagree. True, he's "out there," but he is a bishop, and he does profess to believe in Christ. Whatever his take or world view, he is a Christian, who challenges us to test our models and expand our awareness. While I do disagree with him, I also find him a refreshing change from the mindless, "Join us...be one of us..." mentality so prevalent in Imperial Xy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No offense, but I've studied the so called contradictions in the bible repeatedly over the past 35 years. I have found there to be such a small percentage of the Bible that is actually questionable, that I will give that small sliver the benefit of the doubt - considering the vast amount of scripture that is so reliable.

It's truly a remarkable collection of writings.
No offense, but read it again. There are a remarkable number of blatant contradictions, especially in terms of historic fact.

It's also true that many theological concepts and statements, taken out of context, may appear to contradict one another, but, when placed properly in context, can be reconciled.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
No offense, but I've studied the so called contradictions in the bible repeatedly over the past 35 years. I have found there to be such a small percentage of the Bible that is actually questionable, that I will give that small sliver the benefit of the doubt - considering the vast amount of scripture that is so reliable.

It's truly a remarkable collection of writings.

We must be reading two entirely different things, what version are you reading?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't stick to one particular version - when I study a passage of scripture I usually look at 4-8 versions and research the original language as well.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I have read various lists of contradictions from the Bible, and, to be honest, I did not see the contradictions. I just didn't see what others see as contradictions.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have read various lists of contradictions from the Bible, and, to be honest, I did not see the contradictions. I just didn't see what others see as contradictions.
Take, for example, the differences in Jesus' geneology. There are also the two differing creation stories. And there are several cases of the same event being reported with different historical facts. Those are contradictions that must either 1) be acknowledged as contradictions and left as such, or 2) resolved through scholarship and understanding.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Exactly - that's why I have easily resolved both those issues through scholarship and understanding. Neither of those so called contradictions holds a bit of water.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I'm curious. How did you resolve Jesus's geneology through scholarship and understanding? And how did it become a non-contradiction?
 

allanpopa

Member
The idea that the Christian Bible is free of error is a supersessionist imperial claim which 1. is insulting to other religious expressions, particularly Judaism and 2. entirely unsubstantiated.

Because 1. is easy enough to see: everyone can see how when one person claims that a particular cultural belief is objective and absolute then everyone else alive who believes differently, becomes wrong, and all other cultural expressions of religion become "mythology" in the very derogatory sense of the word; I will concentrate on 2.

Firstly, which Christian Bible? There's never ever been one single Christian Bible which has been accepted as normative to every single Christian person alive. The Old Testament(s) of Christianity were themselves being shaped at the same time as the New Testament(s) in the first few centuries of the Common Era (CE) and it was also in that same period that the Tanakh of Judaism was likewise achieving its final form. At the time of Jesus there was neither Tanakh nor Old Testament only scriptures in which an authority and priority was accorded to the books of Moses or Torah. The Torah was a Pentateuch, although at Qumran the Temple Scroll represented a 6th book of Moses, meaning for some Jews in Jesus' day the Torah was a Hexateuch. Not only were the Tanakh and the Old and New Testaments shaped contemporaneously but also to a certain extent in reaction to each other. Christians regard Daniel as a prophet and in many ancient collections/lists Daniel is the last book of both the Prophets and the Old Testament as it is in my contemporary Orthodox Study Bible. In the Tanakh, though, Daniel is not a prophet and the book is included in the third division, the Writings. Given how important Daniel was for Christian messianic theologies, it's hard not to think that its placement in the Tanakh amongst the Writings is designed to downplay it and the apocalyptic theologies it represented. The ordering of the Tanakh, furthermore, gives priority to the Torah - all the other books of Prophets and Writings being understood as commentary on Torah. Christian Old Testaments look forward to the New and hence the Prophets are generally the final Old Testament division, heralding the Christ event.

The New Testament of today is not and has never been the only canonical New Testament structure. It took a long time for the Eastern churches to accept Revelation. It is still not part of the New Testament of the Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox) and while it might be part of the Greek Orthodox bible there are no readings from it included in the lectionary of the Greek Orthodox church. Furthermore, the Ethiopian Bible includes a number of additional books in its New Testament, which are placed after Revelation. In the first millennium, there were also several different orderings of the New Testament. A quite common pattern was gospels, epistles, Acts and Revelation. The Cheltenham canon, hailing from North Africa, has the ordering: gospels, Pauline epistles, Acts, Revelation, Johannine and Petrine epistles. The Apostolic canons give this ordering for the New Testament:
Our own books, that is, those of the New Testament, are: the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; on of James, and one of Jude. Two Epistles of Clement and the Constitutions of me Clement, addressed to you Bishops, in eight books, which are not to be published to all on account of the mystical things in them. And the Acts of the Apostles.
No sign of Revelation but ending with Acts. According to the Muratorian Fragment, which probably belongs in the fourth century, the New Testament structure is as follows: gospels, Johannine epistles, Acts, Paul's epistles, Jude, 2 epistles of John, Wisdom of Solomon, Revelation and Apocalypse of Peter. Indeed a number of ancient New Testament lists include either Wisdom of Solomon and/or Sirach. A list included in the 6th century Codex Claromontanus renders the New Testament thus - gospels, Pauline epistles, Petrine epistles, James, Johannine epsitles, Jude, Barnabas, Revelation, Acts and then Shepherd of Hermas, Acts of Paul, to conclude with Apocalypse of Peter. Finally the New Testament according to the Codex Sinaiticus is ordered as follows: gospels, Pauline epistles, Acts, James, Petrine epistles, Johannine epsitles, Jude, Revelation, Barnabas to conclude with Shepherd of Hermas.

So there's a first initial question of: "What is canonical?" and this question has never been laid to rest, it's simply been ignored by the majority of Christians over the centuries. Another problem that arises in claiming that a particular collection of books is "inerrant" is that there is never a fixed meaning in interpreting any sort of literature (and I largely see Christian fundamentalists shying away -if not ignoring- the Wirkungsgeschichte of these books), this means that we don't really have much of an idea about what these books meant in their reception and how much, if at all, that differed from the authors meaning. Inerrancy becomes a void issue straight away. Remember that there is no such a thing as meaning without contex, so why maintain the inerrancy of Scripture if the reception context changes all the time? For instance, I hear about fundamentalist Chrsitians reading Scripture in search of hope when they are facing hard times financially, and they stumble accross Matthew 6:25-34 and feel better. Now, shall we comment on the issue from a hermeneutical perspective? Was Matthew 6 (or any of Matthew) written to said Christian? Could not Jesus have meant something very different in this passage? A cultural critique parallel to Cynic philosophy, perhaps? That's certainly possible. The point is that what is most certain is that Jesus was not looking down through time here and speaking to that single Christian in order that said Christian feels better about their current predicament. For all purposes, that Christian simply picked up a piece of text and read it into their own context, (a flawed context -something that we all acknowledge-). If Scripture is inerrant then it's inerrant purposelessly.

Let's continue, what is the purpose of inerrancy? If it is in order for Christians to hold secure beliefs in their religious writings then why use the term "inerrancy", when a more profound and accurate term like "identity" is much better? The Scripture is the Identity of Christ and the Identity of Christians, we can read it collectively and see a continuity in the faith shared by our fathers and mothers. It makes much more sense to me. But let's ask these difficult questions; why, for instance, would an all powerful God inspire a book and make it superfluously inerrant? Doesn't that shake the economy of God's power and grace? Scripture is going to be given in the hands of a corrupt mind and people are going to read it and use it for their own purposes in order to Imperialize their faith, in order to oppress minorities, in order to murder, kill and pillage, why give these people a document which is perfect if its meaning is ambiguous enough for people to be able to use it for such destructive purposes? Augustine most certainly got around this problem by subordinating Scripture to Love:
Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbor, does not yet understand them as he ought. (De Doctrina Christiana 36).
And I would tend to agree with this more historical expression of Christian faith, I would subordinate errant Scripture to inerrant love.

In this short response to the most recent replies, I've attempted to show the baselessness of belief in inerrancy. In the wider context of the thread name, I would give a brief anecdote:

"Liberal Christianity" may be an oxymoron in the sense that there are many liberal Christians (like the late Robert Funk and the contemporary Spong) who see their faith as a supersessionist imperial castle of truth which all cultures must accept as truth, thus destroying the possibility of the Other. It may also be an oxymoron in the sense that many liberal Christians (like Robert Funk and John Spong) attempt to de-religiousify Christianity and offer only a very Buddhist (without the hard work) airy-fairy hippy living in the first century as an historical Jesus. Yes, these are areas of interest about some expressions of "liberal Christianity", however they are not the only expressions of contemporary scholarly Christianity. Also, these are also two areas in which contemporary fundamentalist Christians also fall under suspision. I have never heard of a fundamentalist Protestant who does not see their faith as the only possible way of being human or any contemporary fundamentalist Protestant Christian who does not see more liturgical, ritualistic, traditional (historical) expressions of faith as superfluous at best or demonic at worst. So some forms of "liberal Christianity" and all(?) forms of fundamentalist Christian expressions of faith are oxymoronic.

Allan
 
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