Library Idiocy

[paradox]

@PureX
Let's conclude that these people had the right to draw they money from funding the library, it's their cash and they do with their cash however they whish.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@PureX
Let's conclude that these people had the right to draw they money from funding the library, it's their cash and they do with their cash however they whish.

No, the city was not taxing appropriately. And if that city uses a general fund they can still keep the library opened if they want to. Most cities do not have targeted funds. That is not the right way to fund critical services. Let's say that they had a fund for the fire department that was based upon votes. Most of us never need the fire department, at least for fires. We might as well vote that part of their services out of existence. But those that run a city know the risk of an unmoderated fire. One fire can easily spread. Their are times that the majority do not have a right to say where funds go. This appears to be one such case.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

For your information Sigmund Freud is the founding father of conversion therapy,

For your information Freud has very heavily and widely fallen out of favor and most of his ideas have been discarded.

1960's there have been several other conversion therapy studies so far:
What We Know | What does the scholarly research say about whether conversion therapy can alter sexual orientation without causing harm? | What We Know (cornell.edu)

Those of us who don't live and the past and understand the necessity of using current sources know better.
The Case Against Conversion “Therapy”: Evidence, Ethics, and Alternatives

Many LGBTQ youth are still forced into harmful “treatments” with devastating mental health consequences. This volume explores the history, effects, and danger of so-called conversion therapy.

Because conversion “therapy” is not actually therapeutic, it is now more accurately referred to as sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) or gender identity change efforts (GICE).
...
Over the last four decades, considerable research has shown SOCE to be not only ineffective, but harmful. As a result of these findings, professional organizations such as the American Psychological Association (APA) have denounced the practice and recommended affirmative, supportive treatment instead.

What Is LGBTQ+ Conversion Therapy?

Gender or sexual identity “conversion therapy” centers around the false belief that being anything other than cisgender and straight is wrong, and that it must be fixed with outside intervention.

Conversion therapies are associated with damaging mental health outcomes in LGBTQIA+ people. They’re widely debunked as having no basis in science and for refusing to acknowledge the full spectrum of human gender and sexuality.

Some of these programs might be hard to spot for what they truly are. They go by different names, including “reparative therapy,” and can incorporate verbal, physical, and sexual abuse as well as medications and even forced surgery.

People who have survived conversion therapy may experience shame, anger, anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. They may be forced to hide their gender or sexual identity, feel unsafe in their community, and lose hope of a happy future.

Conversion Therapy
Variations in sexual orientation and gender expression represent normal and expectable dimensions of human development. They are not considered to be pathological; therefore, they are not included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, and other accepted nosological systems (1).
...

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry finds no evidence to support the application of any “therapeutic intervention” operating under the premise that a specific sexual orientation, gender identity, and/or gender expression is pathological. Furthermore, based on the scientific evidence, the AACAP asserts that such “conversion therapies” (or other interventions imposed with the intent of promoting a particular sexual orientation and/or gender as a preferred outcome) lack scientific credibility and clinical utility. Additionally, there is evidence that such interventions are harmful. As a result, “conversion therapies” should not be part of any behavioral health treatment of children and adolescents.

Why Gay Conversion Therapy Is Harmful

"The overwhelming scientific evidence demonstrates that conversion therapy, especially when it is practiced on young people, is neither medically nor ethically appropriate and can cause substantial harm," Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser to President Barack Obama, said in a statement.

Gay conversion therapy — which its supporters claim can change the orientation of gay, lesbian and transgender people — has a long track record of not working, according to a review of the scientific literature published by the American Psychological Association (APA).

What's more, research suggests the treatment can worsen feelings of self-hatred and anxiety, because it encourages people to fight or hate a sexual orientation that can't be changed.

he was the first to come up with solutions that show positive results of 25%,

That's basically a failure if it only works for a few. If that's the case it's more likely a placebo effect than anything from the procedure.

Therefore in regards to Freud's method which you call "garbage" there is so far only one which is better while also not causing harm, proving that Freud was a genius for his times,

Freud's crap is largely and mostly worse than garbage. Seriously. Do you want to have sex with one of your parents? Probably, like most people, that is a firm no.
Why Freud Still Matters, When He Was Wrong About Almost Everything

Freud has, for the most part, fallen completely out of favor in academia. Virtually no institution in any discipline would dare use him as a credible source. In 1996, Psychological Science reached the conclusion that “[T]here is literally nothing to be said, scientifically or therapeutically, to the advantage of the entire Freudian system or any of its component dogmas." As a research paradigm, it’s pretty much dead.

Many of Freud’s methodologies, techniques, and conclusions have been put into question. Moreover, his theories have even proved damaging — and even dangerous — to certain segments of the population. His perspectives on female sexuality and homosexuality are reviled, causing many feminists to refer to him by a different kind of ‘F’ word. Some even argue that his name should be spelled “Fraud” and not Freud.

I find it not informative at all, in comparison to psychologydictionary.org the information is very lacking.

Lacking in what? Junk "science" and bigotry? Seriously, what I looked at was just wrong and it was not easy to find many things. It's such a terrible source that it doesn't even have a complete alphabet when browsing subjects and topics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@PureX
Let's conclude that these people had the right to draw they money from funding the library, it's their cash and they do with their cash however they whish.

It's a public building. It belongs to no one and everyone. That means it is bound to various legal rules, and also Libraries themselves having their own (non binding) Bill of Rights.
Library Bill of Rights

I. Books and other library resources should be provided for the interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin, background, or views of those contributing to their creation.

II. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.

III. Libraries should challenge censorship in the fulfillment of their responsibility to provide information and enlightenment.

IV. Libraries should cooperate with all persons and groups concerned with resisting abridgment of free expression and free access to ideas.

V. A person’s right to use a library should not be denied or abridged because of origin, age, background, or views.

VI. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups requesting their use.

VII. All people, regardless of origin, age, background, or views, possess a right to privacy and confidentiality in their library use. Libraries should advocate for, educate about, and protect people’s privacy, safeguarding all library use data, including personally identifiable information.

Two and Three are against this nonsense of censorship in libraries and thinking the community should be able to keep library shelves censored to their own whims.
But American Conservative Evangelicals don't believe in free distribution of information, they don't accept freedom for others when it offends their own personal sensibilities, and they totally interpreted "be not of this world" as "force your ways onto the world."

 

[fantome profane]

No book ever harmed a child that didn't read it.

Well, unless the book falls off a high shelf and hits the kid in the head. War and Peace could kill a child.

But I still think it is worth the risk.


And maybe that is not what you meant.

 

[paradox]

For your information Freud has very heavily and widely fallen out of favor and most of his ideas have been discarded.

Those of us who don't live and the past and understand the necessity of using current sources know better.
The Case Against Conversion “Therapy”: Evidence, Ethics, and Alternatives

What Is LGBTQ+ Conversion Therapy?

Conversion Therapy
Variations in sexual orientation and gender expression represent normal and expectable dimensions of human development. They are not considered to be pathological; therefore, they are not included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, and other accepted nosological systems (1).
...

Why Gay Conversion Therapy Is Harmful



That's basically a failure if it only works for a few. If that's the case it's more likely a placebo effect than anything from the procedure.

Freud's crap is largely and mostly worse than garbage. Seriously. Do you want to have sex with one of your parents? Probably, like most people, that is a firm no.
Why Freud Still Matters, When He Was Wrong About Almost Everything


Lacking in what? Junk "science" and bigotry? Seriously, what I looked at was just wrong and it was not easy to find many things. It's such a terrible source that it doesn't even have a complete alphabet when browsing subjects and topics.

That is a lot to study for sure, and to me all this looks like APA is significantly affected by politics rather than profession but then also it's interesting how governmental site did not ban conversion therapy which is known to work with 65% success rate, this seems contradictory to what you're saying, obviously sources can be found which go in both favors.

Do you think there should be scientific efforts to continue research or it would be better to just say that homosexuality is not mental condition and end of story?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is a lot to study for sure, and to me all this looks like APA is significantly affected by politics rather than profession

And yet you offer no supporting evidence.

interesting how governmental site did not ban conversion therapy which is known to work with 65% success rate,

Bull!
35.1% of the participants continued to view their orientation in this manner. <---That is the exact number given by the article.
This doesn't account for bisexuality or the immense pressure to confirm and fear of punishment and failure the church is known for instilling in people.

Do you think there should be scientific efforts to continue research or it would be better to just say that homosexuality is not mental condition and end of story?

There is no reason to study it in that light because it's not a mental condition. That idea was discarded decades ago. This is why we keep up with science, because using butter on a burn is not really a good idea after all.

 

[paradox]

There is no reason to study it in that light because it's not a mental condition. That idea was discarded decades ago.

Then pedophilia, sadism and the rest of sexual deviations should be removed from DSM simply because there is no 100% effective cure don't you think? that's quite logical.

 

[muichimotsu]

None of that has anything to do with what I said.

No one is obligated to give you money.

And no one said that, this is about investing into society at large for long term improvements. There is an implied obligation to society, not to individuals, which is distinct because the latter applies specifically, the former is broad and is about general welfare rather than preferential treatment.

If we make this purely voluntary, then it enables outright sociopathy, performative charity under the guise of being magnanimous, but essentially just feeding people's greed, hoarding more money than they'd ever spend in a lifetime and wasting it just to gloat to those under them

 

[muichimotsu]

I knew there was more to the story. With media it always is.

Just another nothingburger sensationalized.

Point remains that this is a reflection of the tactics fascists use, starting at the local level to enforce control over education, because fascists are threatened by a more educated and diverse populace

 

[Mister Emu]

There is an implied obligation to society, not to individuals

Nonsense, obligations to society are necessarily passed on to individuals. Society does not have existence as a separate entity that can have obligations outside the collective of individuals which forms it.

If we make this purely voluntary, then it enables outright sociopathy, performative charity

Which at least is a form of charity.

Even if we decide it is the appropriate plan of action, spending other people's money does not make you moral.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then pedophilia, sadism and the rest of sexual deviations should be removed from DSM simply because there is no 100% effective cure don't you think? that's quite logical.

No, it's not logical because homosexuality isn't a sexual deviation. Nor is sadism when it's consensual. Pedophilia, that is without consent and damaging.

 

[fantome profane]

Then pedophilia, sadism and the rest of sexual deviations should be removed from DSM simply because there is no 100% effective cure don't you think? that's quite logical.

What about heterosexuality? Do you think there is an effective treatment for that condition? Should we fund research into finding a cure?

 

[muichimotsu]

Nonsense, obligations to society are necessarily passed on to individuals. Society does not have existence as a separate entity that can have obligations outside the collective of individuals which forms it.


Which at least is a form of charity.

Even if we decide it is the appropriate plan of action, spending other people's money does not make you moral.

Never said society was its own entity, but individuals don't exist in a vacuum either, their selfishness does not benefit society or themselves long term, it's a grasshopper being a hedonist and not preparing for winter

Do you...not realize performative is not a compliment? If you just do charity out of obligation to society, that's not praiseworthy and I didn't advocate such a thing. If we actually have genuine empathy and not faux sympathy, we might realize that such things like charity, especially from those who have excessive wealth, are not some pressure, they necessarily benefit everyone long term.

And spending the money given to you in a practical way is what is praiseworthy, no one was talking about morality here but you who insinuated it into the conversation as if that was ever what was at debate versus being a conscientious citizen that recognizes when someone is being a populist that advocates for mob mentality versus any measure of rational coexistence and a free market of ideas

 

[Mister Emu]

Never said society was its own entity

No, you said that society's obligations are not individual obligations. Which is absurd.

no one was talking about morality here but you who insinuated it into the conversation

"Sociopathic", "performative", "greed", and "gloat" are not morally neutral terms.

 

[muichimotsu]

No, you said that society's obligations are not individual obligations. Which is absurd.


"Sociopathic", "performative", "greed", and "gloat" are not morally neutral terms.

Individuals have an obligation to society, pretty sure we can agree on that. Societal function is a community effort as well, there's not a contradiction here, nor does it mean just the community or just individual matter

Sociopathic is a descriptor of mental state, it's not stating they cannot be moral (pretty sure they can, morality can be achieved without empathy, albeit in a purely utilitarian sense at best), but now you're quibbling over language you think must mean I'm making a moral assessment of someone's actions rather than noting the superficial and hypocritical nature of those who claim to be moral, but are opportunistic and often care more about maintaining their power dynamic in society rather than acknowledge change should happen even if it means they must make some sacrifice

 

[paradox]

No, it's not logical because homosexuality isn't a sexual deviation.

What is sexual deviation?

any sexual behaviour regarded as abnormal by society. The deviation may relate to the sexual object (as in fetishism) or the activity engaged in (for example, sadism and exhibitionism).

Sexual deviation - Oxford Reference

APA calls this "sexual deviance"

any sexual behavior, such as a paraphilia, that is regarded as significantly different from the standards established by a culture or subculture.
Deviant forms of sexual behavior may include voyeurism, fetishism, bestiality, necrophilia, transvestism, sadism, and exhibitionism. Also called sexual deviation.

APA Dictionary of Psychology

however APA obviously doesn't list homosexuality which is self-contradictory to their own definition,
but we all know why, because APA was influenced by politics and protests rather than by profession.

What about heterosexuality? Do you think there is an effective treatment for that condition?

heterosexuality does not qualify as sexual deviation and is thus not in need for treatment.

~~~~~~~~~

I must admit that I'm exhausted by this debate, what remains is fair judgement instead of personal opinions.

 

[PureX]

@PureX
Let's conclude that these people had the right to draw they money from funding the library, it's their cash and they do with their cash however they whish.

Well, that's not true at all. One of the main purposes of government is to collect money to be applied to projects that benefit society as a whole, even though some taxpayers would not choose to pay for it because they will not use it, themselves. Public education and public libraries benefit society as whole whether you personally use them or not.

 

[paradox]

One of the main purposes of government is to collect money to be applied to projects that benefit society as a whole, even though some taxpayers would not choose to pay for it because they will not use it, themselves. Public education and public libraries benefit society as whole whether you personally use them or not.

But the fact is that the government you speak of allows people to vote, and that' what they did.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

What is sexual deviation?

Sexual deviation - Oxford Reference

APA calls this "sexual deviance"

APA Dictionary of Psychology

however APA obviously doesn't list homosexuality which is self-contradictory to their own definition,
but we all know why, because APA was influenced by politics and protests rather than by profession.


heterosexuality does not qualify as sexual deviation and is thus not in need for treatment.

~~~~~~~~~

I must admit that I'm exhausted by this debate, what remains is fair judgement instead of personal opinions.

As per the DSM, a sexual desire doesn't become a paraphilia until it cause harm to others or self. The diagnosis is specific, and needs to take into account a host of individua elements.

For instance, I may love being whipped, which, while occasionally causes harm, doesn't become a paraphila until it impacts my daily life to such an extent I require intervention.

Homosexuals generally only experience harm from other people's reaction to their sexuality. That isn't a paraphilia.