Life Begins at Conception

[lockyfan]

And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.
Exodus 21:22-25

So it says that if something were to happen to either mother or chiold thats how i read it, bth are a life to God, the death is the punishment.

 

[McBell]

So it says that if something were to happen to either mother or chiold thats how i read it, bth are a life to God, the death is the punishment.

Prime example of Gods advocation of capital punishment.

But that is a topic for a different thread.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So it says that if something were to happen to either mother or chiold thats how i read it, bth are a life to God, the death is the punishment.

You're using circular reasoning. You're assuming that the passage considers a miscarriage to be a death in order to interpret the passage as saying that a fetus is a living person.

And what Bible version is the one you're using? I can't figure out which one it is; it doesn't match any of the ones on Bible Gateway that I checked.

Anyhow, here are a few others:

NIV:

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

e. Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage

Young's Literal Translation:

And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;

KJV:

22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Holman Christian Standard Bible:

22 "When men get in a fight, and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born [prematurely], [m] but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands (K) from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment.

m. Exodus 21:22 Either a live birth or a miscarriage

All of them either use neutral language that doesn't indicate whether the baby is alive or dead, or explicitly state in the footnotes that either a live birth or a miscarriage would fit the meaning of the terms used.

 

[YmirGF]

I believe that "life" begins at the point of physical birth. Anything prior to that may not actually survive and is therefore moot. I think it also sets a terrible legal precedent to ascribe rights to the unborn by removing too much control from women over their own body in favor of the unborn.

 

[DarkSun]

I believe that "life" begins at the point of physical birth. Anything prior to that may not actually survive and is therefore moot. I think it also sets a terrible legal precedent to ascribe rights to the unborn by removing too much control from women over their own body in favor of the unborn.

A child can actually grow and survive before week 39, when it is expected to be born.

And personally, I don't see much difference in killing a newborn and "aborting" a 36 week old fetus. Both are arguably just as aware of themselves.

But, I've explained my view on this thread already, and I'd rather not start up a debate again, so....

 

[Madhuri]

I believe that "life" begins at the point of physical birth. Anything prior to that may not actually survive and is therefore moot. I think it also sets a terrible legal precedent to ascribe rights to the unborn by removing too much control from women over their own body in favor of the unborn.

Eh, the baby wouldn't survive without help even after it is born. A foetus is an underdeveloped human being. It would not grow or function if it were not 'alive'. Even within the womb, at an early stage, it is aware through basic senses such as sound and touch. So even in its helpless state, it is very much alive.

I don't think that an argument established on the idea that the baby would not be able to survive independently is either strong or valid. Being helpless should not decrease the value of your life.

 

[lockyfan]

Exodus 21:23 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul

it is not specific as to whether it be the mother or the child a fatal accident accurs




Also there is no difference between a child aborted within Twelve weeks of conception or 1 minutes of it being born

Is it also not said that women call it a "life growing inside them"? Well then is that not al ife? Is a fetus just a thing that hovers there? No

Once created, it is a life growing there the fetus is a LIFE

 

[darkendless]

Exodus 21:23 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul

it is not specific as to whether it be the mother or the child a fatal accident accurs




Also there is no difference between a child aborted within Twelve weeks of conception or 1 minutes of it being born

Is it also not said that women call it a "life growing inside them"? Well then is that not al ife? Is a fetus just a thing that hovers there? No

Once created, it is a life growing there the fetus is a LIFE

Then don't abort your children.

But don't use biblical garbage to cloud your mind against the necessity some people face.

What happens when an unaborted child is born and cannot be sustained by its parents? Thats child abuse. Why would God want the child to be neglected and possibly live an awful life than be prevented from causing suffering to parents and child alike?

 

[lockyfan]

then adopt. Dont kill an innocent life just because you haven been able to use birth control effectively.

Why make it suffer for your misjudgement

 

[darkendless]

then adopt. Dont kill an innocent life just because you haven been able to use birth control effectively.

Why make it suffer for your misjudgement

Things happen in life beyond our control. A girl i used to work with destroyed a promising career because she fell pregnant and kept it.

Also, innocent people die every day because there are too many people on earth. How do you reconcile such a thing?

 

[lockyfan]

Ecc 9:11 I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.

but again it was her choices that got her pregnant and keep the baby.


If she were living a Godly way of life, she would never have fallen pregnant until she was married and ready for children.

She also chose to keep the baby, but could have adopted the baby out. She didnt. You mke it something bad that me saying abortion is wrong in that instance, well like i said, she does not have to keep the baby afterwards, a person can adopt the baby out.

Why kill an innocent child?

 

[darkendless]

Ecc 9:11 I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.

but again it was her choices that got her pregnant and keep the baby.


If she were living a Godly way of life, she would never have fallen pregnant until she was married and ready for children.

She also chose to keep the baby, but could have adopted the baby out. She didnt. You mke it something bad that me saying abortion is wrong in that instance, well like i said, she does not have to keep the baby afterwards, a person can adopt the baby out.

Why kill an innocent child?

God lets millions of innocent children die every year from starvation and suffering.

She chose to because of religious beliefs that ruined her career. She nows works far too hard to be healthy to support her child. From experience within my family, adoption is not a good method. My aunty adopted 2 children and both have gone off the rails.

How does killing an undeveloped foetus rate to killing a living breathing child. A feotus is not a child, it cannot breathe or function properly. Wouldn't having sex and not conceiving be murder to you, because you're slaughtering billions of potential children? Where do you draw the line champ?

 

[lockyfan]

God lets millions of innocent children die every year from starvation and suffering.

She chose to because of religious beliefs that ruined her career. She nows works far too hard to be healthy to support her child. From experience within my family, adoption is not a good method. My aunty adopted 2 children and both have gone off the rails.

How does killing an undeveloped foetus rate to killing a living breathing child. A feotus is not a child, it cannot breathe or function properly. Wouldn't having sex and not conceiving be murder to you, because you're slaughtering billions of potential children? Where do you draw the line champ?

Sex before marraige a major nonono in my book champ! Not after. It is actually what humans were asked to do by God to start with. Adam and Eve were married and then were supposed to fill the earth with offspring, that has not changed. But it is within the marraige.

Also you cant help that those people have gone off the rails because they were adopted, you dont know if it was jsut that they made the wrong choices in life that got them there and you will never know why they made those choices.

A fetus is a child, it is the beginnings of life and a precious gift given to us from God Psalm 127:3 3 Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruitage of the belly is a reward

Also God doesnt want the suffering, he feels hurt in his heart that it is happening, but right now, Satan put a challenge and God has had to allow that challenge to ride out. He set a specific date in history and we are nearing that date very quickly now, in which he will put an end to pain and suffering.

In Revelation 21:4 it is described as And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. That is the promise that God has given us. We just have to ride out the last days of this system

 

[McBell]

A fetus is a child,

*sighs*

ONLY if you are Humpty Dumpty.


If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
Four.
Calling a tail a leg does not make a tail a leg.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And personally, I don't see much difference in killing a newborn and "aborting" a 36 week old fetus. Both are arguably just as aware of themselves.

You'd be hard-pressed to actually make that argument.

Many mental functions are suppressed during the fetal stage. These only "turn on" at the switchover from fetal circulation and respiration that occurs at birth.

If a fetus doesn't have the mental wherewithal to even have the reflexes to breathe or to pump its heart strongly enough to actually circulate its own blood, then it's definitely not a foregone conclusion that it's self-aware.

 

[Madhuri]

I'm going to copy and paste part of an essay I wrote a while back (I'm far too tired to summarise this for you, sorry!). It addresses the issues without making conclusions. It was based off an article about the abortion date limit being 6 months.

" My Views on Abortion
Category: Life

Abortion Laws; Time Limit​

.. ..​

In May of 2008, the British House of Commons voted against a change to the time limit allowed for abortion in the United Kingdom..... An article entitled British MPs Reject Abortion Law Change, published by The Australian on May 21st explains that Britain has one of the latest cut off dates for pregnancy termination. Since the laws were introduced in 1967 the cut off date has been twenty four weeks. The vote for change was introduced by a Member of Parliament and nurse Nadine Dorries who attempted to reduce the date by at least four weeks.
.. ..
Why are people concerned about abortion? Does it matter when a termination is performed? There are three categories of perspective; these consist of conservative theories, liberal theories and intermediate theories. Conservative theory purports that a foetus has a right to life from the moment of conception; liberal theories claim that a child can only attain this right at birth and moderate theories assert that a baby has a right to life when it becomes a person.
.. ..
The fundamental questions asked when attempting to establish when a foetus is allowed moral status include whether the foetus is an individual organism, if it is biologically and psychologically human and if it is a person. According to Mary Warren (1973) there are five properties that characterise a human being. These are the existence of consciousness, reasoning, self-motivated activity, communication through language and presence of self-concept. A question that seems to arise is how can anybody know if a foetus is capable of some or all of these criteria and how important are they to moral consideration? In order to answer these questions, it is important to understand why killing any person is considered wrong.
.. ..
A method of establishing a person’s sentiments on death can be accomplished by asking what it is that people mourn for when they realise that they will die and also why it is that a majority of people consider it a greater tragedy when a child dies as opposed to when an adult dies. The answer is that people value future life experience. Therefore, the focus of any analyses concerning the killing of foetus, embryo or child should be on the life of value that the developing organism has potential for rather than it’s possible personhood. This is further reflected by the obscurity in ascertaining a fixed point of personhood in a foetus and the continuous disagreements on when a foetus is human enough to attain personal rights. However, laws and policies do not draw on this view and it is therefore necessary to address the general perspectives that influence them.
.. ..
Laws rely on scientific and theoretical claims on when a foetus is thought to be human. There are two central theories of death; the Brain-Dead theory and Paul Ramsey’s Theory of Death. The Brain-Dead theory claims that a person can only be dead (and thus not a person) when their brain stops functioning. Ramsey’s theory claims that as well as the brain, the heart and lungs must cease to function naturally. It can thus be assumed that in order for a foetus to be considered human, these organs must be functioning in some manner. If this is the case then a foetus must be considered a person by at least the sixth week of development when not only are these organs operating, but the stomach is producing digestive acids, the liver is manufacturing blood cells, the kidneys are extracting uric acid from the blood and the nerves and muscles are operating.
.. ..
The laws which constitute when an abortion can occur rely upon theories of personhood but these theories are various and unreliable. The point in time when a foetus develops consciousness and individuality is unknown but according to the criteria provided by several theorists on personhood it is surely necessary to at least decrease the cut off date for abortion"

 

[YmirGF]

Eh, the baby wouldn't survive without help even after it is born. A foetus is an underdeveloped human being. It would not grow or function if it were not 'alive'. Even within the womb, at an early stage, it is aware through basic senses such as sound and touch. So even in its helpless state, it is very much alive.

I don't think that an argument established on the idea that the baby would not be able to survive independently is either strong or valid. Being helpless should not decrease the value of your life.

And that is why I say that everything prior to the moment of birth is moot. The problem of treating this in any other way is the host of "would have" and "could have's" that immediately arise... which may or may not infringe of the inherent rights of the mother. In my view, the woman's right should NEVER be compromised.

 

[DarkSun]

You'd be hard-pressed to actually make that argument.

Many mental functions are suppressed during the fetal stage. These only "turn on" at the switchover from fetal circulation and respiration that occurs at birth.

If a fetus doesn't have the mental wherewithal to even have the reflexes to breathe or to pump its heart strongly enough to actually circulate its own blood, then it's definitely not a foregone conclusion that it's self-aware.

Since when does the functionality of the autonomic nervous system indicate conscious thought and self awareness?

 

[DarkSun]

It's funny, really... I can be conservative on one issue, but completely liberal on another. I wonder what category I fit into. I'm obviously an advocate for the conservative view when it comes to drugs and abortion, but when it comes to race, nationality and so forth, I'm extremely liberal. I wonder what that says.

 

[Sententia]

It's funny, really... I can be conservative on one issue, but completely liberal on another. I wonder what category I fit into. I'm obviously an advocate for the conservative view when it comes to drugs and abortion, but when it comes to race, nationality and so forth, I'm extremely liberal. I wonder what that says.

Take a shot in the dark here... But perhaps a fundamental misunderstanding of what intelligence is and how AI and what you perceive to be Natural Intelligence differs.

Vanity perhaps? (Most likely?)

Who knows really. I think the demonetization of women who have late term abortions is wrong and done so for those who wish only to spread hate. I see women picketing EVERY day I go to work in front of a planned parenthood. Having spoken with them twice if they knew what Planned Parenthood actually did then they wouldnt be there. But they dont care to know. Hatred is just cool that way eh?