"Life is going great, so I became religious."

[Falvlun]

To the OP... it's true that I became religious at a time of crisis... sorta. I reverted to theism from a particularly infantile atheism in response to my oft-mentioned theophany. That said, I was a maltheist at that time. It was only as my life improved and I began to recover that I developed faith.

I also forgot to mention...

I went from atheism to theism when I was very, very happy with things. It wasn't that which caused me to become a believer or religious, though.

Thanks for the input. I'm happy to hear stuff like this.

 

[waitasec]

I can, and I have

Do you really want to go into all the various laws, and why God has made them so? We could be here for a long time..
Whatever I tell you, if you desire to break the laws, and show disdain for what God has revealed,, you will strive to prove that I'm wrong..

Well .. I'm not here to convince anybody .. I'm here to put my argument forward within reason, and if you think that I "haven't proved it" .. fine .. believe what you like

circular reasoning...

 

[Drolefille]

I can, and I have

Then you have no argument because you can't or won't support your claim. *shrug* your choice.

Do you really want to go into all the various laws, and why God has made them so? We could be here for a long time..
Whatever I tell you, if you desire to break the laws, and show disdain for what God has revealed,, you will strive to prove that I'm wrong..

You're missing the point. If there is some sort of negative consequence for my actions that are "against god" then why am i not experiencing it? Even providing a single example would help you out here.
I'm saying that it isn't enough for a god to just say "these are the rules because I said so" if the rules are unjust or even seem unjust to his creations. Even if we're simply being rebellious like teenagers, a failure to explain the reasoning for the rules is a sign of bad parenting, it's certainly a sign of bad godhood.

I make no claims for whether your god exists, although I don't believe in him particularly, but if he does, I have no desire to give him worship or to follow his rules because I find them to be unjust and wrong. It's not about proving YOU wrong. Your justification for why food is forbidden or modesty should be adhered to, or prayers or tithing must be followed may be quite developed explanations. But that doesn't mean that I agree with them.

Well .. I'm not here to convince anybody .. I'm here to put my argument forward within reason, and if you think that I "haven't proved it" .. fine .. believe what you like

You didn't provide any reason, just unsupported claims. If you can't support an argument, then why have it? Why tell people they're just being rebellious to god if you can't tell them why or how?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You're missing the point. If there is some sort of negative consequence for my actions that are "against god" then why am i not experiencing it?

Time will tell..

I'm saying that it isn't enough for a god to just say "these are the rules because I said so" if the rules are unjust or even seem unjust to his creations.

As far as I'm concerned it is .. do you expect to understand everything that Almighty God can understand?
Doesn't stop us trying, though..

..I have no desire to give him worship or to follow his rules because I find them to be unjust and wrong.

So you say .. I don't !

If you can't support an argument, then why have it? Why tell people they're just being rebellious to god if you can't tell them why or how?

Ignoring what Almighty God has revealed, or deeming it "unfair" is rebelling, isn't it?
What's unfair about being told not to eat pig-meat? Does it cause drastic deprivation, or something?
..or is it that we consider our desires are so much more important?

 

[waitasec]

..or is it that we consider our desires are so much more important?

noticed you ignored this post...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2764798-post144.html

 

[Breathe]

Thanks for the input. I'm happy to hear stuff like this.

Welcome.

 

[Drolefille]

Time will tell..

So you have no answer.

As far as I'm concerned it is .. do you expect to understand everything that Almighty God can understand?
Doesn't stop us trying, though..

I expect that a creator respects his creations at least as much as a parent respects his child.

But in reality I expect that most of the rules are based on the prevaling customs of the times and are utterly unrelated towhat any deity actually cares about.
Because I'm only indulging in the belief in god for the sake of this discussion. I don't believe in him, my point is simply that if I did, I wouldn't want to follow him anyway.

So you say .. I don't !

Obviously.

Ignoring what Almighty God has revealed, or deeming it "unfair" is rebelling, isn't it?

Are you actively rebelling against the Hindu gods? What about the Mayan deities? Or do you just ignore what they say? Isn't that rebelling against them?
Or is it that you have decided that your beliefs are correct? That your god is the right one?

I find a lot of things unfair or unjust from a variety of cultures.

What's unfair about being told not to eat pig-meat? Does it cause drastic deprivation, or something?

It was an example of a rule that I requested you provide me with the negative consequences of breaking. Something you cannot or will not do. I didn't state it was an unfair rule.

..or is it that we consider our desires are so much more important?

I don't know what you consider important. I just consider the rule unimportant and pork to be an effective source of nutrition.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you have no answer.

Are you actively rebelling against the Hindu gods? What about the Mayan deities? Or do you just ignore what they say? Isn't that rebelling against them?
Or is it that you have decided that your beliefs are correct? That your god is the right one?

Shall we stick to 'one thing at a time' .. we were discussing the Abrahamic God (creator of universe), weren't we?

It was an example of a rule that I requested you provide me with the negative consequences of breaking. Something you cannot or will not do. I didn't state it was an unfair rule.

I don't know what you consider important. I just consider the rule unimportant and pork to be an effective source of nutrition.

You consider the rule to be unimportant, because you were raised that way .. it doesn't mean that you are correct..
Did Jesus (peace be with him) eat pig-meat?
I would say not ! So to follow Jesus, we should follow that example

 

[Drolefille]

Shall we stick to 'one thing at a time' .. we were discussing the Abrahamic God (creator of universe), weren't we?

You missed the point I was making. If you're rebelling against the Mayan gods, then I'm rebelling against the Abrahamic god (not the creator of my universe). If you're just not considering the Mayan gods as valid and not rebelling at all... then... It's all a matter of your perspective after all.

You consider the rule to be unimportant, because you were raised that way .. it doesn't mean that you are correct..

I was raised not to eat meat on Fridays and I consider that rule to be unimportant as well.
Whether you were raised that way or chose it later, it doesn't mean you are correct either. *shrug*

Did Jesus (peace be with him) eat pig-meat?

Jesus didn't use computers either. Nor did he work on Saturdays, or wear mixed fabrics. Why would I do what Jesus would do?

I would say not ! So to follow Jesus, we should follow that example

I don't follow Jesus. And I sincerely doubt that you live exactly as he did either, so why X but not Y?

 

[McBell]

Shall we stick to 'one thing at a time' .. we were discussing the Abrahamic God (creator of universe), weren't we?



You consider the rule to be unimportant, because you were raised that way .. it doesn't mean that you are correct..
Did Jesus (peace be with him) eat pig-meat?
I would say not ! So to follow Jesus, we should follow that example

Your are being rather inconsistent.

First you whine about getting back on the topic you want to talk about, then in the very next sentence, YOU run off topic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You didn't provide any reason, just unsupported claims. If you can't support an argument, then why have it? Why tell people they're just being rebellious to god if you can't tell them why or how?

Like I said .. whatever reasons I give, you will tell me why they're not valid..
I don't intend to continue

 

[waitasec]

Like I said .. whatever reasons I give, you will tell me why they're not valid..
I don't intend to continue

if i tell you that all of our children were to die a horrible death tomorrow, and the only way to prevent it was if you
deposited $$$ into my paypal account....
would you believe me? why or why not?

 

[idav]

if i tell you that all of our children were to die a horrible death tomorrow, and the only way to prevent it was if you
deposited $$$ into my paypal account....
would you believe me? why or why not?

OMG, what is your email address ASAP?

LOL, reminds me of that movie "The Invention of Lying", classic.

 

[Drolefille]

Like I said .. whatever reasons I give, you will tell me why they're not valid..
I don't intend to continue

Man, I need to get into the religion business.

"If you don't do what I say God says you'll be punished."
"How?"
"You'll see."
"Yeah but how?"
"Time will tell"
"Tell what?"
"I'm not going to tell you because you'll just not believe me."

And people BELIEVE that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"I'm not going to tell you because you'll just not believe me."

It's not a question of whether you'll believe me, it's a question of whether our conversation has any merit..
Perhaps you'd like me to analyse the last few posts..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You: How am I being destroyed? You can't actually tell me what negative consequences i bring on myself?

Me: I'll leave that for you to decide .. if you think that there is no such thing as sin, or negative consequences to any of our actions, then I'm 'flogging a dead horse' !

You: I don't think there are negative consequences for not keeping kosher or halal .. The negative consequences from my being non-monogamous are all related to society's perceptions, primarily there are personal, emotional and relationship benefits.

Me: believe what you like .. time will tell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So .. you want me to try and convince you why eating pork and adultery will have negative consequences on your life..
I say that they will .. but if you have no wish to acknowledge it, it's a poinless exercise.

Saying that you don't believe in 'the Abrahamic god', because you don't like "His rules" suggests rebellion to me..
Who created the universe? .. who created human-beings? .. just a 'meaningless accident' is it?

 

[Drolefille]

It's not a question of whether you'll believe me, it's a question of whether our conversation has any merit..
Perhaps you'd like me to analyse the last few posts..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You: How am I being destroyed? You can't actually tell me what negative consequences i bring on myself?

Me: I'll leave that for you to decide .. if you think that there is no such thing as sin, or negative consequences to any of our actions, then I'm 'flogging a dead horse' !

You: I don't think there are negative consequences for not keeping kosher or halal .. The negative consequences from my being non-monogamous are all related to society's perceptions, primarily there are personal, emotional and relationship benefits.

Me: believe what you like .. time will tell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes you essentially provided no support to anything you said other than an insistence that you were correct

So .. you want me to try and convince you why eating pork and adultery will have negative consequences on your life..

No, I want you to provide something, anything, to support your claim rather than just stating it is true over and over again.

I say that they will .. but if you have no wish to acknowledge it, it's a poinless exercise.

It's only pointless because you're saying nothing more than "it will."
If the exchange were "It will" "It won't" "It will" "It won't" I'd agree that it's pointless, but instead it's "It will" "How" "It will" "But how"

Saying that you don't believe in 'the Abrahamic god', because you don't like "His rules" suggests rebellion to me..

No, I feel like I was pretty clear on this. I don't believe in him because I don't believe in him. Because I had faith in him and lost it and in fact asked him for faith pretty emphatically and still lost it. I clung onto it for a long time, far past the point where I felt anything. I don't LIKE him because of a lot of other reasons, but that's only if I posit his existence in the first place.

So again I ask you, are you rebelling against the Hindu devas? The Native American spirits? The Shinto kami?

Who created the universe? .. who created human-beings? .. just a 'meaningless accident' is it?

Two problems
1) If I believe the universe was created, I don't necessarily have to believe it was your god who created it. If I believe that Atum created himself out of the chaos before creating the world, there's as much evidence that Abe's god did it.
2) I find science convincing on the matter of the big bang and so on. Whether or not there was a creator behind the whole thing, I don't know and I don't really hold a position on it. I just don't believe it was the Abrahamic god.

Your assumption that your god is the default is very narrow, as perspectives go.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your assumption that your god is the default is very narrow, as perspectives go.

I don't think so! It's natural to believe in God .. true, without the Bible & Qur'an, we wouldn't have the details that they provide..
However, perhaps you'd like to postulate a better explanation?

 

[Drolefille]

I don't think so! It's natural to believe in God .. true, without the Bible & Qur'an, we wouldn't have the details that they provide..
However, perhaps you'd like to postulate a better explanation?

Explanation for what? I don't see anything lacking an explanation. Feel free to respond to the rest of my post that was equally relevent.

 

[Storm]

I don't think so! It's natural to believe in God .. true, without the Bible & Qur'an, we wouldn't have the details that they provide..
However, perhaps you'd like to postulate a better explanation?

Read more carefully... she said YOUR God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Explanation for what?

Existence..

If I believe the universe was created, I don't necessarily have to believe it was your god who created it.

Yes .. carry on..
I suppose you will tell me that "any of them " are equally likely..

Interesting isn't it? On "who wants to be a millionaire", when somebody doesn't know the answer, they sometimes "ask the audience" .. that prize money is really important, isn't it?

If the audience are almost unanimous in their answer, it is chosen!