"Life is going great, so I became religious."

[Drolefille]

because you 1st have to prove there is a god who offers an afterlife while living in this reality.

To be fair he's specifically excluding the concern of an afterlife from the discussion, I think pressuring that is picking a different fight.

 

[waitasec]

To be fair he's specifically excluding the concern of an afterlife from the discussion, I think pressuring that is picking a different fight.

i can see that...

 

[Nakosis]

If you disagree with God's laws and don't want to follow them, just don't be surprised if he holds you accountable for your actions.

I expect to be fully held accountable for my actions. I'm not like the Christians who want to make Jesus accountable for my actions.

Most people who don't want to entertain this idea disagree with the notion that they've done anything that is worthy of judgement. They think God's laws are tools of enslavement instead of the key to realizing human potential.

The problem is, I don't think they are God's laws. They are the laws of men claiming to speak for God. You choose to trust these people you've never met who claim to speak for God. I see no reason to and I think it's kind of foolish to trust people you don't even know to dictate God's laws to you. However, for whatever reason, this seems reasonable to you.

It's like people want to just close their eyes and cover their ears and say "it's not real because I don't believe it's real." They want to just "construct" their own realities and say things like"If it's true for me, it's true for me". These end up being nothing more than dreamworlds that at best provide a little emotional comfort at the expense of being delusional.

This is exactly what you are doing. Reality is what it is and we all have to deal with the truth of that. Many would rather close their eyes to reality and believe in the supernatural dictated to them by men they never met. These end up being nothing more than dreamworlds that at best provide a little emotional comfort at the expense of being delusional.

 

[waitasec]

Why comment on that?
I said:-
Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

You see? .. NEVERMIND THE NEXT
..so your answer was nothing to do with my question

yes you are right...
:sorry1:

now, in regards to the question

Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?

there are several arbitrary laws from god that come to mind that have absolutely no benefit
animal sacrifices for atonement
ban of homosexuality
female circumcision
the use of condoms
shell fish
pork
being set a part for seven days because of the menstruation cycle
the questioning of authority.

if you are talking about the obvious
murder, theft and perjury
those things do not need a law from god to determine if it is good or bad
we've figured that out without god.

actually god's arbitrary laws do more harm then good...
what is the benefit of female circumcision?
or the ban on condoms? is it worse to use a condom than it is to get an STD?
and what is it about homosexuality? is it better for a confused teen to commit suicide then to be who they are?

 

[Nakosis]

Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?

I don't think God would which I think provides a really good reason to question the authority of the Bible.

Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

Ask Christians about that. They claim to have a covenant with Jesus.

How does that rebellious attitude help you or your family?
You might think that you don't need help..
..however if you change your mind, God is the Most Forgiving, Merciful

.. more than can be said about human-beings

Rebellious against those who claim to speak for God? Should we accept everyone claiming to speak for God as having the authority to do so?

Someone walks up to you on the street, who you don't know, never met and tells you a dozen laws you must follow because they are God's laws and you will be punished by God if you don't. Are you going to accept that without question?

 

[waitasec]

Should we accept everyone claiming to speak for God as having the authority to do so?

excellent question.

 

[Storm]

To the OP... it's true that I became religious at a time of crisis... sorta. I reverted to theism from a particularly infantile atheism in response to my oft-mentioned theophany. That said, I was a maltheist at that time. It was only as my life improved and I began to recover that I developed faith.

 

[Breathe]

I also forgot to mention...

I went from atheism to theism when I was very, very happy with things. It wasn't that which caused me to become a believer or religious, though.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Someone walks up to you on the street, who you don't know, never met and tells you a dozen laws you must follow because they are God's laws and you will be punished by God if you don't. Are you going to accept that without question?

Well obviously not !
However drolefille said:-
"I won't follow any deity that lays down unjust laws with nothing more than a threat of punishment."

implying that God was unjust .. He is not in the least!

He tells us "don't do this or that" for our own benefit .. it's the reality that disobedience has consequences .. there is no need for God to "punish us like a child" .. we have already punished ourselves by our actions, particularly if we are unrepentant.

You might ask what is meant by God's forgiveness or punishment, in that case .. Almighty God is not a 'bearded ogre in the sky' .. God is not a man .. God is the creator of men

It's a lot more subtile than that..

 

[Drolefille]

Well obviously not !
However drolefille said:-
"I won't follow any deity that lays down unjust laws with nothing more than a threat of punishment."

implying that God was unjust .. He is not in the least!

In my experience he is. Or so his followers and his writings claim him to be. Perhaps he's not, but no one has successfully been able to convince me of that. It's part of what pulled me from my church prior to losing my faith.

He tells us "don't do this or that" for our own benefit .. it's the reality that disobedience has consequences .. there is no need for God to "punish us like a child" .. we have already punished ourselves by our actions, particularly if we are unrepentant.

How exactly? You make this claim and yet, no punishment. I eat pork, which is forbidden by 2 of 3 Abrahamic religious and no punishment. No illness. No death. No slap on the back of the head by an annoyed deity. I'm not taunting your god, I'm making the point that your claim needs evidence. I'm happier being pansexual than I ever was being monogamous and straight. I'm healthier too. My life is better. So how am I being punished?

You might ask what is meant by God's forgiveness or punishment, in that case .. Almighty God is not a 'bearded ogre in the sky' .. God is not a man .. God is the creator of men

Then the creator of men can speak to his creations if he really wants us to follow a big old list of rules that no one can agree on exactly how to follow. Why wouldn't our omnipotent creator speak to someone who was losing her faith?

It's a lot more subtile than that..

Then I guess I just must be too stupid to figure it out. Shame god made me too stupid, right?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then I guess I just must be too stupid to figure it out. Shame god made me too stupid, right?

Depends what you mean by stupid..
Sometimes, we can be to clever for our own good..
Pride, envy, arrogance & not least, desire are our greatest enemies .. through them, we destroy ourselves

 

[waitasec]

Depends what you mean by stupid..
Sometimes, we can be to clever for our own good..
Pride, envy, arrogance & not least, desire are our greatest enemies .. through them, we destroy ourselves

so tell us,
what makes you think your passion for this religion isn't based on these things?

 

[Drolefille]

Depends what you mean by stupid..
Sometimes, we can be to clever for our own good..
Pride, envy, arrogance & not least, desire are our greatest enemies .. through them, we destroy ourselves

You responded to nothing else i posted, why?

How am I being destroyed? You can't actually tell me what negative consequences i bring on myself?

If i believe god gave me a brain, then i must believe he expected me to use it. As it stands, i believe we evolved a brain, and the rest is up in the air. But if there are gods, Abe's isn't one I'd follow.

 

[Nakosis]

Well obviously not !
However drolefille said:-
"I won't follow any deity that lays down unjust laws with nothing more than a threat of punishment."

implying that God was unjust .. He is not in the least!

He tells us "don't do this or that" for our own benefit .. it's the reality that disobedience has consequences .. there is no need for God to "punish us like a child" .. we have already punished ourselves by our actions, particularly if we are unrepentant.

You might ask what is meant by God's forgiveness or punishment, in that case .. Almighty God is not a 'bearded ogre in the sky' .. God is not a man .. God is the creator of men

It's a lot more subtile than that..

Ok, but then how do we deal with claims of "God's Law" from the Bible or Qur'an which seem unjust to us? Do we discount parts of religious writings since knowing God, being just, would never implement such laws?

 

[Vger]

Even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.​

 

[Nakosis]

Even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.​

I don't live with absolute morality. I live with my morality and I put up with civic laws even though at times they maybe inconvenient.

 

[Vger]

I don't live with absolute morality. I live with my morality and I put up with civic laws even though at times they maybe inconvenient.

When some guy hustles you out of eighty bucks in an ebay scam, you don't nod and say, "Interesting! This fellow lacks the genetic predisposition toward equitable dealing that generations of sexual selection in favor of social behavior has instilled in the rest of us! A fascinating difference.

No, you think what that guy did was wrong. You want justice. You think he should have acted differently.

Even though there's no "wrong" molecule floating in the air and there's no "justice" element on the Periodic Table. You don't think of the swindler as just a fellow animal who happens to behave differently than you. You think he should have acted some other way, according to an invisible ideal that everybody is aware of and knows they should obey. ​

​

 

[Nakosis]

When some guy hustles you out of eighty bucks in an ebay scam, you don't nod and say, "Interesting! This fellow lacks the genetic predisposition toward equitable dealing that generations of sexual selection in favor of social behavior has instilled in the rest of us! A fascinating difference.

No, you think what that guy did was wrong. You want justice. You think he should have acted differently.

Even though there's no "wrong" molecule floating in the air and there's no "justice" element on the Periodic Table. You don't think of the swindler as just a fellow animal who happens to behave differently than you. You think he should have acted some other way, according to an invisible ideal that everybody is aware of and knows they should obey. ​

​

How do you know what I think?

 

[Vger]

How do you know what I think?

Good question. I am just going off of human natural and 9 times out of 10 we all mostly the same. But I guess there is alway room for error. Just an old man giving thought to the subject. So how do you think?

 

[Storm]

When some guy hustles you out of eighty bucks in an ebay scam, you don't nod and say, "Interesting! This fellow lacks the genetic predisposition toward equitable dealing that generations of sexual selection in favor of social behavior has instilled in the rest of us! A fascinating difference.

No, you think what that guy did was wrong. You want justice. You think he should have acted differently.

Even though there's no "wrong" molecule floating in the air and there's no "justice" element on the Periodic Table. You don't think of the swindler as just a fellow animal who happens to behave differently than you. You think he should have acted some other way, according to an invisible ideal that everybody is aware of and knows they should obey​

​

​

​

Believing there is no absolute morality is not equivalent to believing there is no morality at all.