"Life is going great, so I became religious."

[waitasec]

No but you do punish your child when they do something you feel is wrong.

my main objective as a parent isn't to punish it's to guide...unlike the god of the bible.

 

[Falvlun]

my main objective as a parent isn't to punish it's to guide...unlike the god of the bible.

Also, as a parent, I don't think I'd sacrifice my good kid (even if he would ultimately come back to life) in order to be able to forgive my bad kid. Just sayin'

 

[9Westy9]

Also, as a parent, I don't think I'd sacrifice my good kid (even if he would ultimately come back to life) in order to be able to forgive my bad kid. Just sayin'

I wouldn't even need a sacrifice to forgive my bad kid. If I was a parent forgiveness would be unconditional and automatic

 

[waitasec]

I wouldn't even need a sacrifice to forgive my bad kid. If I was a parent forgiveness would be unconditional and automatic

but as a parent who has insecurity issues, that would be the way to ensure power over them.

 

[Nakosis]

God doesn't "need" anybody. He wants our love. You're a parent right? Do you need your child's love? Or do you want it very much?

I just want my kids to be happy. I'd be content with that.

I believe God wants us to be happy. What lesson we learn while here are for our sake not God's.

I don't think God wants us to be totally dependent like some Christians seem to think. I don't think God wants to be worshiped like some religions believe. If I were to create a reality with intelligent beings, I'd want them to be able to achieve happiness.

Now maybe there is a God who does want such things. If so then such a God hold little interest for me nor am I overly concerned about pleasing such an entity.

My children's happiness is my happiness. I don't really need nor want anything else for them or from them.

 

[McBell]

Wouldn't you agree there's a difference between "wanting" and "needing"?

Yes I would.

however, even if you replace the word 'need' in that sentence with the word 'want', it still remains an empty claim with no evidence to support it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

my main objective as a parent isn't to punish it's to guide...unlike the god of the bible.

Fair enough. That probably wasn't the best analogy. I'll try again. Do you have a problem when our justice system sentences a murder to 20 years to life in prison? How about a rapist being sentenced to 10 to 20? My guess is no. The thing about God's form of justice is that people don't want to believe that many of their sins are sins at all. If they acknowledge their sins then too often they disagree with God about the proper punishment. It's all rooted in the worship of the self.

 

[Nakosis]

Fair enough. That probably wasn't the best analogy. I'll try again. Do you have a problem when our justice system sentences a murder to life in prison? How about a rapist being sentenced to 10 to 20? My guess is no. The thing about God's form of justice is that people don't want to believe that many of their sins are sins at all. If they acknowledge their sins then too often they disagree with God about the proper punishment. It's all rooted in the worship of the self.

With our civil laws they were developed through agreement. A group we agree to give authority to make an agreement as to what is a fair consequence for certain actions. We can always disagree and try to change the laws if we find them unfair. We've generally agreed to these punishments. That's why not too many are going to complain.

In the case of religion, why should people who don't believe in or accept the authority of a particular God be expected to accept the laws of that God?

If you want to follow the laws of a particular God, that's fine, as long as you don't break any civil laws in the process.

It's not about worshiping the self it's about disregarding that your particular God/concept of God has any authority to dictate what's right and wrong for them.

 

[waitasec]

Fair enough. That probably wasn't the best analogy. I'll try again.

ok...

Do you have a problem when our justice system sentences a murder to 20 years to life in prison? How about a rapist being sentenced to 10 to 20? My guess is no. The thing about God's form of justice is that people don't want to believe that many of their sins are sins at all. If they acknowledge their sins then too often they disagree with God about the proper punishment.

sin in and of itself is a relative term

is the sin the problem or why there is sin to begin with?
for instance...eating isn't a sin, but if one over eats it's considered to be gluttony...
why would one have the compulsion to over eat?
to shop is not a sin but if one over shops it can lead to debt
what would compel someone to go into debt...

and i'm curious as to why you used murder and rape as examples of how our justice system works. everyone knows these things are wrong save those who are sociopaths.
i can get into the OT and show how these very things were condoned in the OT but i'm afraid that would lead into a tangent that i've been on many times before.
lets use something a little more relevant to our real world...
premarital sex between 2 consenting adults
i'm assuming you may think it is a sin, but i do not. why do you think it's a sin? is it because you were brought up to believe it is? what are the reasons that would classify premarital sex to be sinful? especially in a day and age where we can protect ourselves...now i know what you may be thinking...why would one need protection if premarital sex isn't a sin.
lets think about that for a moment. we are sexual beings. it is healthy to have sex, doctors agree it is...ask Dr. Oz
it helps with stress, our number one killer. now yes there are STD's, but it isn't from having sex with multiple partners-(do the research yourself) STD's are passed through blood
well so is malaria...so then, is it a sin to get a mosquito bite because i chose to move to a continent that has a problem with malaria? i don't think so...both involve a choice and both involve bad luck.

It's all rooted in the worship of the self.

i can say the exact same thing about the idea of salvation...
it is the worship of the self that would enable one to believe in the hereafter...

 

[Drolefille]

No but you do punish your child when they do something you feel is wrong. In this case you, in your infinate wisdom, disagree with God about what is actually evil. That's why your attitude is what it is. It's like you believe God, in his egotistical foolishness, is just randomly designating certain behaviors as evil because he likes ruining everyone's good time. In a culture that worships sex, the disagreements usually surround commands that govern sexual behavior. Perhaps if you saw sin through God's eyes you wouldn't have so much trouble questioning him about why certain things are evil.

If you disagree with God's laws and don't want to follow them, just don't be surprised if he holds you accountable for your actions. Most people who don't want to entertain this idea disagree with the notion that they've done anything that is worthy of judgement. They think God's laws are tools of enslavement instead of the key to realizing human potential. It's like people want to just close their eyes and cover their ears and say "it's not real because I don't believe it's real." They want to just "construct" their own realities and say things like"If it's true for me, it's true for me". These end up being nothing more than dreamworlds that at best provide a little emotional comfort at the expense of being delusional.

That's still an argument of fear. Obey, because if you don't, expect punishment.
You make a lot of assumptions about what God really thinks. That's your idea of God, but when it contrasts with someone else's idea of god, how do you decide who is right?

And anyway, say I'm a parent. If I lay down a law that my child find's unjust they're going to break it. My options are punish them until they're so scared of me that they won't dare step out of line or explain the law to them so they understand it. Even if they don't agree with it, they can respect my rule. One makes me a ****** parent the other a good one.

I won't follow any deity that lays down unjust laws with nothing more than a threat of punishment. Particularly in the face of claims of omnipotence, said deity can explain it to me, personally, if it wants my attention or respect. Until then, the God of Abraham is not a god I would follow anywhere, in a large part due to his followers, but primarily due to 'his' rules.

 

[McBell]

If you disagree with God's laws and don't want to follow them, just don't be surprised if he holds you accountable for your actions.

As soon as "god" holds someone accountable for their actions...
But we have not ever seen "god" holding anyone accountable for anything, now have we?
Nope.
All we have seen is people who claim to be doing gods work...

A rather empty threat if you ask me.

Most people who don't want to entertain this idea disagree with the notion that they've done anything that is worthy of judgement.

Based on what?
I mean, on what do you base the claim "they disagree that they have done anything worthy of judgment"?

They think God's laws are tools of enslavement instead of the key to realizing human potential.

Again, based on what?

It's like people want to just close their eyes and cover their ears and say "it's not real because I don't believe it's real."

Which is no different that saying "it is real because I want it to be real".

They want to just "construct" their own realities and say things like"If it's true for me, it's true for me".

Sounds like you are suffering from transference.

These end up being nothing more than dreamworlds that at best provide a little emotional comfort at the expense of being delusional.

How, exactly is this any different than those who make all the claims about how god demands this and god demands that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I won't follow any deity that lays down unjust laws with nothing more than a threat of punishment.

Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

Particularly in the face of claims of omnipotence, said deity can explain it to me, personally, if it wants my attention or respect..

How does that rebellious attitude help you or your family?
You might think that you don't need help..
..however if you change your mind, God is the Most Forgiving, Merciful

.. more than can be said about human-beings

 

[McBell]

.. more than can be said about human-beings

Especially those humans who claim to speak for god...

 

[waitasec]

Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

a baseless claim...

How does that rebellious attitude help you or your family?
You might think that you don't need help..
..however if you change your mind, God is the Most Forgiving, Merciful

.. more than can be said about human-beings

1st you need to prove this god exists...

 

[Falvlun]

Fair enough. That probably wasn't the best analogy. I'll try again. Do you have a problem when our justice system sentences a murder to 20 years to life in prison? How about a rapist being sentenced to 10 to 20? My guess is no. The thing about God's form of justice is that people don't want to believe that many of their sins are sins at all. If they acknowledge their sins then too often they disagree with God about the proper punishment. It's all rooted in the worship of the self.

I'm sorry to gang up on you like this. But...

One of the main problems with this analogy is that in our justice system we have different grades of bad behavior, and punish them accordingly. In other words, we do not consider stealing a candy bar as bad as murdering someone. We do not punish the candy bar thief and the murderer in exactly the same way. And yet God does. In God's system, every single sin is just as bad as the other and all are punished with (if you believe in hell) eternal torture. Everyone gets the capital punishment.

We would consider it unjust if that is how our legal system were set up. So why should we not consider God's system unjust as well?

 

[muhammad_isa]

a baseless claim...

What's a 'baseless claim' ?
Did you even understand what I wrote?

 

[waitasec]

What's a 'baseless claim' ?
Did you even understand what I wrote?

the implication of the next world.

 

[muhammad_isa]

the implication of the next world.

Why comment on that?
I said:-
Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

You see? .. NEVERMIND THE NEXT
..so your answer was nothing to do with my question

 

[waitasec]

Why comment on that?
I said:-
Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?
Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world
nevermind the next

You see? .. NEVERMIND THE NEXT
..so your answer was nothing to do with my question

because you 1st have to prove there is a god who offers an afterlife while living in this reality.

 

[Drolefille]

Why should Almighty God ask you to obey a law which has no benefit for you?

I don't assume that a law has worth just because of who (allegedly) gave it.
Same Almighty God, allegedly, gave me this brain to think these thoughts and he, allegedly, knows that this is how I think.

Is it possible to escape from the consequences of our actions in "this reality"?
ie. this world

What actions have consequences that I'm trying to escape from? What negative consequences are there for eating pork, for example, other than religious ones?

nevermind the next

Which I'm quite agnostic about.

How does that rebellious attitude help you or your family?

How does it hurt me or my family?
Again, if said deity is the sole creator then said deity made me and knows me and can choose to treat me like an adult, or even like a good parent and talk to me, or it can continue to ignore me and let me be all sinful and rebellious or whatever else I'm being.

All of this leads me to sincerely doubt the existence of said deity in the form its followers claim, but that's hardly unusual for me.

You might think that you don't need help..

Really... this sort of line?

..however if you change your mind, God is the Most Forgiving, Merciful

Not in my experience, no.
And nothing you've said has been terribly convincing on that fact. It feels a bit like being told to go home to an abusive parent/spouse. He'll forgive you for leaving him... wait but I left because he's controlling and abusive ... he'll forgive you for being so rebellious...

Yeah there's a reason I don't live in a community that would support that.

.. more than can be said about human-beings

And yet, you believe he made us. Did a poor job of it then, right?

I stopped believing in this particular god for a variety of reasons but along the way I asked him for something to help me believe. I didn't want to stop believing, I just did. The last time I prayed to him specifically was just over a year ago at Christmas Eve Mass where I felt nada, nothing, and even the usual enjoyment I get of the tradition of mass - incense and songs I know by heart, the ritual - was like dust and droning.

Therefore I have to assume that if that god exists then he doesn't want anything to do with me right now, so why in the world would I want to do anything with him. There were other reasons as well.