"Life is going great, so I became religious."

[Vger]

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[/color] Believing there is no absolute morality is not equivalent to believing there is no morality at all.

Then by all means , please explain the difference, it seems I am confused. Or maybe you are just missing the point. Maybe.

 

[Storm]

Then by all means , please explain the difference, it seems I am confused.

Look up "absolute."

 

[Vger]

Look up "absolute."

Absolute Radio
Absolute Radio is one of the UK's three Independent National Radio stations. The station rebranded to its current name at 7.45am on 29 ...
:yes:

 

[Vger]

sorry , I seem to have a strange humor problem. I will try again.

 

[Vger]

I understand your meaning. As I am sure you get the point I was making. I have read many of your post , you seem to be a very open mind with a hint of being a skeptic. Which is a good thing.

 

[Storm]

I understand your meaning. As I am sure you get the point I was making. I have read many of your post , you seem to be a very open mind with a hint of being a skeptic. Which is a good thing.

A hint of skepticism is vital to the open mind.

 

[Drolefille]

Even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.​

Nope. Try again.

 

[muhammad_isa]

so tell us,
what makes you think your passion for this religion isn't based on these things?

Do you mean that I might be insincere in my belief, due to the aforesaid vices?
Theoretically possible, I suppose .. but as I'm a "convert", and haven't 'struck rich', I don't see it as very plausible ..

Tell us .. what might my real motive be then, in believing in The Creator of the universe, and acknowledging the truth of the Qur'an?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You responded to nothing else i posted, why?

I answer what I can .. if you have a very imporatnt point, you may repeat it, and I might answer it .. or explain why I can't .. or I'm why I'm not..

How am I being destroyed? You can't actually tell me what negative consequences i bring on myself?

I'll leave that for you to decide .. if you think that there is no such thing as sin, or negative consequences to any of our actions, then I'm 'flogging a dead horse' !

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok, but then how do we deal with claims of "God's Law" from the Bible or Qur'an which seem unjust to us? Do we discount parts of religious writings since knowing God, being just, would never implement such laws?

The first thing is to be sincere in our belief, and expect to have to make some sacrifice, in order to spiritually progress.
What we imagine is 'unfair' at first glance, may well be understood with perseverance..

Interpretation is very important, and although the majority is not always right, small 'sects' and offshoots
ie. 'non-orthodox'

should be viewed upon with scepticism, as 'the lone sheep' is devoured by the wolf..

So I would say that we cannot discount that which we don't understand, or change religion from its origin

 

[Vger]

Nope. Try again.

Nope. I think I will stick with my statement. I believe it to be at least 85% true if not more.

 

[waitasec]

Do you mean that I might be insincere in my belief, due to the aforesaid vices?
Theoretically possible, I suppose .. but as I'm a "convert", and haven't 'struck rich', I don't see it as very plausible ..

Tell us .. what might my real motive be then, in believing in The Creator of the universe, and acknowledging the truth of the Qur'an?

it would be presumptuous for me to assume your motive...
but in light of your response to my question, i have to ask, are you excluding yourself from this...i do see that you used the word "we".

Depends what you mean by stupid..
Sometimes, we can be to clever for our own good..
Pride, envy, arrogance & not least, desire are our greatest enemies .. through them, we destroy ourselves

 

[Drolefille]

I answer what I can .. if you have a very imporatnt point, you may repeat it, and I might answer it .. or explain why I can't .. or I'm why I'm not..

I'll just go with the bolded.
To me your lack of response to anything else indicates that you don't have answers. They're possibly hard questions. When you don't have answers, trying to convince someone else that they're wrong about god or religious isn't going to be particularly effective.

I'll leave that for you to decide .. if you think that there is no such thing as sin, or negative consequences to any of our actions, then I'm 'flogging a dead horse' !

Ok so lets take this piece by piece:
A) You'll leave it for me to decide what the negative consequences are. So first you claim that rebelling against god brings destruction and negative consequences in this world, but cannot articulate what sort of consequences these may be.
B) Sin: I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong, not in an absolute, granted from above way, but in a general way. One shouldn't infringe on the rights of others or harm someone else. Breaking the law is generally bad although the severity of such varies wildly depending on the situation.
C) Negative Consequences - Of Course I believe there are negative consequences in this life. But only when there's an actual wrong, not a deity handed down sin. I don't think there are negative consequences for not keeping kosher or halal, or for eating meat on Fridays in Lent. The negative consequences from my being non-monogamous are all related to society's perceptions, primarily there are personal, emotional and relationship benefits.

You're only beating a dead horse because you offer nothing more than exactly what we're complaining about: Threats of punishment - caused by ourselves or otherwise - for misbehavior.

What is the compelling reason to worship a god that threatens punishment, particularly when the law is considered unjust, other than fear?

 

[Drolefille]

Nope. I think I will stick with my statement. I believe it to be at least 85% true if not more.

Then elaborate.

I'm, well lets go with agnostic for clarity's sake, but an agnostic with a desire for faith.

I don't follow a list of rules handed down by a deity nor do I judge others against them. I do have a code of morality that I've built up myself, starting it on what I was taught by parents, and yes what they taught me about religious, but added to and torn away from so that it is my own.

You complain that when someone steals from you we don't wax philosophical on it. Of course not, because we're personally involved and we feel wronged, not just by our moral codes but also by our society's codes. If our society didn't look down on theft, somehow supporting it culturally, we probably wouldn't think anything was wrong with it, or would primarily be annoyed at an inconvenience rather than a wrong.

Societal mores aren't handed down from a deity nor are they absolute. So neither on the individual nor the societal level do I see everyone - even many believers - acting as if they follow a code that is either absolute or handed down from an ultimate authority.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I

You're only beating a dead horse because you offer nothing more than exactly what we're complaining about: Threats of punishment - caused by ourselves or otherwise - for misbehavior.

What is the compelling reason to worship a god that threatens punishment..

No! You're at it again .. "a god that threatens punishment"

It doesn't make any difference then, whether the punishment is self-inflicted by us rebelling against reality/authority, or 'some god' with a big stick?

 

[Drolefille]

No! You're at it again .. "a god that threatens punishment"

It doesn't make any difference then, whether the punishment is self-inflicted by us rebelling against reality/authority, or 'some god' with a big stick?

And again you ignore the rest of the post, including the relevent:

Threats of punishment - caused by ourselves or otherwise - for misbehavior.

You're warning me of nebulous punishment, punishment that has not occurred through ANY form. You can't claim there's a negative consequence and not show that they occur. What are the earthly self-inflicted punishments for eating foods that god forbids?

 

[Vger]

Then elaborate.

I'm, well lets go with agnostic for clarity's sake, but an agnostic with a desire for faith.

I don't follow a list of rules handed down by a deity nor do I judge others against them. I do have a code of morality that I've built up myself, starting it on what I was taught by parents, and yes what they taught me about religious, but added to and torn away from so that it is my own.

You complain that when someone steals from you we don't wax philosophical on it. Of course not, because we're personally involved and we feel wronged, not just by our moral codes but also by our society's codes. If our society didn't look down on theft, somehow supporting it culturally, we probably wouldn't think anything was wrong with it, or would primarily be annoyed at an inconvenience rather than a wrong.

Societal mores aren't handed down from a deity nor are they absolute. So neither on the individual nor the societal level do I see everyone - even many believers - acting as if they follow a code that is either absolute or handed down from an ultimate authority.

have you ever seen something and thought , wow. that is just not right. Same point. If you don't get the point then that is ok. But I stand by what I stated.

 

[Drolefille]

have you ever seen something and thought , wow. that is just not right. Same point. If you don't get the point then that is ok. But I stand by what I stated.

How does that relate to an absolute moral code handed down by an absolute authority?

You're connecting A to D without going through B and C

 

[Vger]

How does that relate to an absolute moral code handed down by an absolute authority?

You're connecting A to D without going through B and C

I am guilty of doing that from time to time. I don't see the need of going on. As I feel it would not be well recieved so I will retract my statement.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You can't claim there's a negative consequence and not show that they occur. What are the earthly self-inflicted punishments for eating foods that god forbids?

I can, and I have

Do you really want to go into all the various laws, and why God has made them so? We could be here for a long time..
Whatever I tell you, if you desire to break the laws, and show disdain for what God has revealed,, you will strive to prove that I'm wrong..

Well .. I'm not here to convince anybody .. I'm here to put my argument forward within reason, and if you think that I "haven't proved it" .. fine .. believe what you like