Logically, agnosticism is the most rational position

[loverofhumanity]

There are plenty of people past and present that lived happy, productive lives that held no belief in your god or any god. If believing in YOUR god concept makes you happy, good for you. Doesn't make it real. Doesn't mean that what works for you will work for anyone else. I'm comfortable with excepting the world for what it is and don't need to believe that some invisible super being is looking out for me.

Yes I agree fully.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And how the hell do you know that to be TRUE. ?

Because it's completely logical that man did not create himself. If he did prove it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, that means nothing, there are many so called Holy books, all saying something different, that all means nothing.

If these Holy Books meant nothing they wouldn't have had such an effect on humanity.

I dare anyone to create a Book like these and see if they can have the same effect. It's easy for people to knock something they don't understand by calling it nonsense but ask them to produce something like it and they back right away because they can't.

As I said. If these Books are just nothing then write one like it and see if your book will change humanity and be used in people's daily life to guide them.

Kings are forgotten but these Books and Prophets people remembered them everyday. Because They came from a Divine Source not just ordinary men.

 

[psychoslice]

If these Holy Books meant nothing they wouldn't have had such an effect on humanity.

I dare anyone to create a Book like these and see if they can have the same effect. It's easy for people to knock something they don't understand by calling it nonsense but ask them to produce something like it and they back right away because they can't.

As I said. If these Books are just nothing then write one like it and see if your book will change humanity and be used in people's daily life to guide them.

Kings are forgotten but these Books and Prophets people remembered them everyday. Because They came from a Divine Source not just ordinary men.

People are hood winked into anything they don't understand, and this is what religion does, hoodwinks everyone into its poison, its beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

People are hood winked into anything they don't understand, and this is what religion does, hoodwinks everyone into its poison, its beliefs.

That's exactly what I strongly believed in until I came across the Baha'is.

I had a lot of trouble trying to apply the same formula to them and ended up becoming a Baha'i.

 

[JustWondering]

The universe being eternal is only illogical if there was no creator. As an Eternal Being exists then the universe can also be eternal.

That doesn't make any sense. You claim that something super complex (a universe creating super being) can exist and always has existed without a beginning or creator. Yet, you have not supplied a rational reason for why a super complex universe cannot exist and always have existed without a beginning or creator. Simply stating and re-stating your belief that the universe just had to be created by something does not constitute a rational, logical argument. You tried to back your position earlier by saying that the universe has natural laws that dictate how things work but that is not a rational, logical argument either. Your inability to provide rational arguments for your position makes it clear that you reached your beliefs through wishful thinking, not reason and logic.

 

[Willamena]

That doesn't make any sense. You claim that something super complex (a universe creating super being) can exist and always have existed without a beginning or creator. Yet, you have not supplied a rational reason for why a super complex universe cannot exist and always have existed without a beginning or creator. Simply stating and re-stating your belief that the universe just had to be created by something does not constitute a rational, logical argument. You tried to back your position earlier by saying that the universe has natural laws that dictate how things work but that is not a rational, logical argument either. Your inability to provide rational arguments for your position makes it clear that you reached your beliefs through wishful thinking, not reason and logic.

It really isn't all that complex, it's just humanity's capacity for analysis that makes it complex.

 

[JustWondering]

Because it's completely logical that man did not create himself. If he did prove it.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. If I made claims about leprechauns or big foot or aliens it would be on me to provide reasons and evidence to support my claims. Simply stating a belief and then expecting others to blindly except it without a good reason is insane. I don't know how life on this world began, I don't know a lot of things. In those situations I simply admit that I don't know. YOU are the one making claims that an invisible super being poofed the universe into existence out of nothing so it has people to worship it. The burden of supporting your claims falls on you, no one else. You have yet to provide any evidence or even one rational argument to support your position. If the existence of your god made sense and had rational and logical arguments for its existence I'd probably be a believer too, but your god concept has zero evidence and rational arguments to support its existence.

 

[JustWondering]

It really isn't all that complex, it's just humanity's capacity for analysis that makes it complex.

Makes what complex?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There are mathematics involved that no man or computer can compute and so astronomically balanced that it's impossible there is not a Supreme Being.

Argument from incredulity and god-of-the-gaps pleading.

Nothing can of itself creat itself or. Ring itself into existence. A seed is even programmed by 'Someone'. Who?

Which would include the Creator. If he can somehow exist eternally then so can the Universe in one form or another - otherwise it's special pleading.

 

[psychoslice]

That's exactly what I strongly believed in until I came across the Baha'is.

I had a lot of trouble trying to apply the same formula to them and ended up becoming a Baha'i.

Yes I certainly don't put the Baha'is faith into the same basket, I see them as going beyond religion, so yes I do have a few so called religions that I trust.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes I certainly don't put the Baha'is faith into the same basket, I see them as going beyond religion, so yes I do have a few so called religions that I trust.

I hope one day you get to taste their Persian food in communities there are Persian Bahais. It's very delicious.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Argument from incredulity and god-of-the-gaps pleading.




Which would include the Creator. If he can somehow exist eternally then so can the Universe in one form or another - otherwise it's special pleading.

Hi Scotsman. Here I must use analogies to try and convey my understanding. Can a painting exist without having been painted? It's impossible. A painting cannot paint itself because it was not in existence to do so. But the painter can do that. It's impossible for the universe, like the painting to have made itself. It required a maker. It's very simple but too profound for some to grasp.

Use the analogy of the painting and try and describe to me how it can exist without the painter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. If I made claims about leprechauns or big foot or aliens it would be on me to provide reasons and evidence to support my claims. Simply stating a belief and then expecting others to blindly except it without a good reason is insane. I don't know how life on this world began, I don't know a lot of things. In those situations I simply admit that I don't know. YOU are the one making claims that an invisible super being poofed the universe into existence out of nothing so it has people to worship it. The burden of supporting your claims falls on you, no one else. You have yet to provide any evidence or even one rational argument to support your position. If the existence of your god made sense and had rational and logical arguments for its existence I'd probably be a believer too, but your god concept has zero evidence and rational arguments to support its existence.

I'm glad you're putting the burden of proof on me and rightly so.

I have pointed out clearly that a painting must have had a painter which is not only rational and logical but absolutely true and proven.

You are saying that the painting didn't need a painter or have one. That is illogical and a departure from truth and reality as we all know a painting cannot paint itself. Similarly with creation. It must have had a Creator or it could not have existed.

Logically this is a sound proof and argument as a painting cannot exist without a painter. Bread has a baker. It cannot compose and bake itself.

 

[psychoslice]

I hope one day you get to taste their Persian food in communities there are Persian Bahais. It's very delicious.

Sound great, are you a vegetarian ?.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesn't make any sense. You claim that something super complex (a universe creating super being) can exist and always has existed without a beginning or creator. Yet, you have not supplied a rational reason for why a super complex universe cannot exist and always have existed without a beginning or creator. Simply stating and re-stating your belief that the universe just had to be created by something does not constitute a rational, logical argument. You tried to back your position earlier by saying that the universe has natural laws that dictate how things work but that is not a rational, logical argument either. Your inability to provide rational arguments for your position makes it clear that you reached your beliefs through wishful thinking, not reason and logic.

Let's take the sun. The sun is its own entity. It's rays are not.

“Although the rays are always inseparable from the sun, the sun is pre-existent and the rays are originated; for the existence of the rays depends upon that of the sun, but the converse does not hold true: The sun is the bestower of grace and the rays are the grace itself.”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

There is a clear distinction between the created and the creator.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sound great, are you a vegetarian ?.

I'm heading that way. I'm finding meat not as tasty as it used to be and crave more for salads and vegetables.

When I used to live in Sydney I would visit the Hare Krishna Temples to eat what they call prashadum. And Lassi a yogurt drink.

Their vegetarian food is the the most tasty vegetarian food I have ever tasted.

 

[psychoslice]

I'm heading that way. I'm finding meat not as tasty as it used to be and crave more for salads and vegetables.

When I used to live in Sydney I would visit the Hare Krishna Temples to eat what they call prashadum. And Lassi a yogurt drink.

Their vegetarian food is the the most tasty vegetarian food I have ever tasted.

Yes i am a vegetarian, and I have tasted their food, beautiful, I have a Hare Krishna cook book, I am very much drawn towards India, and their Mysticism.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes i am a vegetarian, and I have tasted their food, beautiful, I have a Hare Krishna cook book, I am very much drawn towards India, and their Mysticism.

Thanks for reminding me about that. I have a PDF copy of the book. We don't have any strict dietary laws but we are told that the food of the future will not be meat. You have already advanced to that stage.

"What will be the food of the future?"

"Fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural diet is that which grows out of the ground. The people will gradually develop up to the condition of this natural food."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, cited in Julia M. Grundy. "Ten Days in the Light of 'Akka", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), pp. 8-9)

 

[psychoslice]

Thanks for reminding me about that. I have a PDF copy of the book. We don't have any strict dietary laws but we are told that the food of the future will not be meat. You have already advanced to that stage.

"What will be the food of the future?"

"Fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural diet is that which grows out of the ground. The people will gradually develop up to the condition of this natural food."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, cited in Julia M. Grundy. "Ten Days in the Light of 'Akka", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), pp. 8-9)

I see, and yes there is no time like the present, I became a vegetarian through my church many years ago, the Seventh Day Adventist, my favorite food is Indian, anything Indian.