Logically, agnosticism is the most rational position

[leibowde84]

You need to produce a monkey scientist or prophet as proof we are evolved from them.

why do you think this? Evolution means that we adapt to better fit our environment. We didn't evolve from monkeys, we share a common ancestor.

The embryo eventually develops into a person which has spiritual and scientific qualities not possessed by other firms of life.

But, why does this contradict the idea that we evolved from lesser evolved species? Why do you think us being the only species of animal with these qualities means that we didn't evolve?

 

[loverofhumanity]

why do you think this? Evolution means that we adapt to better fit our environment. We didn't evolve from monkeys, we share a common ancestor.

But, why does this contradict the idea that we evolved from lesser evolved species? Why do you think us being the only species of animal with these qualities means that we didn't evolve?

How can a quality in the branch not be in the root? If we evolved from a lower species they would have had to possess these qualities to be able to pass them onto us.

Only a human foetus can bring forth a human because it is of the same species. A different species cannot bring forth a human because they are of a different species to us.

He was always part of the human kingdom. That is how we understand it.

 

[g2perk]

Existence isn't the question. Is it logically possible to discuss what doesn't exist?

God doesn't only exist but he is present in our everyday lives.

 

[viole]

God doesn't only exist but he is present in our everyday lives.

May I ask Him to refrain from being so present?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...least-73-dead-including-many-children-as-apo/

Ciao

- viole

 

[g2perk]

May I ask Him to refrain from being so present?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...least-73-dead-including-many-children-as-apo/

Ciao

- viole

So what you are saying is that God killed these people.

 

[viole]

So what you are saying is that God killed these people.

Nope. I am pretty sure there is no god. But if there were, then I am telling you He did not do anything. Obviously. Or just fell to sleep. Who can say?

Ciao

- viole

 

[g2perk]

Nope. I am pretty sure there is no god. But if there were, then I am telling you He did not do anything. Obviously. Or just fell to sleep. Who can say?

Ciao

- viole

How did you come to a conclusion that God does not exist?

 

[viole]

How did you come to a conclusion that God does not exist?

In the same way I came to the conclusion that neither Superman nor Mother Goose exist.

If you want to know how it works, ask yourself why you think that Superman does not exist (if you do think he does not) and your line of reasoning about Superman is my line of reasoning about Gods.

Ciao

- viole

 

[g2perk]

In the same way I came to the conclusion that neither Superman nor Mother Goose exist.

If you want to know how it works, ask yourself why you think that Superman does not exist (if you do think he does not) and your line of reasoning about Superman is my line of reasoning about Gods.

Ciao

- viole

No need for that. I was asking because everyone has different reasons for not believing. Some has been hurt, some was lied to about Santa clause .I just thought you had a intelligent answer.

 

[viole]

No need for that. I was asking because everyone has different reasons for not believing. Some has been hurt, some was lied to about Santa clause .I just thought you had a intelligent answer.

Again, my reason for not believing is the same you have for disbelieving things like Superman or the Gods of the competition. I don't see anything irrational in that. Unless you think it is irrational to disbelieve Superman or the great Juju at the bottom of the sea.

And you didn't think I had an intelligent question. You hoped I told you something like "because my life is a mess" or "I feel so bad and hurt" just to come up with "yes, but Jesus/Allah/Apollo/Whoever loves you".

Isn't that so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[g2perk]

Again, my reason for not believing is the same you have for disbelieving things like Superman or the Gods of the competition. I don't see anything irrational in that. Unless you think it is irrational to disbelieve Superman or the great Juju at the bottom of the sea.

And you didn't think I had an intelligent question. You hoped I told you something like "because my life is a mess" or "I feel so bad and hurt" just to come up with "yes, but Jesus/Allah/Apollo/Whoever loves you".

Isn't that so?

Ciao

- viole

God does love you. Yes. He even died for you.

 

[viole]

God does love you. Yes. He even died for you.

You see? What I thought. And it is not a big deal that He loves me: everybody does.

And He did not die for me. He just took the Passover weekend off.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sleeppy]

God doesn't only exist but he is present in our everyday lives.

True. God is the source of existence, i.e. I Am. And, God sustains existence.

 

[JustWondering]

I'm glad you're putting the burden of proof on me and rightly so.

I have pointed out clearly that a painting must have had a painter which is not only rational and logical but absolutely true and proven.

You are saying that the painting didn't need a painter or have one. That is illogical and a departure from truth and reality as we all know a painting cannot paint itself. Similarly with creation. It must have had a Creator or it could not have existed.

Logically this is a sound proof and argument as a painting cannot exist without a painter. Bread has a baker. It cannot compose and bake itself.

Simply re-stating your belief does not constitute a rational, logical argument. The universe is not a painting or loaf of bread, it is a naturally existing thing, there is nothing to demonstrate a creator, intelligent or otherwise was involved or needed for anything to occur, ever. You need to provide something more than "the universe exists therefore god (MY specific god no less, not anybody else's)". It is a huge leap you are making. You need to show how you came to your conclusion that the universe had to be created in a rational manner if you want it to mean anything to me. You seem incapable of doing this however.

 

[JustWondering]

Let's take the sun. The sun is its own entity. It's rays are not.

“Although the rays are always inseparable from the sun, the sun is pre-existent and the rays are originated; for the existence of the rays depends upon that of the sun, but the converse does not hold true: The sun is the bestower of grace and the rays are the grace itself.”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

There is a clear distinction between the created and the creator.

If you want to use the line of reasoning that something has to come from something else than that same rule applies to your god. So according to YOUR line of reasoning, nothing can exist without something else creating it. So some kind of Super God made your God. Then that means a Ultra Super God made Super God, and so on and so forth. Isn't it a LOT more rational that if something can just exist that the universe is that something that just exists and skip adding in unproven, invisible, supernatural beings into the mix? Especially when there is yet to be even one shred of evidence or a logical argument to support their existence?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you want to use the line of reasoning that something has to come from something else than that same rule applies to your god. So according to YOUR line of reasoning, nothing can exist without something else creating it. So some kind of Super God made your God. Then that means a Ultra Super God made Super God, and so on and so forth. Isn't it a LOT more rational that if something can just exist that the universe is that something that just exists and skip adding in unproven, invisible, supernatural beings into the mix? Especially when there is yet to be even one shred of evidence or a logical argument to support their existence?

No it doesn't because we are speaking about a created entity vs an uncreated entity. An unborn and uncreated entity is in no need of being born as it always was. A created entity on the other hand is temporary, does and needs to be created again. For instance at one time there was no earth and no sun but earths and suns existed elsewhere.

However although various stars and planets and universes were born and died, God always existed as He doesn't compose and decompose because He is eternal and unborn.

This comes from the Buddha and nails it down quite nicely.

There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Simply re-stating your belief does not constitute a rational, logical argument. The universe is not a painting or loaf of bread, it is a naturally existing thing, there is nothing to demonstrate a creator, intelligent or otherwise was involved or needed for anything to occur, ever. You need to provide something more than "the universe exists therefore god (MY specific god no less, not anybody else's)". It is a huge leap you are making. You need to show how you came to your conclusion that the universe had to be created in a rational manner if you want it to mean anything to me. You seem incapable of doing this however.

It is the same whether a loaf of bread or a painting. It is still existence.

You still have failed to produce how these things created themselves without a baker or a painter. It is very relevant because the universe is just another creation.

I have proven beyond doubt that the created has a creator and cannot exist without one yet you have not shown me any evidence even how a piece of bread or a simple painting could come about by itself let alone the entire universe.

A creation is a creation whether it be bread or a painting or a planet and I wonder why I can show these things had to have had a creator but others cannot show how they came about by themselves??

 

[McBell]

How can a quality in the branch not be in the root? If we evolved from a lower species they would have had to possess these qualities to be able to pass them onto us.

Ah, so you are saying tht you know everything your parents knew up to the time of your conceptio?
And everything your grandparents knew up til they time of your parents conception?
And everything your great grandparents knew?
And so on and so on....

You don't?
Then how can your above quoted post be taken seriously?

Only a human foetus can bring forth a human because it is of the same species. A different species cannot bring forth a human because they are of a different species to us.

What are you rambling on about here?
Of course a human fetus will only grow into a human.
Just like a dog fetus only grows into a dog.

 

[McBell]

It is the same whether a loaf of bread or a painting. It is still existence.

You still have failed to produce how these things created themselves without a baker or a painter. It is very relevant because the universe is just another creation.

I have proven beyond doubt that the created has a creator and cannot exist without one yet you have not shown me any evidence even how a piece of bread or a simple painting could come about by itself let alone the entire universe.

A creation is a creation whether it be bread or a painting or a planet and I wonder why I can show these things had to have had a creator but others cannot show how they came about by themselves??

Except you have not shown that the universe was created.
You merely keep repeating the claim over and over.

Defining your god out of existence does not help your "argument" outside the choir.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Except you have not shown that the universe was created.
You merely keep repeating the claim over and over.

Defining your god out of existence does not help your "argument" outside the choir.

The fact that it cannot create itself is a proof it was created just like a chair or a table. Things don't just appear out of nowhere. The universe could not have appeared out of nothing. It had to have been given a kick start by Someone.

If the universe could create then we would be able to combine elements and create human brings as well as have eternal life. We can't. We are subject to laws like sleep, death, hunger and thirst.