Logically, agnosticism is the most rational position

[JustWondering]

Who created the painter? He's not even inside the painting. He's outside it meaning the Painter exists independently of the painting just as God exists independent of creation and He always existed as His Own Entity outside of creation just like the painter exists as an entity outside the painting.

If your god can JUST exist without a creator then the universe can JUST exist without a creator. You have yet to give any reason for why it's plausible for a universe creating being to JUST exist and why universes themselves cannot JUST exist. Until you can make some logical argument to support your position than all you have is empty claims. I could make a similar claim that the universe was created but substitute your god with leprechauns for example. They needed somewhere to keep their gold you see, makes complete logical sense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If this is true, you would be the first person in history to prove there is a god, but you can't, can you ?.

But God can be proven.

Billions of people throughout the world believe in God. To them He's real and exists and proven Himself.

He's proven He exists to them and many of them including myself were avowed atheists once.

 

[psychoslice]

But God can be proven.

Billions of people throughout the world believe in God. To them He's real and exists and proven Himself.

He's proven He exists to them and many of them including myself were avowed atheists once.

Yes to them, but does he really exits, like, wonderful words about god or whoever doesn't mean anything, what you feel in your so called heart means nothing, where is the proof, where ???.

 

[JustWondering]

But God can be proven.

Billions of people throughout the world believe in God. To them He's real and exists and proven Himself.

He's proven He exists to them and many of them including myself were avowed atheists once.

There are people who believe in ghosts, big foot and aliens, so what? Believing in something doesn't make it real.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If your god can JUST exist without a creator then the universe can JUST exist without a creator. You have yet to give any reason for why it's plausible for a universe creating being to JUST exist and why universes themselves cannot JUST exist. Until you can make some logical argument to support your position than all you have is empty claims. I could make a similar claim that the universe was created but substitute your god with leprechauns for example. They needed somewhere to keep their gold you see, makes complete logical sense.

Universes follow strict laws but cannot deviate from them or initiate new laws.

The fact the universe did not create itself proves it has a maker.

 

[JustWondering]

Universes follow strict laws but cannot deviate from them or initiate new laws.

That is just a claim unless you can produce something to back it up and even if you do, it has nothing to do with the existence of universe creating beings.

The fact the universe did not create itself proves it has a maker.

The universe is eternal, has always existed, hence no need for a creator.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are people who believe in ghosts, big foot and aliens, so what? Believing in something doesn't make it real.

That is where their search has taken them so far but it is not the end of their journey. I know that because I've been there. The journey continues on until we become aware of our creator.

Because we were created to know and worship God and will never feel peace until we get back to our roots and purpose in life.

That is why humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief.

People will all find God in time even the most staunch atheist.

There has never been a more staunch atheist and hater of the concept of God than I and now I am absolutely convinced without any doubt whatsoever thanks to Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is just a claim unless you can produce something to back it up and even if you do, it has nothing to do with the existence of universe creating beings.



The universe is eternal, has always existed, hence no need for a creator.

Gravity is not a law? The planets revolving around the sun is just a claim? So protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom just formed themselves like that because they felt like it?

This kind of illogical speculation is more how people talk about whether a horse is going to win a race or not but scientific laws being spoken about as claims? Each to his own.

 

[psychoslice]

Gravity is not a law? The planets revolving around the sun is just a claim? So protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom just formed themselves like that because they felt like it?

This kind of illogical speculation is more how people talk about whether a horse is going to win a race or not but scientific laws being spoken about as claims? Each to his own.

And how the hell do you know that to be TRUE. ?

 

[JustWondering]

That is where their search has taken them so far but it is not the end of their journey. I know that because I've been there. The journey continues on until we become aware of our creator.

Because we were created to know and worship God and will never feel peace until we get back to our roots and purpose in life.

That is why humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief.

People will all find God in time even the most staunch atheist.

There has never been a more staunch atheist and hater of the concept of God than I and now I am absolutely convinced without any doubt whatsoever thanks to Baha'u'llah.

There are plenty of people past and present that lived happy, productive lives that held no belief in your god or any god. If believing in YOUR god concept makes you happy, good for you. Doesn't make it real. Doesn't mean that what works for you will work for anyone else. I'm comfortable with excepting the world for what it is and don't need to believe that some invisible super being is looking out for me.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Gravity is not a law? The planets revolving around the sun is just a claim? So protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom just formed themselves like that because they felt like it?

This kind of illogical speculation is more how people talk about whether a horse is going to win a race or not but scientific laws being spoken about as claims? Each to his own.

You misunderstand the meaning of the term 'law' in this context. In terms of science, law refers to descriptions, not prescriptions. A law is a basic summary of how things have been observed to work and educated guesses made about other things based on those observations, rather than how things must must must work or the Universe falls apart.

 

[JustWondering]

Gravity is not a law? The planets revolving around the sun is just a claim? So protons, neutrons and electrons in an atom just formed themselves like that because they felt like it?

This kind of illogical speculation is more how people talk about whether a horse is going to win a race or not but scientific laws being spoken about as claims? Each to his own.

You are going to have to explain how the universe being eternal is illogical.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes to them, but does he really exits, like, wonderful words about god or whoever doesn't mean anything, what you feel in your so called heart means nothing, where is the proof, where ???.

His Proofs are His Manifestations Their Life, Their Words and Teachings. (Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Christ etc)

Man and creation and nature are other proofs.

 

[psychoslice]

His Proofs are His Manifestations Their Life, Their Words and Teachings. (Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Christ etc)

Man and creation and nature are other proofs.

No!!, sorry that is no proof at all, that is just your imagination.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are going to have to explain how the universe being eternal is illogical.

The universe being eternal is only illogical if there was no creator. As an Eternal Being exists then the universe can also be eternal.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No!!, sorry that is no proof at all, that is just your imagination.

That's the only proof there is.

 

[psychoslice]

That's the only proof there is.

What, you imagination ?.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You misunderstand the meaning of the term 'law' in this context. In terms of science, law refers to descriptions, not prescriptions. A law is a basic summary of how things have been observed to work and educated guesses made about other things based on those observations, rather than how things must must must work or the Universe falls apart.

There are mathematics involved that no man or computer can compute and so astronomically balanced that it's impossible there is not a Supreme Being.

Nothing can of itself creat itself or. Ring itself into existence. A seed is even programmed by 'Someone'. Who?

 

[loverofhumanity]

What, you imagination ?.

The Prophets of God and Their Holy Books.

 

[psychoslice]

The Prophets of God and Their Holy Books.

So, that means nothing, there are many so called Holy books, all saying something different, that all means nothing.