Logically, agnosticism is the most rational position

[crossfire]

<...>
Anyone who is not a theist is an atheist.

Actually anyone who is not a theist is more properly referred to by the more general term of nontheist, rather than by the more specific term of atheist.

 

[Neo Deist]

And there's the twist. Both positions require a belief in deity to start with. The differences begin regarding belief in said deity's active participation in the lives of the created. So deism is a form of theism in the sense it's not a form of atheism.

Reverse it. Theism is a form of deism with added fluff and divine intervention.

 

[Neo Deist]

The first big red flag that your definitions are wrong: the way you use "God-with-a-capital-g" when speaking about theism and deism in the general sense. Not all gods are named "God".

The actual definitions:

Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Deism: belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

Deism (belief in a non-interventionist god) is a subset of theism (belief in a god or gods).

Your "theism" definition is fairly close to the definition of classical monotheism... but classical monotheism is not the be-all and end-all of theism.

Nope.

Theism is a form of deism, not the other way around. Theists take the deistic position (there is a God) and then apply all the divine intervention crap on top of it.

 

[Neo Deist]

Whatever, theist.

You remind me of Adam Sandler in "The Water Boy"...

"Momma said you are either a theist or atheist"
"Momma said deism is a form of theism"
"Momma said not to use a G for god"

Well, momma is wrong again!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Reverse it. Theism is a form of deism with added fluff and divine intervention.

There's no need to reverse it since theism existed before deism. Theism can't be a form of something it preceded. Theism = belief in gods; deism = belief in gods, but.

 

[Neo Deist]

There's no need to reverse it since theism existed before deism. Theism can't be a form of something it preceded. Theism = belief in gods; deism = belief in gods, but.

No, theism is the belief in god(s) with all the extra fluff added to it that organized religions like to make claims about. Divine intervention, divine inspiration, answered prayers, miracles, dogma, sacraments, rituals, etc.

Deism is simply the belief in god(s). Period. No added flufffery. The belief in god(s) came first. The added crap came later.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This definition precludes belief in God who is not "a god," as in one amongst many, but "the one and only god."

No more than "the one and only god", which assumes one actual god amongst possibly many potential gods.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, theism is the belief in god(s) with all the extra fluff added to it that organized religions like to make claims about. Divine intervention, divine inspiration, answered prayers, miracles, dogma, sacraments, rituals, etc.

Deism is simply the belief in god(s). Period. No added flufffery. The belief in god(s) came first. The added crap came later.

Theism is belief in god(s) with or without fluff. Deism is theism with certain fluff stripped away (e.g. miracles, rational justification) and other fluff (i.e. non-interventionism) added.

And since deism was derived from classical monotheism, it would be very hard for deism to have come first.

 

[Neo Deist]

Theism is belief in god(s) with or without fluff. Deism is theism with certain fluff stripped away (e.g. miracles, rational justification) and other fluff (i.e. non-interventionism) added.

And since deism was derived from classical monotheism, it would be very hard for deism to have come first.

Wrong again!

Considering I have a Doctor of Theology degree, I am quite sure what theism means. However, since you seem to be confused, allow me to school you on the term...

Theism [THe, izem - noun]: belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

The term "deism" came about during the Age of Enlightenment, but the belief itself is MUCH older than theism with all of the fluff that encompasses it.

The belief in God came first (deism).
The fluff that built on top of the concept came later (theism).


Your definition is like saying that wooden furniture came before trees.

 

[Willamena]

No more than "the one and only god", which assumes one actual god amongst possibly many potential gods.

For believers in "the only god," there are no "potential gods."

The definition could be more inclusive.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Wrong again!

Considering I have a Doctor of Theology degree, I am quite sure what theism means. However, since you seem to be confused, allow me to school you on the term...

Theism [THe, izem - noun]: belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

The term "deism" came about during the Age of Enlightenment, but the belief itself is MUCH older than theism with all of the fluff that encompasses it.

The belief in God came first (deism).
The fluff that built on top of the concept came later (theism).


Your definition is like saying that wooden furniture came before trees.

If that's the case then why is a lack of belief in gods not called 'adeism'? Also, can you tell us when the first deistic belief system emerged and when the first theistic belief system emerged? You're not restricted to monotheisms here.

 

[Neo Deist]

If that's the case then why is a lack of belief in gods not called 'adeism'? Also, can you tell us when the first deistic belief system emerged and when the first theistic belief system emerged? You're not restricted to monotheisms here.

Because the term only came about a few hundred years ago. The concept itself is much older. That is the difference.

No I can't tell you when the first deistic system emerged as those people that far back did not have written language. Most likely it would be some form of animism or sun/moon worship. That "thing" would be their deity.

God comes before the various dogma and rituals surrounding a deity. People don't come up with those rituals/dogma/tenets just to say "why are we doing this stuff? Oh wait, because there is a god(s)!!!"

 

[loverofhumanity]

In order for that to mean something you first have to actually acknowledge the diversity. Based on our discussions in another thread, you do not have a good track record in doing that.

Diversity is an essential part of existence. Diversity of thought and understanding as well as outward forms is a part of our world. That is a major principle of our beliefs. Maybe I was not clear enough.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I know what you've told me in other threads. I think my conclusion is fair.


That isn't the impression you've left me with.


They read translations of Jewish holy books every week in Christian churches. This doesn't mean that Christians are Jews.


I'm not going to speak to your motivations. I will say, though: if you have kids, I hope you don't instill in them the idea that spending $200 on something necessarily implies respect. Especially at prom.


..

 

[loverofhumanity]

I know what you've told me in other threads. I think my conclusion is fair.


That isn't the impression you've left me with.


They read translations of Jewish holy books every week in Christian churches. This doesn't mean that Christians are Jews.


I'm not going to speak to your motivations. I will say, though: if you have kids, I hope you don't instill in them the idea that spending $200 on something necessarily implies respect. Especially at prom.


You love parts of them. Other parts, not so much. Quran verse 33:40, for instance.

You love parts of them. Other parts, not so much. Quran verse 33:40, for instance.

Sura 33:40 is perhaps the Sura I love the most. Why would I like this passage less? Muhammad indeed is the Prophet of God and Seal of the Prophets.

Seal of the Prophets does not say forever God will not send another Messenger as 39:69 says the exact opposite so by Seal of the Prophets another meaning is intended. But that One is to come after Him is clear in the passage below.

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.[/QUOTE]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For believers in "the only god," there are no "potential gods."

Anyone who uses the phrase "the only god" allows for the potential of other gods.

 

[Neo Deist]

From an older thread:

Deists and panentheists are borderline impossible to argue with...

 

[Deidre]

Knowing if God exists, and believing that He exists, are two different things. Agnosticism resolves the knowing part, but you can actually be a theist, and also agnostic. You can be an atheist, and agnostic. You can be nothing at all, and agnostic. It isn't a position of belief.

 

[Willamena]

Anyone who uses the phrase "the only god" allows for the potential of other gods.

Unless they're sincere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Knowing if God exists, and believing that He exists, are two different things. Agnosticism resolves the knowing part, but you can actually be a theist, and also agnostic. You can be an atheist, and agnostic. You can be nothing at all, and agnostic. It isn't a position of belief.

Logical argument and rational debate are the first steps to knowing God but once one comes to a spiritual perception of His Reality there is no need for logical proofs anymore as it becomes abundantly clear there is God.

Logic and reason are steps along the way to spiritual perception of God. Those who haven't attained to spiritual perception of Him must begin with logical and rational debate to reach that attainment. One can also attain that state through reading the Word of God even if one is an aetheist but still logic and reason must be employed to reach this spiritual state where we just know God exists.