Louisiana becomes first state to require that Ten Commandments be displayed in public classrooms

[metis]

You can be secular and moral but it was made for moral AND religious people.

So, that's a justification for a state or the fed to push (a) religion on everyone? That's called "brainwashing". The FF didn't want that, which is why they put in the Establishment Clause.

 

[Herzlich]

Yes… that is a “standby” reply. People don’t see that it was taken out when the redid that same treaty. There are only two quotable sources for “no religion” and dozens and dozens that say otherwise including “God has given us inalienable rights”.

Which "God?" Do you assume that the word God is only applicable to the Christian God?

 

[Kenny]

Which "God?" Do you assume that the word God is only applicable to the Christian God?

Do you want to move the goal post of context?

 

[Kenny]

So, that's a justification for a state or the fed to push (a) religion on everyone? That's called "brainwashing". The FF didn't want that, which is why they put in the Establishment Clause.

We are talking about posting the 10 commandments… no ‘push religion on everyone’

 

[Kenny]

Wrong. The Constitution was made for all US citizens regardless of religion. You aren't entitled to any special privileges or treatment, regardless of your beliefs. The Supreme Court may temporarily give you some, but things will go back to normal when there is a better balanced Court

I don’t see where this is different from what I have said.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe the historical context is this:

John Jay > Quotes > Quotable Quote​

(?)

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. John Jay First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.”​

― John Jay, Cliffs Notes on The Federalist

Interesting that the original framers of the Constitution called it a Christian nation

And? Thomas Jefferson described himself as the intellectual adversary of the clergy and said it's ok to be an athiest and conclude there is no god. Thomas Paine wrote there is no religion or system of thought more offensive to the Almighty than this "thing called Christianity," which he felt is good at producing fanatics and atheists.
James Madison as well was firmly behind keep the two separated.

 

[Balthazzar]

People should not forget that the US was originally under the Articles of Confederation, which allowed for establishments of religion at the state level. During the years before the federal Constitution was ratified, religious rivalries and inconsistencies disgusted a lot of people who disagreed with state-mandated religious subsidies. It was that backdrop that led to the affirmation of secular government in the first amendment. The Christian majority did not want the government to have anything to do with promoting or advocating for religion. The adoption of the first amendment also made a lot of Christians unhappy who felt that the government should endorse their religious beliefs. This unhappiness has lingered to this day, and that is why the Supreme Court religious majority has been chipping away at the original intent to keep the government from meddling in the religious beliefs of Americans.

It's a good way to apply the terms of policies. Per state has come into question and understanding the basics helps to clarify original intent. As you stated, one was to be no more recognized in policies than the others among the states. The penalties I think are now relevant as I'm sure they were relevant then. There are no laws against adultery, there are no laws against desiring what others have. There are no laws demanding that we worship any God and there are no laws that demand that we don't lie against our neighbors, although there are penalties attached to that one in some cases. I also think it nice that the 10 commandments acknowledge our right not to worship idols of other religions and to respect the upbringing of others from different backgrounds. Of course, our secular laws do address transgressions in this area, specifically child abuse.

 

[fantome profane]

We are talking about posting the 10 commandments… no ‘push religion on everyone’

We are talking about the mandatory posting of the 10 commandments. That is a push. It is the "mandatory" part that makes it a push.

 

[Kenny]

And? Thomas Jefferson described himself as the intellectual adversary of the clergy and said it's ok to be an athiest and conclude there is no god.

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have remover their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Paine wrote there is no religion or system of thought more offensive to the Almighty than this "thing called Christianity," which he felt is good at producing fanatics and atheists.

Yes… Thomas Paine was an exception to the rule.

James Madison as well was firmly behind keep the two separated.

The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.
James Madison

 

[fantome profane]

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have remover their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?

If you force people to believe this, their liberties are gone.

 

[Balthazzar]

And? Thomas Jefferson described himself as the intellectual adversary of the clergy and said it's ok to be an athiest and conclude there is no god. Thomas Paine wrote there is no religion or system of thought more offensive to the Almighty than this "thing called Christianity," which he felt is good at producing fanatics and atheists.
James Madison as well was firmly behind keep the two separated.

I like Paine and Jefferson and Madison. They all make very good points. I can understand how Paine might have viewed many in the Christian religion as nothing being more offensive, but I can also understand Jeffersons intellectual prowess against and for the clergy. Madison agrees with the separation with very good reason and I'll suggest that freedom to practice and to make no laws that respect one religion over another should be honored. It's for these reasons I support Louisiana's decision to include the displays in the schools.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have remover their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
Thomas Jefferson



Yes… Thomas Paine was an exception to the rule.



The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.
James Madison

Thomas Jefferson was anti-Cleric and thought the superstitious stuff and miracles were such a disgrace to the teachings of Jesus that he wrote the "Jefferson Bible" and it has been scrubbed of religion.

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.... During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
-James Madison

The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
-John Adams

 

[Kenny]

If you force people to believe this, their liberties are gone.

Correct.

 

[McBell]

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have remover their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson

This is actually a collection of Jefferson quotes edited together:

Jefferson Memorial Education Series: 97 Words, 5 Primary Sources (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
Thomas Jefferson

This quotation appeared in a handwritten manuscript by the Reverend Ethan Allen (1796-1879). The story was related to Allen by a Mr. Ingle, who claimed to have been told a story that Jefferson was walking to church services one Sunday,​

​

"...with his large red prayer book under his arm when a friend querying him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson. To which he replied to Church Sir. You going to church Mr. J. You do not believe a word in it. Sir said Mr. J. No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."[2]​

The story comes to us third-hand, and has not been confirmed by any references in Jefferson's papers or any other known sources. Its authenticity is questionable.​

​

No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion...(Spurious Quotation)

www.monticello.org

​

 

[Kenny]

Thomas Jefferson was anti-Cleric and thought the superstitious stuff and miracles were such a disgrace to the teachings of Jesus that he wrote the "Jefferson Bible" and it has been scrubbed of religion.

Can’t change his quotes.

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.... During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
-James Madison

This is correct… Religious “BONDAGE” - he wasn’t referring to his faith. Jesus had a problem with the religious.

The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
-John Adams

LOL… Treatise of Tripoli?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

So, that's a justification for a state or the fed to push (a) religion on everyone? That's called "brainwashing". The FF didn't want that, which is why they put in the Establishment Clause.

How is that any different to displaying images of the origins of man from ape to human all around a classroom?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have remover their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
Thomas Jefferson



Yes… Thomas Paine was an exception to the rule.



The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.
James Madison

Also keep in mind in the Declaration and Constitution there is not one specific mention of Christianity or the Bible. Instead we find a phrase more common for deists and pantheists, that being Nature's God, as well as a very generic Almighty that is used by many. We find nothing from the Bible but what we do find is a very obvious plagarism of John Locke. We also find Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion and a prohibition on tests of faith for public office. There is no Father, Son or Holy Ghost anywhere.

 

[McBell]

Can’t change his quotes.

the quotes you presented are at best suspect...

The first one was nothing more than a compilation of quotes edited together for the memorial that specific paragraph you presented was compiled for.

The second quote has not been confirmed.
At all.

 

[Balthazzar]

We are talking about the mandatory posting of the 10 commandments. That is a push. It is the "mandatory" part that makes it a push.

They are pushing it in that State, but not to indoctrinate those who reside there. It's obvious enough that most are in agreement with the displays. They are certainly not pushing this on everyone, but I have noted a larger effort in the states, albeit less agreeable than what the state of Louisiana is pushing.

The secular side of law is likewise more secure in those 10 than what many might acknowledge, but I don't expect you to believe this.

 

[fantome profane]

They are pushing it in that State, but not to indoctrinate those who reside there. It's obvious enough that most are in agreement with the displays.

Pushing religion on a minority is no better than pushing religion on the majority. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion for everyone.