Louisiana becomes first state to require that Ten Commandments be displayed in public classrooms

[SkepticThinker]

A lot of suppositions, interpretive liberties, and opinions here.

And you addressed not one of them.

 

[metis]

One poll we can have is, how many of the 10 Commandment have you broken? If it is more than half, I can understand your concern about a constant reminder of the past and future intent. It might be hard giving up bearing false witness against Trump. What is a Liberal without juicy gossip?

As one who studied and then taught for 25 years a political science course, your post above is frankly dishonest. Since when is stereotyping truthful and moral? My wife and I brought our kids, who all are now in their 50's, that it is morally repugnant, but you post such trash over and over again.

I am an independent, although with the likes of Trump and the MAGA lemmings even that is now quite difficult. I don't want to see our democratic republic turn into a "dictatorship on day 1" as Trump told Hannity. If that doesn't even bother you, then what will?

 

[Kenny]

I've already pointed out to you that that claim doesn't really bear out in reality.

The first 4 commandments are just about how you're supposed to worship god and stroke his ego. We don't have any laws based on any of those.
Honouring your parents isn't a law anywhere that I know of.
There are no laws against coveting your neighbor's manservant and his oxen, that I'm aware of on the books.
Adultery isn't a crime here either.

So what are we left with from the Ten Commandments that would indicate it's the "basis for law?"
Don't murder and don't steal.

Wow, a grand total of 2 of them! And you want us to believe that these 10 commandments are the "basis for law?" How did you come to this conclusion, given that only two of the commandments show up anywhere in any of our laws?

Try giving me an actual answer instead of just trying to slough it off as "religiophobia."

SUPREME COURT CITING COMMANDMENTS IN EARLIER CASES

On at least seven occasions, members of this Court have noted the foundational role of the Ten Commandments in the development of our legal system. See, McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961) (Frankfurter, J.,) (Innumerable civil regulations enforce conduct which harmonizes with religious concerns. State prohibitions of murder, theft and adultery reinforce commands of the decalogue); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 529, n.2 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting) (most criminal prohibitions coincide with the prohibitions contained in the Ten Commandments); Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 45 (1980) (Rehnquist, J. dissenting) (the Ten Commandments, undeniably, have had a significant impact on the development of secular legal codes of the Western World); Lynch, 465 U.S. at 677 (Burger, C.J.) (noting with approval the presence of depiction of Moses and Ten Commandments on Supreme Courts wall); Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 593-94 (1987) (Brennan, J.) (Ten Commandments have played both a secular and religious role in the history of Western Civilization); County of Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 65253 (Stevens, J., with whom Brennan, J., and Marshall, J., join concurring in part, dissenting in part) (carving of Moses with Ten Commandments on wall of Supreme Courts courtroom alongside famous secular lawgivers is a fitting message for a courtroom); City of Elkhart v. Books, 532 U.S. 1058 (2001) (Rehnquist, C. J., with whom Scalia, J. and Thomas, J., join, dissenting from denial of certiorari) (Undeniably, however, the Commandments have secular significance as well, because they have made a substantial contribution to our secular legal codes).

 

[Revoltingest]

SUPREME COURT CITING COMMANDMENTS IN EARLIER CASES

On at least seven occasions, members of this Court have noted the foundational role of the Ten Commandments in the development of our legal system. See, McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961) (Frankfurter, J.,) (Innumerable civil regulations enforce conduct which harmonizes with religious concerns. State prohibitions of murder, theft and adultery reinforce commands of the decalogue); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 529, n.2 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting) (most criminal prohibitions coincide with the prohibitions contained in the Ten Commandments); Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 45 (1980) (Rehnquist, J. dissenting) (the Ten Commandments, undeniably, have had a significant impact on the development of secular legal codes of the Western World); Lynch, 465 U.S. at 677 (Burger, C.J.) (noting with approval the presence of depiction of Moses and Ten Commandments on Supreme Courts wall); Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 593-94 (1987) (Brennan, J.) (Ten Commandments have played both a secular and religious role in the history of Western Civilization); County of Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 65253 (Stevens, J., with whom Brennan, J., and Marshall, J., join concurring in part, dissenting in part) (carving of Moses with Ten Commandments on wall of Supreme Courts courtroom alongside famous secular lawgivers is a fitting message for a courtroom); City of Elkhart v. Books, 532 U.S. 1058 (2001) (Rehnquist, C. J., with whom Scalia, J. and Thomas, J., join, dissenting from denial of certiorari) (Undeniably, however, the Commandments have secular significance as well, because they have made a substantial contribution to our secular legal codes).

What else would we expect from a court comprising
all Christians (with an occasional Jew), eh.
We heathens will continue resisting government
sponsored Christian proselytizing.

Were it really about history, they'd cite all that
Christianity were responsible for, warts & all.
Instead, it's a sanitized version.

Would you address post# 1299?

 

[Kenny]

A summary would be nice.
I ask because Christians tend to believe that
values they like originate from Christianity,
eg, don't murder (popular among most).
But many are not Christian values....they're
much older, more widely shared, & of a
different origin than Christians know.

I'd expect Christians to treat history as....
The good: From Christian belief in the Bible
The bad: From heathens, Satan, science

I’m not sure exactly what you are requesting here so correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Not killing originates from God when Cain murdered Abel… from that point, that principle continues within the proliferation of man’s religions, as a principle that was re-emphasized with the 10 commandments… so, yes, you will find it within a broad scope of religions.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m not sure exactly what you are requesting here so correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Not killing originates from God when Cain murdered Abel… from that point, that principle continues within the proliferation of man’s religions, as a principle that was re-emphasized with the 10 commandments… so, yes, you will find it within a broad scope of religions.

Do you believe that the proscription against murder
wasn't a thing until Christianity or Judaism arrived?
Do you believe that all current morality comes from
the Bible, ie, there was none before?

 

[fantome profane]

Saying "Manifest Dynasty" glosses over how bad that really was and is.

"Manifest Destiny" sounds one way to those who thought they were going to benefit from it, and a very very different way to the victims of "Manifest Destiny".

 

[Kathryn]

Do you have anything to back this up? The reason I ask is because I just now looked at what the religion is of the Louisiana governor is, and according to what I found, he's Roman Catholic. I, myself, was raised Roman Catholic, and when I was religious, I wouldn't have been able to believe that a Roman Catholic governor would ever endorse anything pertaining to religion that is not from the Roman Catholic church.

I have been shouting this from the get go.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

US Law used much of the 10 commandments aa a basis for law.

Then why is Jehovah's 10 and America's 10 fundamentally and inherently incompatible? Why doesn't it actually resemble the 10? Why do we see John Locke amd not scripture?

 

[metis]

SUPREME COURT CITING COMMANDMENTS IN EARLIER CASES

On at least seven occasions, members of this Court have noted the foundational role of the Ten Commandments in the development of our legal system. See, McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961) (Frankfurter, J.,) (Innumerable civil regulations enforce conduct which harmonizes with religious concerns. State prohibitions of murder, theft and adultery reinforce commands of the decalogue); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 529, n.2 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting) (most criminal prohibitions coincide with the prohibitions contained in the Ten Commandments); Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 45 (1980) (Rehnquist, J. dissenting) (the Ten Commandments, undeniably, have had a significant impact on the development of secular legal codes of the Western World); Lynch, 465 U.S. at 677 (Burger, C.J.) (noting with approval the presence of depiction of Moses and Ten Commandments on Supreme Courts wall); Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 593-94 (1987) (Brennan, J.) (Ten Commandments have played both a secular and religious role in the history of Western Civilization); County of Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 65253 (Stevens, J., with whom Brennan, J., and Marshall, J., join concurring in part, dissenting in part) (carving of Moses with Ten Commandments on wall of Supreme Courts courtroom alongside famous secular lawgivers is a fitting message for a courtroom); City of Elkhart v. Books, 532 U.S. 1058 (2001) (Rehnquist, C. J., with whom Scalia, J. and Thomas, J., join, dissenting from denial of certiorari) (Undeniably, however, the Commandments have secular significance as well, because they have made a substantial contribution to our secular legal codes).

No doubt everything is interconnected in some way, but that's not the real issue, which is are we going to have schools jam certain religion(s) down student's throats?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No doubt everything is interconnected in some way, but that's not the real issue, which is are we going to have schools jam certain religion(s) down student's throats?

@Kenny is good with that, because he's in the right religion. He wouldn't want all those other false religions jammed down student's throats.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then why is Jehovah's 10 and America's 10 fundamentally and inherently incompatible? Why doesn't it actually resemble the 10? Why do we see John Locke amd not scripture?

Incompatibility is no problem for them.
The Bible supersedes the Constitution.
This is why they want the 10 Commandments
displayed, but not the Bill Of Rights, or
Constitution.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I’m not sure exactly what you are requesting here so correct me if I am misunderstanding.

Not killing originates from God when Cain murdered Abel… from that point, that principle continues within the proliferation of man’s religions, as a principle that was re-emphasized with the 10 commandments… so, yes, you will find it within a broad scope of religions.

That's a story in a old book. We don't have any evidence that it actually happened that way, or that Cain and Abel ever even existed at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a story in a old book. We don't have any evidence that it actually happened that way, or that Cain and Abel ever even existed at all.

The world is only 10,000 years old.
Before that, there were no people, & there was no morality.
Animals have no morality because they don't read the Bible.
Oh...wait....

Moral behavior in animals

What happens when two monkeys are paid unequally? Fairness, reciprocity, empathy, cooperation -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these...

www.ted.com

Animals Are Moral Creatures, Scientist Argues

Research in neuroscience and animal ecology suggest that animals have a primitive sense of morality

www.livescience.com

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a story in a old book. We don't have any evidence that it actually happened that way, or that Cain and Abel ever even existed at all.

But the Bible gives us great moral advice,
eg, how to treat our slaves.

The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[metis]

That's a story in a old book. We don't have any evidence that it actually happened that way, or that Cain and Abel ever even existed at all.

I tend to believe that this story was likely carried as part of an oral tradition carried on for possibly many generations, thus taking it as literal history is probably a mistake imo.

 

[SkepticThinker]

SUPREME COURT CITING COMMANDMENTS IN EARLIER CASES

On at least seven occasions, members of this Court have noted the foundational role of the Ten Commandments in the development of our legal system. See, McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961) (Frankfurter, J.,) (Innumerable civil regulations enforce conduct which harmonizes with religious concerns. State prohibitions of murder, theft and adultery reinforce commands of the decalogue); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 529, n.2 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting) (most criminal prohibitions coincide with the prohibitions contained in the Ten Commandments); Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 45 (1980) (Rehnquist, J. dissenting) (the Ten Commandments, undeniably, have had a significant impact on the development of secular legal codes of the Western World); Lynch, 465 U.S. at 677 (Burger, C.J.) (noting with approval the presence of depiction of Moses and Ten Commandments on Supreme Courts wall); Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 593-94 (1987) (Brennan, J.) (Ten Commandments have played both a secular and religious role in the history of Western Civilization); County of Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 65253 (Stevens, J., with whom Brennan, J., and Marshall, J., join concurring in part, dissenting in part) (carving of Moses with Ten Commandments on wall of Supreme Courts courtroom alongside famous secular lawgivers is a fitting message for a courtroom); City of Elkhart v. Books, 532 U.S. 1058 (2001) (Rehnquist, C. J., with whom Scalia, J. and Thomas, J., join, dissenting from denial of certiorari) (Undeniably, however, the Commandments have secular significance as well, because they have made a substantial contribution to our secular legal codes).

This was your claim, "If there is an application to US Law from another religion, I think it would have every right to be posted also. If there are Greek applications to US Law… post them. I don’t think erasing historical realities is an answer to anything. We shouldn’t erase the realities of historicity of slavery in the US and we shouldn’t erase reality that US Law used much of the 10 commandments aa a basis for law."


Just looking briefly over your list here, I can see that the ruling on Edwards v. Aguilard was that, "The [Creationism] Act is facially invalid as violative of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, because it lacks a clear secular purpose."
And, "The Act impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind. The legislative history demonstrates that the term "creation science," as contemplated by the state legislature, embraces this religious teaching. The Act's primary purpose was to change the public school science curriculum to provide persuasive advantage to a particular religious doctrine that rejects the factual basis of evolution in its entirety. Thus, the Act is designed either to promote the theory of creation science that embodies a particular religious tenet or to prohibit the teaching of a scientific theory disfavored by certain religious sects. In either case, the Act violates the First Amendment. Pp. 482 U. S. 589-594."

Justice Brennan delivered the opinion which concluded with:

"The Louisiana Creationism Act advances a religious doctrine by requiring either the banishment of the theory of evolution from public school classrooms or the presentation of a religious viewpoint that rejects evolution in its entirety. The act violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment because it seeks to employ the symbolic and financial support of government to achieve a religious purpose. The judgment of the Court of Appeals therefore is

Affirmed."


This decision was upheld by the Supreme Court that the act violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. And you've included this in your list of cases that demonstrate that "much of the 10 commandments [are] the basis for US law." Can you explain why?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I tend to believe that this story was likely carried as part of an oral tradition carried on for possibly many generations, thus taking it as literal history is probably a mistake imo.

I concur.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But the Bible gives us great moral advice,
eg, how to treat our slaves.

The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And how to move into and make friends in a new neighborhood.

Was Israel justified in killing the Canaanites? Archives - Thinking on Scripture

thinkingonscripture.com

 

[Kenny]

Do you believe that the proscription against murder
wasn't a thing until Christianity or Judaism arrived?
Do you believe that all current morality comes from
the Bible, ie, there was none before?

That’s what I just said… it was there with the advent of the slaying of Abel. Morality is the DNA that was there from the beginning. It is man that twists morality.