Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[1213]

...1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

I don’t know who will get the eternal life. I believe I always remember the good things about them. I don’t believe I would forget them in the heaven. And I believe person is destroyed in hell and doesn’t feel anything there.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Still, it is obviously sad, if any person goes to hell. But, I think it is really the choice of that person and what he really wants. And I believe also that it would not be good to give eternal life for unrighteous. That is why I can accept it.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Trailblazer]

I, personally, find it extremely annoying that basically all credit or blame for things is doled out to either God or Satan. It's ridiculous. If it's deemed "bad" it's Satan, and if it is deemed "good", it's God. It is amazing that there aren't more people whose eyes are stuck in a state of constantly rolling back into their heads.

I agree its amazing because (a) there is no being called Satan, and (b) if God exists and is the overseer of all of existence, God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen. I, personally, find it extremely annoying that basically credit is given to God when good things happen but God is never blamed when bad things happen. This is patently illogical.

 

[exchemist]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

You don't know whether they are "saved" or not, so this issue does not arise.

It is ridiculous - not to say arrogant - for anyone to imagine they know the extent of God's mercy.

 

[stvdv]

Thanks for sharing. That is the difference between Abrahamic and Dharmic religions.
We believe in a God who judges us but we also believe that we will reap what we sow so that is kind of like karma.

I like that.

In other words, what we do will come back to hit us in the face.

No doubt about that, both agree on that, that makes conversation much easier

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Sai Baba said this too. He did add that it is possible to become free during this lifetime, but adding "only 1 in a billion succeed" (so 1 handful only)

 

[Suave]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

Nobody deserves eternal torment for having done a finite amount of harm. I would feel sorrow for eternally damned souls

 

[Katzpur]

Is hell really eternal torment or is it actually being cast into the “fire” and ceasing to exist?

That depends upon who you ask, I guess. Most Christians believe in a "lake of fire'; Jehovah's Witnesses believe God will simply cause you to cease to exist. To me, ceasing to exist doesn't hold much more appeal than being cast into hell. At any rate, I don't believe in either of these outcomes, so I guess maybe my opinion is immaterial.

 

[danieldemol]

What I am against is Universal Reconciliation.
Which is the teaching that all end up in heaven.
I'm highly against this idea!
It's a horrible idea to think current ocean polluters could pollute heaven again.

What if you had the power to reform them so that they would no longer pollute, or the power to zap their pollution into water?

 

[blü 2]

Is hell really eternal torment or is it actually being cast into the “fire” and ceasing to exist?

Both claims are asserted in the NT.

 

[thomas t]

What if you had the power to reform them so that they would no longer pollute, or the power to zap their pollution into water?

there is free will in God's creation, I think.
Also free will to effectivly pollute something.

Zapping pollution into water, you say? Maybe God doesn't want to have water lying arounf everywhere?

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

I have never been so happy to say a person was so wrong about anything (not assuming your actual beliefs).

The former things will not be remembered or called to mind. The former people will -but not "in heaven", as such. (The meek shall inherit the Earth -then inhabit "the heavens")

We must consider all scripture together.

Please look up scriptures which contain (might be slightly different in various translations) "saved, yet so as by fire", "even so in Christ shall all be made alive, but every man in his own order", "have their part in the lake of fire", "last enemy that shall be destroyed is death", "able to destroy both body and spirit in the lake of fire".

Though God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit -that is not to say that is what he will do.
God is as refiner's fire -and that is how he will use "hell" (gehenna -lake of fire). Death and "hell" (Hades -the grave) will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed.
(O grave where is the victory?)

Gehenna is to be used as an ultimatum -and a final purification for those who did not respond to other things.

Where one part says, for example, that some will be tormented forever and ever -another scripture might say unless this or that happens. It does not make the other untrue -just not the whole story.

Also... God is not even calling everyone right now -only firstfruits. Many whose works were good will receive life when resurrected to the judgment -even if they had never even heard of God or Christ (it will be easy to believe then!).

 

[danieldemol]

there is free will in God's creation, I think.
Also free will to effectivly pollute something.

Zapping pollution into water, you say? Maybe God doesn't want to have water lying arounf everywhere?

So God could zap it into air, biodegradable fish food, and any other number of scenarios.

None of these would effect free will

 

[thomas t]

So God could zap it into air, biodegradable fish food, and any other number of scenarios.

None of these would effect free will

I don't agree.
If it is not possible to actually pollute something, noone could have the free will to effectively pollute something. For me, real free will refers to real scenarios.

 

[Tiberius]

It sounds as though God would literally wipe the memories of people in heaven so they have no recollection of anyone who is in hell.

That's like something from The Good Place. Or a dystopian nightmare.

And if God wipes our memories, then are we really ourselves anymore? The person that we are now would be dead. So what's the point of heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

And if God wipes our memories, then are we really ourselves anymore? The person that we are now would be dead. So what's the point of heaven.

I do not believe that God wipes out anyone's memories. We may or may not remember the past but I do not believe we will be thinking of the past after we die. I believe that we will have a life review of our life in this world and then we will move on.

Think about it. The person you are now is not your past, it is who you are right now. Likewise, when you cross over into the spiritual world (heaven) you will be exactly who you were at the moment of death, not who you were before that. None of that will matter after you have had your life review. You will move on and continue to progress, but only in a positive direction because there is no retrogression in the spiritual world, only progression.

The point of heaven is to progress and move closer to God, and that will continue for eternity. That is also the point of this world, except that this world is only a very small part of our total existence. Another difference is that we can regress and lose ground in this world, whereas there is no retrogression in the spiritual world. We just keep moving forward.

 

[Tiberius]

I do not believe that God wipes out anyone's memories. We may or may not remember the past but I do not believe we will be thinking of the past after we die. I believe that we will have a life review of our life in this world and then we will move on.

What difference is there between not thinking about the past and having the memories of the past removed?

Think about it. The person you are now is not your past, it is who you are right now. Likewise, when you cross over into the spiritual world (heaven) you will be exactly who you were at the moment of death, not who you were before that. None of that will matter after you have had your life review. You will move on and continue to progress, but only in a positive direction because there is no retrogression in the spiritual world, only progression.

But the person who I am now exists only because of what I have done in my past. If I had made different choice, I would have lived a different life and thus I'd be a different person because different events would have shaped me.

The point of heaven is to progress and move closer to God, and that will continue for eternity. That is also the point of this world, except that this world is only a very small part of our total existence. Another difference is that we can regress and lose ground in this world, whereas there is no retrogression in the spiritual world. We just keep moving forward.

If this world is only a very small part of our existence, why does God use it as the means by which to judge where we go for the rest of our existence?

 

[Trailblazer]

What difference is there between not thinking about the past and having the memories of the past removed?

The difference is that God does not remove our memories, we just won’t care about the past anymore.

But the person who I am now exists only because of what I have done in my past. If I had made different choice, I would have lived a different life and thus I'd be a different person because different events would have shaped me.

That is true, who you are now is the sum total of all your experiences throughout your life, Sure, if you had made different choices and lived a different life you would be a different person now, but the past is gone, so you are who you are now, not who you could have been.

If this world is only a very small part of our existence, why does God use it as the means by which to judge where we go for the rest of our existence?

We have free will to choose and our choices and actions in this life determine who we will become and where we will end up in the next life. Yes, it is relatively short and that is why it is so important not to waste the time we have been given, especially because we have no way of knowing how much time we have left. God could have made our life spans longer but I for one would not want to live any longer in this world than I have to.

 

[Tiberius]

The difference is that God does not remove our memories, we just won’t care about the past anymore.

How delightful. How do you feel knowing that once you are in Heaven you won't give a rat's behind about the people who you love so much today?

That is true, who you are now is the sum total of all your experiences throughout your life, Sure, if you had made different choices and lived a different life you would be a different person now, but the past is gone, so you are who you are now, not who you could have been.

Given that you agree with me, I take it you retract your claim from post 74?

We have free will to choose and our choices and actions in this life determine who we will become and where we will end up in the next life. Yes, it is relatively short and that is why it is so important not to waste the time we have been given, especially because we have no way of knowing how much time we have left. God could have made our life spans longer but I for one would not want to live any longer in this world than I have to.

Do we not have free will in Heaven?

 

[Trailblazer]

How delightful. How do you feel knowing that once you are in Heaven you won't give a rat's behind about the people who you love so much today?

That is not what I meant. I meant that we won’t care about our past, not that we would forget people we knew and loved. And maybe we will remember some of our life on this earth; I just do not think we will dwell upon it.

Given that you agree with me, I take it you retract your claim from post 74?

Agree with you on what? What do you want me to retract?

Do we not have free will in Heaven?

We do not have free will in heaven and that is why it is so important to use it while we can, on this life on earth.
Think about it. If we had free will in heaven we would have a second chance because we could change our minds. And if we had a free will in heaven what we do in this earthly life would not be so important because we would have all of eternity to do it in heaven.

 

[Tiberius]

That is not what I meant. I meant that we won’t care about our past, not that we would forget people we knew and loved. And maybe we will remember some of our life on this earth; I just do not think we will dwell upon it.

But if our loved ones are in our past, and we don't care about our past...

Surely you can see how this seems to suggest that we won't care about our loved ones, right?

Agree with you on what? What do you want me to retract?

I said, "if God wipes our memories, then are we really ourselves anymore? The person that we are now would be dead. So what's the point of heaven."

You replied, "The person you are now is not your past, it is who you are right now. Likewise, when you cross over into the spiritual world (heaven) you will be exactly who you were at the moment of death, not who you were before that."

I responded, "But the person who I am now exists only because of what I have done in my past. If I had made different choice, I would have lived a different life and thus I'd be a different person because different events would have shaped me."

You said, "That is true, who you are now is the sum total of all your experiences throughout your life"

Hence, our past is ALWAYS important, because it continues to affect us at every subsequent point in time. We can never escape its influence on us. Thus we are always a result of our past. You claimed otherwise when you said that the person we are right now is not our past. Since you've agreed with me that our past shapes us, do you retract your claim that we are not our past?

We do not have free will in heaven and that is why it is so important to use it while we can, on this life on earth.
Think about it. If we had free will in heaven we would have a second chance because we could change our minds. And if we had a free will in heaven what we do in this earthly life would not be so important because we would have all of eternity to do it in heaven.

So we must lose our ability to make our own choices in Heaven? I don't want to be a robot with no control over what I do. What's the point of even existing if all you can do is watch stuff happen that you have no control over?

 

[Trailblazer]

But if our loved ones are in our past, and we don't care about our past...
Surely you can see how this seems to suggest that we won't care about our loved ones, right?

No, I do not see that because what I meant is that we won’t care about what we did in the past; I did not say we would not care about other people who we knew in the past

Agree with you on what? What do you want me to retract?

I said, "if God wipes our memories, then are we really ourselves anymore? The person that we are now would be dead. So what's the point of heaven."

You replied, "The person you are now is not your past, it is who you are right now. Likewise, when you cross over into the spiritual world (heaven) you will be exactly who you were at the moment of death, not who you were before that."

I responded, "But the person who I am now exists only because of what I have done in my past. If I had made different choice, I would have lived a different life and thus I'd be a different person because different events would have shaped me."

You said, "That is true, who you are now is the sum total of all your experiences throughout your life"

Hence, our past is ALWAYS important, because it continues to affect us at every subsequent point in time. We can never escape its influence on us. Thus we are always a result of our past. You claimed otherwise when you said that the person we are right now is not our past. Since you've agreed with me that our past shapes us, do you retract your claim that we are not our past?

No, you are thinking of how it is in this life. In this life, our past continues to affect us at every subsequent point in time. We can never escape its influence on us. Thus we are always a result of our past. But the afterlife (heaven) is not the same as this earthly life. There is no past present and future because there is no time as we know it in this world!

Our life in this world shapes us and determines who we will be when we land at the afterlife landing strip, but after we enter the afterlife (heaven) we are no longer influenced by our past life in this world but rather we will start to grow and develop along a new line.

So we must lose our ability to make our own choices in Heaven? I don't want to be a robot with no control over what I do. What's the point of even existing if all you can do is watch stuff happen that you have no control over?

When I said we will have no free will I meant we will no longer be able to make moral choices which is what free will is used for in this world in order for us to become who we are, be it good or evil. I do not think we will be robots with no control over what we do. We just won’t be able to progress the same way we do here, by making moral choices. We will progress by the grace of God, prayers of others and good works done in our name. It will be so different that there is no way we can compare it to our life in this world.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157