Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[truthofscripture]

All,

1. How do you know what "ancient Judaism believed" in the absence of written documents? Psychic powers? I have the Tanach and Talmud, and they both teach afterlife, eternity, eternal judgment, etc. as well as the triunity of God. You cannot sing "Tradition!" and confidently assert pre-Bible Jewish thought unless you have other documents I've never heard of, nor have you heard of!

2. I could do little better than to point to Exodus 3 to explain the reality of the afterlife in the Tanach.

Thanks.

They do NOT teach the triunity of God. That is a pagan teaching and belief. Not a belief of Israel or of Christianity. Christendom, being half pagan, does believe it. They are not Christian, but claim to be.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There are four separate gospels that don't jibe.

Please keep in mind there is basically: one Gospel.
One Gospel account with 4 different writers:
There is the Gospel according to Matthew
There is the Gospel according to Mark
There is the Gospel according to Luke
There is the Gospel according to John
All 4 writers make up one Gospel account of Jesus life which have parallel or corresponding cross-reference verses and passages which ' Jibe ' because they are found backed up in the the Old Hebrew Scriptures.
That is why Jesus could back up and preface his statements with the words, "it is written...... " because it was already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[sojourner]

God told Moses I AM the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The patriarchs had died centuries prior. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Weak. Dead is dead. In his book, The Trouble With Resurrection, Bernard Brandon Scott quotesAlan Segal in Life After Death: "That the Bible lacks a concrete narrative of the afterlife, as we have seen so often manifested in the pagan cultures around it, must, we suspect, not be just accidental or deficient; it must be part of the Biblical polemic against its environment. In contrast to the plethora of different ideas about life after death, in the great river cultures surrounding Israel, early Bible traditions seem uninterested in the notion of an afterlife. Practically every scholar who systematically surveys the oldest sections of the Biblical text is impressed with the lack of a beatific notion of the hereafter for anyone." [emphasis mine] (p. 121)

Scott goes on to say, "The most likely reason for this detail of an afterlife in ancient Israel is the threat such a belief poses to monotheism. The dead were viewed as powerful, almost as gods. Any dealing with the dead and their powers would open the way to the dreaded sin of idolatry." (p.26)

Take a look at Psalm 39: "Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again, before I am no more." The psalm notes that our days are numbered, life is fleeting, and what we sow we may not gather.

This concept of the finality of death is reflected by the notion that only those who are alive on earth can praise God: "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence." (Ps. 115)

 

[sojourner]

Please notice the 2 creation accounts are from 2 different viewpoints:
1) The 1st account describes creation and all in creation - Genesis 1:1 to 2:4.
2) The 2nd account - Genesis 2:5 to 4: 26 concentrates on the creation of the human race and it fall into sin.

The 1st account is constructed chronologically divided into 6 consecutive ' days ' of unknown length.
The 2nd account is written in order of topical importance.

Doesn't Genesis chapter 2 add some details but does Not conflict rather it just takes up at a point in the 3rd day ?
Both accounts deal with all that was created before the 7th ' day ' or time period.

No. They are two different accounts. Notice how God creates both male and female from the dust in the later account (Gen. 1), and creates the female from the rib in the earlier account (Gen 2).

 

[sojourner]

They do NOT teach the triunity of God. That is a pagan teaching and belief. Not a belief of Israel or of Christianity. Christendom, being half pagan, does believe it. They are not Christian, but claim to be.

I call bullspit. Yes, the Trinity is pagan, but there is some sense in the early communities of Anointed-believers that Jesus is Divine. But, then, the idea of the eternal soul is also Pagan in origin. The Judaic idea is that dead is dead.

There is no such thing as a definable difference between "Christianity" and "Christendom." They are The. Same. Thing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The OT, in many places says "dead is dead." The NT says that there is resurrection. These are contradictions that we sweep under the rug through apologetic and interpretation -- but they are there and cannot be textually reconciled. If you think there are no contradictions, it's clear that you're letting belief bias your critical reading. Your "substantial study" may be in the arena of apologetic and not necessarily textual criticism.

All who died before Jesus - John 3:13 - including King David - Acts 2:34 - did Not go to heaven.
That does Not mean they will Not have a resurrection.
The prophet Daniel looked forward to a future earthly resurrection - Daniel 12 vs 2,13
Like the faithful ones of Hebrews chapter 11 they will also have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth starting with Jesus 1000-year kingdom rulership over earth. - Hebrews 11 vs 13,39. They are part of the ' other sheep ' of John 10:16
Whereas those called to heaven, like Jesus, have a resurrection to heaven in a spirit body - 1st Cor. 15:50
They are the ' little flock ' of Luke 12:32
They are also the ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40

We are nearing the coming ' time of separation ' on earth. Those of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 are living humble ' sheep'-like people who can remain alive on earth, and can continue to live on earth, right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill. - Psalm 37 vs 11,29

 

[sojourner]

Please keep in mind there is basically: one Gospel.
One Gospel account with 4 different writers:
There is the Gospel according to Matthew
There is the Gospel according to Mark
There is the Gospel according to Luke
There is the Gospel according to John
All 4 writers make up one Gospel account of Jesus life which have parallel or corresponding cross-reference verses and passages which ' Jibe ' because they are found backed up in the the Old Hebrew Scriptures.
That is why Jesus could back up and preface his statements with the words, "it is written...... " because it was already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

Just because reference is made to hebrew texts doesn't mean that the gospels are each individual accounts. Matthew and Luke use large portions of Mark, but embellish it with their own material, and with shared material from a third source (Q). John is completely different. Each gospel has its own, unique theological spin. One contradiction that may be of interest: In Mark, John the Baptist appears at the beginning of his ministry. In John, he appears much later. And don't try to dismiss this with the untenable supposition that the differing accounts represent "two different times when John was baptizing."

 

[sojourner]

The prophet Daniel looked forward to a future earthly resurrection - Daniel 12 vs 2,13

He's one of the very few, and I've already outlined why that is.

 

[sojourner]

Whereas those called to heaven, like Jesus, have a resurrection to heaven in a spirit body - 1st Cor. 15:50

There is no such concept in much of the Hebrew texts. And to blur the texts into one, giant whole is to treat them dishonestly.

 

[truthofscripture]

Please keep in mind there is basically: one Gospel.
One Gospel account with 4 different writers:
There is the Gospel according to Matthew
There is the Gospel according to Mark
There is the Gospel according to Luke
There is the Gospel according to John
All 4 writers make up one Gospel account of Jesus life which have parallel or corresponding cross-reference verses and passages which ' Jibe ' because they are found backed up in the the Old Hebrew Scriptures.
That is why Jesus could back up and preface his statements with the words, "it is written...... " because it was already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.

Sojourner will never agree with you. That member merely wants to argue and to be contrary.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner will never agree with you. That member merely wants to argue and to be contrary.

I'll never agree with dishonest representations of the texts. Which is the case here. What I "want" is immaterial and none of your business.

 

[truthofscripture]

I'll never agree with dishonest representations of the texts. Which is the case here. What I "want" is immaterial and none of your business.

It is when youy tell untruths, want nothing more than to argue, no matter the issue, and pretend to be debating, when ignoring all the rules of debate.

 

[sojourner]

It is when youy tell untruths, want nothing more than to argue, no matter the issue, and pretend to be debating, when ignoring all the rules of debate.

I like how you've resorted to picking at me through conversation with others. It's a sign that you've been unsuccessful in adequately challenging my arguments.

That's good.

You have yet to show that I've either 1) lied, or 2) ignored any rules of debate. But thanks for the honor of the ad hominem.

 

[truthofscripture]

I like how you've resorted to picking at me through conversation with others. It's a sign that you've been unsuccessful in adequately challenging my arguments.

That's good.

You have yet to show that I've either 1) lied, or 2) ignored any rules of debate. But thanks for the honor of the ad hominem.

You haven't actually posted any arguments, but if you need to tell yourself what you said in that post, to validate yourself, have at it.

 

[sojourner]

You haven't actually posted any arguments, but if you need to tell yourself what you said in that post, to validate yourself, have at it.

 

[shawn001]

Not really.

I have made my decision to love my wife. It doesn't matter where I stand, with options or no options, my decision has been made. The fact that I made my decision here on the earth is sufficient to hold me even when there are no other options.

Additionally, you have an erroneous theological position if you think that we stay "in Heaven" forever. The saints return back to earth and, for that matter, the Heavenly Jerusalem does so also.

And when the sun goes Red Giant in 5 billion years?

 

[shawn001]

the option yes. But now that the heavens are cleansed, those loyal angels no longer have to deal with the rebellious attitudes in their day to day activities like we do. It isn't that these loyal ones can't become disloyal, but they have chosen not to.

The difference is that they do not have a weakness that makes sin inevitable. But then neither did Adam, Eve, nor Jesus. What makes us imperfect is that inherent weakness.

First I have heard of an option to sin in heaven.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Weak. Dead is dead. In his book, The Trouble With Resurrection, Bernard Brandon Scott quotesAlan Segal in Life After Death: "That the Bible lacks a concrete narrative of the afterlife, as we have seen so often manifested in the pagan cultures around it, must, we suspect, not be just accidental or deficient; it must be part of the Biblical polemic against its environment. In contrast to the plethora of different ideas about life after death, in the great river cultures surrounding Israel, early Bible traditions seem uninterested in the notion of an afterlife. Practically every scholar who systematically surveys the oldest sections of the Biblical text is impressed with the lack of a beatific notion of the hereafter for anyone." [emphasis mine] (p. 121)

Scott goes on to say, "The most likely reason for this detail of an afterlife in ancient Israel is the threat such a belief poses to monotheism. The dead were viewed as powerful, almost as gods. Any dealing with the dead and their powers would open the way to the dreaded sin of idolatry." (p.26)

Take a look at Psalm 39: "Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again, before I am no more." The psalm notes that our days are numbered, life is fleeting, and what we sow we may not gather.

This concept of the finality of death is reflected by the notion that only those who are alive on earth can praise God: "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence." (Ps. 115)

Sorry you feel my allusion was weak--it was stated by Jesus Christ to the Pharisees, ending instantly their 120-year debate with the Saducees that the Torah lacked proof of afterlife. In this, the very heart of Judaism, where Moses learns the Name and is commissioned unto the Law, God's very name, I AM, indicates the resurrection of the patriarchs including Abraham, the first Jew. Like I said, "I can hardly do better" and I'll take the living Word of Jesus Christ over Bernard Scott's trouble with his own imminent resurrection unto the judgment of the righteous and the wicked.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God's very name is represented by the Tetragrammaton YHWH

Of the two (2) LORD/Lord's of KJV Psalm 110:1 the LORD in all upper-case letters is where the Tetragrammaton YHWH name appears.
The other Lord (Not in all capital letters ) stands for (Not the Tetragrammaton ) but for the Lord Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

One contradiction that may be of interest: In Mark, John the Baptist appears at the beginning of his ministry. In John, he appears much later. And don't try to dismiss this with the untenable supposition that the differing accounts represent "two different times when John was baptizing."

Contradiction or reading comprehension ?

Where was Jesus located at Mark 1:9 but -> Jordan
Where was Jesus located at Luke 4:1 but -> Jordan
Where were John and Jesus located at Matthew 3: 5 but the country round about ->Jordan
Where were John and Jesus located at John 1 vs 28 to 33 but also around ->Jordan

Whereas John and Jesus are located according to John 3:23 but -> Enon near Salim ( Not Jordan )
Please notice there is nothing mentioned about Jesus being baptized at John chapter 3