Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[sojourner]

Yes, this is all true, but remember that hell, in the times of Jesus, meant "the common grave of mankind", not some place of eternal torment. The scriptures teach this. It is RELIGIONS that teach the lie that it is a place of torment. RELIGIONS teach that we have an immortal soul, NOT THE SCRIPTURES. They teach that soul and life are synonyms. They do NOT TEACH THAT WE HAVE AN IMMORTAL SOUL. They say that the soul that sins, will DIE. They teach that when we are alive and breathing, we are a soul. They do not teach that we have a soul, but that we ARE a soul. But believing is something THAT WE CHOOSE.

Who do you think created the scriptures??? Religions!

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Gehenna represents TOTAL DESTRUCTION, not hell (the common grave of mankind). The scriptures clearly teach that we do not have a separate soul that survives death. that is a teaching of false religion, and the teaching is false. Hell, hades, and sheol ALL mean the "common grave of mankind" and the scriptures are very clear on this also. God said that he never even thought of tormenting anyone, ever. He is a God of love, not torture. There is no three headed triune or trinity. The scriptures also teach clearly that God is without beginning or end, but Jesus was CREATED by God. In fact it says that Jesus, God's son, is the "first born of all creation", not God. God cannot be His own son, His own father, didn't create Himself, didn't send Himself, didn't pray to Himself, isn't greater than Himself, or any of the other teachings of false religion. Galations 5:19-21 lists works of the flesh, and included in that list is sects. Catholicism is a sect, a denomination, it is not the original Christianity that Jesus taught. He created no church or religion, but the one true faith as he called it. Once again, no soul leaves any body. Soul means life, not a separate part of us. You've been deceived by Satan, as he is "deceiving the entire inhabited Earth. Remember that Constantine, a PAGAN emperor created the Roman Church (and 70 years later it became the Roman Catholic Church). It is half pagan and half Christian. Anything with even the teeny tiniest pagan aspect to it is an abomination to God. It is unclean, and it is false. Revelation says to "flee from her". It is to the scriptures alone we must adhere and study, not the teachings of ANY religion created by man.

You’re right about one thing. Satan is deceiving many. The question is, who has been believing the father of lies? Pray for understanding. Pray that the evil one may no longer deceive you.

 

[truthofscripture]

This is not in any way cogent to my point. Christianity and Christendom are the same thing. Regardless of what the writer of Matthew has Jesus say about wheat and weeds.

No, they are NOT the same thing. Christendom is ALL religions with churches and clergy that claim they are Christian. Christianity is what Jesus taught. The difference is like night and day. Christendom is half pagan, Christianity has NOTHING pagan within it. Sects are works of the flesh. They are sections, poor copies of Christianity. Involvement in them means a judgement of destruction.

 

[sojourner]

No, they are NOT the same thing. Christendom is ALL religions with churches and clergy that claim they are Christian. Christianity is what Jesus taught. The difference is like night and day. Christendom is half pagan, Christianity has NOTHING pagan within it. Sects are works of the flesh. They are sections, poor copies of Christianity. Involvement in them means a judgement of destruction.

Pietism is old and tired, and not up to the task -- never has been. You need to find a new hobby other than church-bashing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I was an evangelical for a few years (not raised, but a convert), but after I stopped believing in biblical inerrancy, I bounced around some more liberal denominations for a while. I got the impression that belief in an actual hell is really a minority view. If it seems otherwise, it's just because those Christians who do believe in it are more aggressive in promoting their faith than ones who have a more sensible view of God.

Belief in Hell is a minority view, a fundamentalist view. Even the RCC says you can be wicked and escape via indulgences and/or purgatory.

But know who else does not believe in Hell: JWs, Mormons, all kinds of cultists/other religions. The company we keep! Be careful!

 

[NulliuSINverba]

... it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell.

It's tough love. Ahem.

 

[truthofscripture]

Pietism is old and tired, and not up to the task -- never has been. You need to find a new hobby other than church-bashing.

Stating what the scriptures teach is NOT church bashing. You've never wondered why all churches continuously ask for money, why they ALL teach something different from ALL OTHER religions, and why most don't teach any more than bits and pieces of scripture? If any of their members knew the entirety of the scriptures, no one would ever be part of any formal man made religion. The scriptures destroy the teachings of all religions. if anyone is doing any "bashing", it would be you, bashing the teachings of the scriptures.

 

[sojourner]

Stating what the scriptures teach is NOT church bashing.

No, but stating that a church is not "true" based on some subjective and unsubstantial argument is.

You've never wondered why all churches continuously ask for money,

No; this is a money-based society. Even Judas kept the funds for the disciples...

why they ALL teach something different from ALL OTHER religions,

The church is like a diamond -- many-faceted. Of course they all approach God from a unique perspective.

why most don't teach any more than bits and pieces of scripture?

I disagree. At least the major denominations teach great portions of the bible. I'd be willing to bet that many of the minor ones do too.

If any of their members knew the entirety of the scriptures, no one would ever be part of any formal man made religion.

I know many people who are quite biblically literate. They are all part of major denominations. Many are clergy.

The scriptures destroy the teachings of all religions.

Perhaps that's your unique understanding of them. But, sadly for you, the scriptures don't do that at all.

if anyone is doing any "bashing", it would be you, bashing the teachings of the scriptures.

I haven't done any bashing of the texts, that I'm aware of -- only of your biased and unsubstantiated ramblings upon them.

 

[Unification]

1) Paul didn't write Colossians.
2) The authenticity of the books lies in their acceptance by the church. We simply don't know who wrote any of the OT, the gospels, and some of the letters, because the works are not signed. Paul wrote some of the letters, and John of Patmos wrote Revelation. We do have some approximate dates, for example, 1 Thess. was written 48-50. Galatians around 50. Mark just post-70. Matthew and Luke sometime between 80 and 95. John 90 to just after 100.

It's also backwards to try to fit Christian thought into the Judaic mode. Christian thought isn't particularly rooted in Judaic thought.

Christian thought and Judaic thought are both the same, both looking for an external God/savior/messiah when it's all within and internal.
A bunch of subjective religions worldwide yet one objective truth.
I suppose Christianity and Judaism both created their very own outward religions.

 

[sojourner]

Christian thought and Judaic thought are both the same, both looking for an external God/savior/messiah when it's all within and internal.

That's a gross oversimplification -- and a misapprehension. Both religions are highly relational. Both give credence to the aspect of God as Other. Yet, I know that Christianity (and I suspect Judaism) also recognize the inner Divinity. It's not "all within." It's just not that one-dimensional.

 

[Unification]

That's a gross oversimplification -- and a misapprehension. Both religions are highly relational. Both give credence to the aspect of God as Other. Yet, I know that Christianity (and I suspect Judaism) also recognize the inner Divinity. It's not "all within." It's just not that one-dimensional.

Everything we all have in common is within.

 

[truthofscripture]

No, but stating that a church is not "true" based on some subjective and unsubstantial argument is.

No; this is a money-based society. Even Judas kept the funds for the disciples...

The church is like a diamond -- many-faceted. Of course they all approach God from a unique perspective.

I disagree. At least the major denominations teach great portions of the bible. I'd be willing to bet that many of the minor ones do too.

I know many people who are quite biblically literate. They are all part of major denominations. Many are clergy.

Perhaps that's your unique understanding of them. But, sadly for you, the scriptures don't do that at all.

I haven't done any bashing of the texts, that I'm aware of -- only of your biased and unsubstantiated ramblings upon them.

Saying that a religion is false, I never said true, is from the scriptures, it's not based on some subjective and unsubstantiated argument. Galations says all sects are "works of the flesh". Revelation says they will all be destroyed in the final battle. Your argument is false.

Churches all teach something other than the scriptures, therefore their teachings are false.

Teaching "great portions" of the Bible isn't good enough. They should teach ALL of the Bible. Every bit of it.

I know many who claim to be Biblically literate also, but sadly, they are not. They read it, but don't study it and don't compare scripture to scripture. They don't search the scrolls and original texts to see if their Bible is accurately translated. Accurate translation is CRUCIAL.

The scriptures DO destroy the dogma and traditions and practices of most all so called Christian religions. Religions teach their own "take" on the scriptures, not God's take on them.

None of your arguments are anything but you being argumentative. I am pretty certain that you've spent NO time searching the scriptures to even see if what I posted is true. That's one of the problems with people from religions. They just don't care.

 

[Katzpur]

Belief in Hell is a minority view, a fundamentalist view. Even the RCC says you can be wicked and escape via indulgences and/or purgatory.

But know who else does not believe in Hell: JWs, Mormons, all kinds of cultists/other religions. The company we keep! Be careful!

Actually, Mormonism does believe in Hell, but not as envisioned by most Protestant Churches.

 

[sojourner]

Everything we all have in common is within.

So... differences aren't notable?? Or needed??

 

[sojourner]

Saying that a religion is false, I never said true, is from the scriptures, it's not based on some subjective and unsubstantiated argument. Galations says all sects are "works of the flesh". Revelation says they will all be destroyed in the final battle. Your argument is false.

No, it's based on your biased and unsubstantiated interpretation of the texts - not the texts, themselves.

Churches all teach something other than the scriptures, therefore their teachings are false.

"Extra biblical" =/= "false." The whole NT was "extra biblical" in the beginning.

Teaching "great portions" of the Bible isn't good enough. They should teach ALL of the Bible. Every bit of it.

Should they teach Esdras, Maccabees, Thomas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, etc? Or just the ones you think are "all" the bible?

I know many who claim to be Biblically literate also, but sadly, they are not.

Sucks to be them, I suppose.

They read it, but don't study it and don't compare scripture to scripture.

Hmm... the people I know do that...

They don't search the scrolls and original texts to see if their Bible is accurately translated. Accurate translation is CRUCIAL.

The people I know have forgotten more about the "original" texts than you will ever learn.

The scriptures DO destroy the dogma and traditions and practices of most all so called Christian religions.

Nope. They don't.

Religions teach their own "take" on the scriptures, not God's take on them.

There is no "God's take."

None of your arguments are anything but you being argumentative.

None of your arguments are anything but you being argumentative.

I am pretty certain that you've spent NO time searching the scriptures to even see if what I posted is true.

I'm pretty certain I know the bible well enough to not have to double-check your mistakes concerning it.

That's one of the problems with people from religions. They just don't care.

A patently untrue overgeneralization.

 

[truthofscripture]

Actually, Mormonism does believe in Hell, but not as envisioned by most Protestant Churches.

The scriptures teach that hell is the common grave of mankind, not a place of eternal torture as religions falsely teach. It is synonymous with both hades and sheol.

 

[Katzpur]

The scriptures teach that hell is the common grave of mankind, not a place of eternal torture as religions falsely teach. It is synonymous with both hades and sheol.

That's what I believe, too.

 

[sojourner]

The scriptures teach that hell is the common grave of mankind, not a place of eternal torture as religions falsely teach. It is synonymous with both hades and sheol.

Except the Judaic Sheol is a completely different concept from the Pagan Hades. The concepts of each must be compromised in order to come up with "hell."

 

[truthofscripture]

Except the Judaic Sheol is a completely different concept from the Pagan Hades. The concepts of each must be compromised in order to come up with "hell."

As far as the scriptures are concerned, hades, sheol, and hell ALL mean common grave of mankind.

 

[sojourner]

As far as the scriptures are concerned, hades, sheol, and hell ALL mean common grave of mankind.

"The scriptures" have no concern of their own. They only reflect the concern of those who wrote them. The Hebrew Sheol is rendered Hades in the LXX, because it is the closest Greek equivalent. But the two words conceptualize "the place of the dead" differently. While the Hebrews were rather indifferent with regard to Sheol, the Greeks were superstitious and repulsed by the though of Hades, which, BTW, wasn't originally the name of the place, but the name of the god of the underworld, whom the Greeks despised. While all dead people were gathered in Sheol, Hades was divided into a dismal place for bad people and a garden for good or heroic people. The commonality shared by the two terms is one of language rendering only -- not of concept.

The concept of hell is an amalgam of the Pagan underworld and the place known in Hebrew as Gehenna -- the "valley of the son of Hinnom" -- a place outside Jerusalem where apostate Jews and followers of other gods sacrificed their children by fire. The place was considered to be cursed ground, and was metaphorically used as the destination for the damned.

The problem is that you're trying to force Judaic concepts into a largely Greek cultural phenomenon (the NT). You're wanting to believe that "original Xy" is fully Judaic in concept. It is not. Yes, Jesus was a Jew. But the Movement very, very quickly (before it was even settled and organized as a "Movement") spread outward and became a Greek phenomenon. So the idea you're pushing here that there is some "original, pure Xy that Jesus taught" is bogus, since the only teachings of Jesus we have are interwoven heavily with Greek influence. The rather Pollyanaish "original Xy" you describe simply doesn't exist.