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Loving God = Eternal Torture?

truthofscripture

Active Member
"The scriptures" have no concern of their own. They only reflect the concern of those who wrote them. The Hebrew Sheol is rendered Hades in the LXX, because it is the closest Greek equivalent. But the two words conceptualize "the place of the dead" differently. While the Hebrews were rather indifferent with regard to Sheol, the Greeks were superstitious and repulsed by the though of Hades, which, BTW, wasn't originally the name of the place, but the name of the god of the underworld, whom the Greeks despised. While all dead people were gathered in Sheol, Hades was divided into a dismal place for bad people and a garden for good or heroic people. The commonality shared by the two terms is one of language rendering only -- not of concept.

The concept of hell is an amalgam of the Pagan underworld and the place known in Hebrew as Gehenna -- the "valley of the son of Hinnom" -- a place outside Jerusalem where apostate Jews and followers of other gods sacrificed their children by fire. The place was considered to be cursed ground, and was metaphorically used as the destination for the damned.

The problem is that you're trying to force Judaic concepts into a largely Greek cultural phenomenon (the NT). You're wanting to believe that "original Xy" is fully Judaic in concept. It is not. Yes, Jesus was a Jew. But the Movement very, very quickly (before it was even settled and organized as a "Movement") spread outward and became a Greek phenomenon. So the idea you're pushing here that there is some "original, pure Xy that Jesus taught" is bogus, since the only teachings of Jesus we have are interwoven heavily with Greek influence. The rather Pollyanaish "original Xy" you describe simply doesn't exist.
No, they only concern the author, who is Jehovah, and those who study them. Hell, as far as the first century CHRISTIANS are concerned, and God, who authored the scriptures, is the common grave of mankind. No other meaning is applied to it. As far as God and the Christians are concerned, hades and sheol also refer only to the common grave of mankind. Christianity is now and was then what Jesus brought and taught to us, from his father, Jehovah. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No, they only concern the author, who is Jehovah,
The bible didn't fall out of the sky. It was written by people, some of whom we know, namely, Paul. Unless you're asserting here that Paul is God.
and those who study them.
I study them...
Hell, as far as the first century CHRISTIANS are concerned, and God, who authored the scriptures, is the common grave of mankind.
Nope. It was that, as far as the first century, Jewish Christians are concerned. There were first century Greek Christians, for whom the concept of hell had a different connotation.
No other meaning is applied to it.
...as far as you're concerned. But your grasp of church history is so skewed, I'm not convinced that your concerns have any basis in reality.
Christianity is now and was then what Jesus brought and taught to us, from his father, Jehovah. Nothing more, nothing less.
That Christianity died with Jesus, I'm afraid. It quickly became a living, continuing, growing faith, whose tenets were not isolationist (as were those of the Judaic faith), but inserted themselves gracefully into and embraced other cultures.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
The bible didn't fall out of the sky. It was written by people, some of whom we know, namely, Paul. Unless you're asserting here that Paul is God.

I study them...

Nope. It was that, as far as the first century, Jewish Christians are concerned. There were first century Greek Christians, for whom the concept of hell had a different connotation.

...as far as you're concerned. But your grasp of church history is so skewed, I'm not convinced that your concerns have any basis in reality.

That Christianity died with Jesus, I'm afraid. It quickly became a living, continuing, growing faith, whose tenets were not isolationist (as were those of the Judaic faith), but inserted themselves gracefully into and embraced other cultures.
If you actually studied the scriptures, you would not contradict them, as in your last post.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If you actually studied the scriptures
AAAAAAAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! <falls in floor, beats fists, kicks, holds sides, weeps, gasps for breath>
Formally "Studying the scriptures" is what I've done for the last 30 years. I've exegeted the crap out of the texts. I've written stacks of scholastic papers, and been invited to publish. I've learned enough to know 2 things: 1) I don't know nearly as much as the professional scholars do and 2) based on what I've read here, I know more than you're capable of assessing.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
AAAAAAAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! <falls in floor, beats fists, kicks, holds sides, weeps, gasps for breath>
Formally "Studying the scriptures" is what I've done for the last 30 years. I've exegeted the crap out of the texts. I've written stacks of scholastic papers, and been invited to publish. I've learned enough to know 2 things: 1) I don't know nearly as much as the professional scholars do and 2) based on what I've read here, I know more than you're capable of assessing.
Your studies involve the teachings of RELIGION. Mine involve the teachings of the SCRIPTURES. There is quite a big difference.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You are once again, WRONG on both accounts. Do you just grab things out of thin air to post replies with? It appears so.
You don't know what mine entailed, so I don't see how you can be so sure I'm "wrong" about it; I was there, you were not. Do you just grab things out of thin air to post replies with? It appears so.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
You don't know what mine entailed, so I don't see how you can be so sure I'm "wrong" about it; I was there, you were not. Do you just grab things out of thin air to post replies with? It appears so.
What I believe your training and studying entailed is evident from the posts you make.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Actually, quite the reverse is true. Your posts indicate a firm foundation in RELIGION, not the word of God.
According to whom? You? What are your credentials for being such an expert in one's spiritual disposition?

The word of God is part of religion. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
According to what the scriptures say.
So... the scriptures tell you: "Sojourner's foundation is in religion???" Really?! Wow! I had no idea I was in the bible!

Or do the scriptures say something else, and you're simply <gasp!> interpreting them to pertain to me?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How about you tell me what your experience has been. Then I can correct your misconceptions as I see them.

My experience of Mormons, to be honest, is when I quote the Book of Mormon or their website or official Mormon doctrine or Pearl of Great Price, etc. they go "No! Not true!" so I'd again welcome your comments, first.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
My experience of Mormons, to be honest, is when I quote the Book of Mormon or their website or official Mormon doctrine or Pearl of Great Price, etc. they go "No! Not true!" so I'd again welcome your comments, first.
I'm honestly surprised that when you quote an official source, particularly a canonical one, you get comments like that. Are you sure you're not just paraphrasing and maybe doing so inaccurately?

Okay, the Mormon belief in Hell...

We believe that when a person dies, his spirit leaves his body but does not itself die or cease to exist. Rather, it continues to live as a cognizant entity, entirely able to reason, understand and make choices. We do not believe that anyone's spirit goes directly to Heaven immediately upon death. Instead we believe that it resides in an intermediate realm where it can continue to learn and grow until the time that Jesus Christ returns to begin His Millennial Reign and we are called to stand before God in the Last Judgment. For those who have lived righteously and who have accepted Christ and His gospel, this period of time can be likened to Paradise -- the place Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to him on the cross He would see him later that day. It will be a state of rest and joy. For the unrepentant wicked and for those who lived their entire lives never having heard of Jesus Christ, this will not be the case. They will find themselves in "Prison" -- the same place Jesus visited in spirit form during the time His body lay in the tomb. They will be tortured by the memory of their sins and by the knowledge that they must ultimately be held accountable for them. This is one use of the word "Hell" in Mormon thought. It will be an agonizing wait for these spirits.

We believe, however, that God, in His mercy, has provided a means by which those who did not have the opportunity to hear the Savior's gospel during their lives and therefore could not have been expected to accept it can hear it during the period of time in between their death and their resurrection. Believers in the state of Paradise will be proclaiming the gospel to those who are suffering in Prison/Hell. Some will reject their message, but many, having a real desire to know the truth, will hear the gospel, feel genuine remorse for their sins, and accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their part. When they do this, they will be released from Prison/Hell and will be allowed to join those in Paradise to await with gratitude and joy the resurrection of their bodies.

There is one other use of the word "Hell" in Mormonism. Generally, though, we do not use the word Hell in this case, but the phrase, "Outer Darkness." There are a very few souls whom we believe will conscientiously deny Christ, even though the Holy Ghost testifies clearly to them who He is and what He has done for them. These individuals want no part of God or of Heaven and instead would actually prefer to be with the devil forever. These will not go to Heaven, but will be denied God's presence entirely. After they are judged, they will live eternally apart from God in "Outer Darkness." Certainly, Outer Darkness will be Hell, but we don't believe in a literal Lake of Fire.
 
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