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Loving God = Eternal Torture?
- Thread starter Triumphant_Loser
- Start date
God did form man from dirt. He used dirt to show us that He could form man from anything. He fashioned Him in his own image and likeness and he blew the Spirit into Adam (Pneuma the soul). Adam and Eve were Spirits united in a human body; as we are. The Body is a Sacrament and to understand the body as a Sacrament it simply means to make visible of the invisible. As pure Spirit we can not see God . Yet as Christians we believe that the invisible God has made himself visible in the body of Jesus. Adam was tempted by Eve who was fashioned from Adams Side making her Wo Man (part of man).. They together were placed in paradise which was a special place on Earth. Not heaven. It was to be Adam and Eve's to control and take care of forever. Yet it indicates that they were not suppose to work or anything like that. Adam and Eve were very happy and so into God that they hadn't lusted for each other because they were in total unity with God that Eros and Agape were totally together. Eros when it was given was meant to express - Divine Love. Then and in the beginning Adam and Eve's love formed one unit. God's plan for the body is union, communion, marriage and this brings life. Satan's counter plan for the body is separation, fracture, divorce this brings death. Their love and desire for each other caused them to be one with and for each other. They lived, loved and would die for each other; there was no lust, hate, or envy. They didn't even know they were naked until they sinned. They were completely innocent until the Serpent placed the sinful thought in their minds The Serpent convinced them that God was holding back something and that if they ate of the tree of knowledge then they would know as much as God did. Their Sin was not trusting that God knew what He was doing. He might have later allowed them to partake in the fruit but he had told them at that time this was off limits. Their sin was not just eating the fruit and not trusting in Him; but also believing that they could be like God. They were cast out of the Garden and then had to fin for themselves so to speak. Cain became a farmer and toiled the land and Able was a shepherd and took care of the flock. Able was to be slain by Cain and become the first Sacrifice. Later human sacrifices became rampant in some nomadic groups. Eventually banned and animal sacrifices became the normal ritual for the Jewish Sacrifice which took place in the Temple of Jerusalem. Perhaps a Foretelling of what was to come.
lostsoul62
New Member
Eileen: What does that have anything to do with what I said. Just Google Christian Religion and it will tell you the only way to go to heaven is to believe in Jesus. You can't get to heaven by being nice only by believing in Jesus. You can be a dirt bag and right before you die give yourself over to Jesus and you will go to heaven. For me that is a little hard to swallow.
soma
John Kuykendall
People who don't know God or themselves use hell and eternal damnation to sell their religion. The Christian God is the same God that all the religions talk about, infinity. We and everything is in infinity.................................in-finite so if we look within ourselves, the finite we will find infinity. We can't grasp the infinite because it is beyond our mind, but we can merge with it.
http://thinkunity.com
http://thinkunity.com
What did you say that I have responded to? I have looked back over this thread and do not see anywhere that I have replied to anything you said-maybe I have missed it.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
That would be hard for me to swallow too. Deathbed conversions as being valid is another belief that was used to promote the Inquisitions. Torture a confession out of the people so that they won't be tortured forever in hell - after they die from the torture or are killed right after the confession.
Godly Sadness is defined by 6 things. There is no time at one's deathbed to demonstrate all 6 things. If such a person gets a resurrection it will be as one of the unrighteous, not as one of the righteous. (Act 24:15)
What are those 6 things?
"For sadness in a godly way produces repentance leading to salvation, leaving no regret; but sadness of the world produces death. For see what a great earnestness your being saddened in a godly way produced in you, yes, clearing of yourselves, yes, indignation, yes, fear, yes, earnest desire, yes, zeal, yes, righting the wrong! In every respect you demonstrated yourselves to be pure (or "chaste; innocent.") in this matter." - 2 Corinthians 7:10,11
Hell is obviously a state of mind, not a place. Inevitably, religion conditions the soul to desire not. Desire will also always burn. Hence, hell. However, I agree with skwim on this, and also that hell is temporary. Atleast until the desire burns into Ashe. Sin is never committed unless there's desire present. Incoming.. Buddhism.
we-live-now
Active Member
I am with you.
The teaching of "Hell as an eternal punishment" is a complete lie. Scripture actually destroys it totally.
I have written about this before and sorry but I am being lazy and don't want to type it out again. Here are a couple links:
Preordained to be destroyed by Fire?
Is God REALLY "love"?
Here is what I am convinced of and I study scripture for sometimes upwards of 8-12 hours a day. (No, I don't have a "life" like some would say but what I learn from scripture directly is constantly blowing me away in a GOOD way and proving most of the doctrines and beliefs "Christianity" as false.)
We are in "hell" now in "Ghenna" in a spiritually DEAD body. Someone was kind enough to mention this above.
Gehenna. The Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, southwest of ancient Jerusalem. (Jer 7:31) It was prophetically spoken of as a place where dead bodies would be strewn.
Our CURRENT body and THIS current Earth is spiritually dead. It is a prison of disobedience (Romans 11:32) under law (which means death for it). But, here is the GREAT news in a "nutshell".
ALL OF US will be "salted" or PURIFIED with God's HOLY Fire! See Mark 9:49.
For everyone will be salted with fire Mark 9:49
God's HOLY, cleansing and PURIFYING Fire is what he calls "being devoured". It is what will CAUSE all of us at the proper time and age to be fully refined and fully transformed into our true and ETERNAL spiritual beings. Btw, did you know that the Greek word for "fire" as in "Lake of FIRE" or "salted with FIRE" is the word "Pur" which is where we get the English words "purify" and "purity" from.
Check it out: Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire
God truly does LOVE all people and he will FULLY cleans and purify all people. We all will LIVE forever with him as we are his family. This is so good my friend.
Check out these verses. There are hundreds more like them.
“Therefore wait for Me,” declares the Lord,
“For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
9 “For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of the Lord,
To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.
10 “From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
My worshipers, My dispersed ones,
Will bring My offerings.
11 “In that day you will feel no shame
Because of all your deeds
By which you have rebelled against Me;
For then I will remove from your midst
Your proud, exulting ones,
And you will never again be haughty
On My holy mountain Zephaniah 3:8-11
God is NOT angry at us. He is angry at the darkness that is in our natural bodies and the spiritual powers behind them. These keep us under law and "works of the flesh" trying to obtain our own righteousness and salvation. When he appears, he will severely "discipline" them and "wash us all up".
“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap Malachi 3:2
Now, we can also understand why he often talks of "refining Gold" or "purifying silver" in the Old Testament.
The spiritually DEAD bodies we are in are actually part of the sacrifice. Romans 12:2 It's our "contribution" to his death.
always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body 2 Cor 4:10
Friend, don't give up on God or truth. I suspect it is religious works that you grew tired of. If that was the case, then me too.
Jonathan Sherman
New Member
Very good question. Although I don't have a Christian answer for you, I have a jewish one. In Judaism, the concept of Hell is very different. It is not a place of eternal punishment and torture, but rather, it's only temporary and meant to clean the soul from the sins and evil and stuff like that. I'm not a wise rabbi, but this is the simple answer.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
I find the most interesting aspect of this subject to be the fact that each of us is less than 120 or so years old -yet our thoughts are toward how a proper God should act.
In addition to the inevitability of mistakes and the need for experience, consider how our present experience draws out of us greatness -creates a vacuum for what should be (at least in those whose mind is turned to such)...
an extreme collective force that screams "THIS IS NOT RIGHT" -and, ideally, a strong motivation to make things right (even if none of us yet knows completely what is right).
Why? Because God's ultimate intent is not that we be perfectly blissful and ignorant humans, but that we become gods.
God is ultimately responsible for all that has been, but not guilty. When the ways of men create terrible situations, we can become angry at God.
He could not have asked us if we wanted to be created -nor could he have created us perfect and incorruptible.
It may seem that God has created a terrible situation -but that is only temporarily so.
He declared the end from the beginning -and in the the end we are perfect, incorruptible and happy.
God is equal -all matters will be righteously resolved.
In the end, he knows that there will be every reason to appreciate having been created, no reason to not appreciate it, no wrong that can not be righted -and that we will then be perfectly incorruptible.
The bible can seem to say many things which it truly does not -partly due to our present understanding, partly due to imperfect language,
and partly because God purposefully conceals certain truths until they should be known.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken....
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
Many hear this or that about the bible -or skim through, take one or more verses without an in-depth study... get the wrong idea... resulting in the following....
Isa_28:13 .............................that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Jas_1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
In addition to the inevitability of mistakes and the need for experience, consider how our present experience draws out of us greatness -creates a vacuum for what should be (at least in those whose mind is turned to such)...
an extreme collective force that screams "THIS IS NOT RIGHT" -and, ideally, a strong motivation to make things right (even if none of us yet knows completely what is right).
Why? Because God's ultimate intent is not that we be perfectly blissful and ignorant humans, but that we become gods.
God is ultimately responsible for all that has been, but not guilty. When the ways of men create terrible situations, we can become angry at God.
He could not have asked us if we wanted to be created -nor could he have created us perfect and incorruptible.
It may seem that God has created a terrible situation -but that is only temporarily so.
He declared the end from the beginning -and in the the end we are perfect, incorruptible and happy.
God is equal -all matters will be righteously resolved.
In the end, he knows that there will be every reason to appreciate having been created, no reason to not appreciate it, no wrong that can not be righted -and that we will then be perfectly incorruptible.
The bible can seem to say many things which it truly does not -partly due to our present understanding, partly due to imperfect language,
and partly because God purposefully conceals certain truths until they should be known.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken....
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
Many hear this or that about the bible -or skim through, take one or more verses without an in-depth study... get the wrong idea... resulting in the following....
Isa_28:13 .............................that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Jas_1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Mark L Malone
New Member
He isn't torturing
"His own"
Lol
Those not His own, are eternally judged
"His own"
Lol
Those not His own, are eternally judged
Mark L Malone
New Member
ceseme
New Member
One of God's names is Eternal. Therefore, Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Having sinned, we deserve to be punished, but Jesus wrought the atonement, and by so doing made an escape for us. Therefore, if we repent and enter into a covenant with Him via baptism by one of God's authorized servants to keep God's commandments, we may be forgiven. Such a covenant is not to be taken lightly, for if we break it, we are subject to the punishment that we would have otherwise had to bear. The punishment for unrepentant sin is separation from the Eternal Father, which we must endure if we do not accept the atonement of Christ on our behalf. He endured it for our sakes and it was such that it caused him great agony, causing him to sweat great drops of blood. Now the diversity and degree of sin is also to be addressed in this context, for some sins really are greater than others. Murder, or the shedding of innocent blood being the worst, and sexual sin a close second. This because it is impossible to make restitution for such actions. We cannot bring back to life someone if we were to kill a person, and we cannot restore chastity to either ourselves or our partner if we commit sexual sin. Nevertheless, it is possible to receive forgiveness if we seek it with much penitence and refrain from further sin. Some murderers may receive forgiveness dependent upon their understanding of what they have done, for instance, if their parents planted in their bosoms a burning hatred for a certain party of people and taught them murder, and if upon receiving the truth of the matter they repent, but their sins will be answered upon the heads of those who instigated those behaviors.
However, not all sins have the same impact, and it is unreasonable to think that God, being just, would put those sinners in with all of the murderers, etc. But while any unrepented sin will separate us from God, there are, as Paul taught, three degrees of glory. There is a glory Celestial, as of the sun, terrestrial, as of the moon, and telestial, as of the stars. God dwells in a Celestial glory, and those who enter into all of the covenants with God that He has prepared for us and is faithful to the end to them, will be joint heirs with Christ, be exalted, and inherit with Him, all God has. There will be others who are worthy of living with God in Celestial glory, but only as servants. Then there is another world, which glory is as the moon compares with the sun. Those inhabitants may not enter into the Father's presence, but they may have from time to time, visitors from the Celestial glory, such as Christ and family members. The last world has a glory only likened to that of the stars as they compare in glory to the moon, having varying degrees of brightness. Then there are those, who, knowing the truth and having received a witness of it through the power of the Holy Spirit, yet wittingly sin against that witness, are cast into a bottomless pit at the Day of Judgement, which is reserved for the devil and his angels. It is the period between death and the day of Judgement that the spirits of the unjust are in torment, then comes the Day of Judgement where we acknowledge our judgement is just.
Now we know that David, having murdered Uriah, rejoiced in the hope which he had that his soul would not remain in hell; nevertheless, he lost his exaltation, and he and all others who lost their exaltation, will have a perfect remembrance of their lives with God previous to our mortality and have an everlasting torment and regret that they did not conduct their lives in such a way as to merit returning to their presence.
However, not all sins have the same impact, and it is unreasonable to think that God, being just, would put those sinners in with all of the murderers, etc. But while any unrepented sin will separate us from God, there are, as Paul taught, three degrees of glory. There is a glory Celestial, as of the sun, terrestrial, as of the moon, and telestial, as of the stars. God dwells in a Celestial glory, and those who enter into all of the covenants with God that He has prepared for us and is faithful to the end to them, will be joint heirs with Christ, be exalted, and inherit with Him, all God has. There will be others who are worthy of living with God in Celestial glory, but only as servants. Then there is another world, which glory is as the moon compares with the sun. Those inhabitants may not enter into the Father's presence, but they may have from time to time, visitors from the Celestial glory, such as Christ and family members. The last world has a glory only likened to that of the stars as they compare in glory to the moon, having varying degrees of brightness. Then there are those, who, knowing the truth and having received a witness of it through the power of the Holy Spirit, yet wittingly sin against that witness, are cast into a bottomless pit at the Day of Judgement, which is reserved for the devil and his angels. It is the period between death and the day of Judgement that the spirits of the unjust are in torment, then comes the Day of Judgement where we acknowledge our judgement is just.
Now we know that David, having murdered Uriah, rejoiced in the hope which he had that his soul would not remain in hell; nevertheless, he lost his exaltation, and he and all others who lost their exaltation, will have a perfect remembrance of their lives with God previous to our mortality and have an everlasting torment and regret that they did not conduct their lives in such a way as to merit returning to their presence.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes your are using your intelligence, and when we use our intelligence, we see the crap that is woven within the words, where as before we were blind to what was staring right at us.
There is enough torture in this world for some to claim that we're already living in hell! Why does this "God of Love" sit from afar and allow all this misery to happen and if he did indeed create it what sort of "Loving God" is that?! I prefer the Buddhist mythology of hell...It's 'self created', not punishment by some deity, and at least you have chance to get out of it and not burn forever!
There is enough torture in this world for some to claim that we're already living in hell! Why does this "God of Love" sit from afar and allow all this misery to happen and if he did indeed create it what sort of "Loving God" is that?! I prefer the Buddhist mythology of hell...It's 'self created', not punishment by some deity, and at least you have chance to get out of it and not burn forever!
ljgregorysr
Born Again Child of The True & Living God
My first post on this sight folks. I hope there will be more as time progresses.
It is very interesting to read the various comments here. I am of the denomination of "Missionary Baptists".
Jesus said to Nicodemus one night..."Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Take your dictionary and look up the meanings of the little bitty word "see", & apply them individually to this verse.
As long as there are generations of human beings there will be ideas of how to reach Paradise.
My prayer is that you will seek out the One True & Living God, realize your inability to be able to, on your own do something worthy of his merit. Salvation is a free gift, that comes from true repentance towards God & faith in our risen Savior..."The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It is very interesting to read the various comments here. I am of the denomination of "Missionary Baptists".
Jesus said to Nicodemus one night..."Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Take your dictionary and look up the meanings of the little bitty word "see", & apply them individually to this verse.
As long as there are generations of human beings there will be ideas of how to reach Paradise.
My prayer is that you will seek out the One True & Living God, realize your inability to be able to, on your own do something worthy of his merit. Salvation is a free gift, that comes from true repentance towards God & faith in our risen Savior..."The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Some guilt is deserved and necessary. For instance, it's the only thing that stands between a pedophile and acting out--besides a straight jacket.
All hearsay, including Jesus' words, if they are indeed his. There's nothing of rational substance on which to pin one's belief. The difference between the One True & Living God and Truth is apparently infinite. Human sacrifice was and remains Satanic evil in its purist form. And we participate in that evil when we consume the victim's flesh and blood--symbolically or otherwise. Repentance is our only salvation; no one can repent for you, even by dying.
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ljgregorysr
Born Again Child of The True & Living God
Your last sentence is true
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I have no problem believing this, & when you have met God & have the Holy Spirit in you, can believe it fully. because his Spirit bares witness with our Spirit that we are his:
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The Bible teaches eternal punishment but not eternal torture. I would think a reading of Luke 16 would answer everyone's questions.