Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[JoStories]

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

Most faiths have some kind,of punishment that is believed to help control people.
It is one of the reasons that Christianity and other faiths do not work for me. I left that behind almost 40 years ago. IMO, God is neither good nor bad. More of a yin-yang concept instead. Hell, purgatory, Gehenna, and so on are, for me, antithetical to what the great teachers have taught, including The Buddha, Christ, Gandhi,etc.

 

[JoStories]

The scriptures never say that God tortures His own children or anyone else. The word torture is not used in the scriptures, the word is torment. This torment is brought about by a person's decision to be apart from their Creator and Source of all that is life-giving and good. The love of God has provided all that is needed for anyone to be free from the suffering of sin, death, and separation. If a person refuses to be restored to the love and goodness God desires for them, then it is not God torturing them, but their own self-inflicted torment that will burden them for eternity.

And yet the dichotomy of your faith points out th that if one chooses a faith other than that of your faith, the constitutes the need for this 'torment'. That is why I find eastern paths so much more to my liking. There is no having to make such, IMO, untenable choices.

 

[ljgregorysr]

Ladies & Gentlemen...there is an eternal torment

Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Simplelogic]

Ladies & Gentlemen...there is an eternal torment

Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes. Except this text clearly shows that ONLY the devil will be tortured day and night forever. This is because the devil ate from the tree of life earlier in the garden. The lake fire is an incinerator that destroys evil people. The rest of humanity will not be tortured forever and there is no text to suggest they do.

 

[ljgregorysr]

Yes. Except this text clearly shows that ONLY the devil will be tortured day and night forever. This is because the devil ate from the tree of life earlier in the garden. The lake fire is an incinerator that destroys evil people. The rest of humanity will not be tortured forever and there is no text to suggest they do.

Re 20:15 And "whosoever" was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This pretty much covers the rest of humanity.

 

[truthofscripture]

Re 20:15 And "whosoever" was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This pretty much covers the rest of humanity.

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?
Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression geʹen·nan tou py·rosʹ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).
Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.
At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

 

[Simplelogic]

Re 20:15 And "whosoever" was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This pretty much covers the rest of humanity.

The lake of fire destroys things. This means all humans being thrown in are being destroyed not suffering forever. Satan will be tortured for day and night there because he ate from the tree of life while in the garden. This is precisely the reason that God decided to cut man off from the tree. He didn't want man living forever in the lake of fire.

 

[truthofscripture]

The lake of fire destroys things. This means all humans being thrown in are being destroyed not suffering forever. Satan will be tortured for day and night there because he ate from the tree of life while in the garden. This is precisely the reason that God decided to cut man off from the tree. He didn't want man living forever in the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is SYMBOLISM, referring to the Valley of Hinnom. The burning (constantly) trash heap outside Jerusalem. It refers to ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, not a literal lake of fire.

 

[ljgregorysr]

The lake of fire destroys things. This means all humans being thrown in are being destroyed not suffering forever. Satan will be tortured for day and night there because he ate from the tree of life while in the garden. This is precisely the reason that God decided to cut man off from the tree. He didn't want man living forever in the lake of fire.

This will not harmonize with the rest of scripture as in the case of the rich man & Lazuarus, which is not a parable because given names are used:
Lu 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 

[Me Myself]

I disagree. I then could equally say that you are suggesting that God should have everyone on a puppet string with no free thought or free will. Or if you are having a child that is going to invent a medicine that will heal half a world but you are not going to accept the gift that He is offering you, I shouldn't let you be born and sacrifice half a world and half them continue in their disease.

Not at all. Just create those that he knows will not suffer for ever. There is no need to create them without free will. Unless pre knowledge neegates free will in which case God is not omniscient.

About the child being born, if an omnipotent god wants to rid the world of a disease, he can do it without any cost (like for example, creating someone who will suffer eternally). If a cost needs to be paid, there is no omnipotence.

 

[Kolibri]

Ladies & Gentlemen...there is an eternal torment

Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

the wild beast and the false prophet are symbols of political entities. How do you literally torment a symbol?

 

[Kolibri]

This will not harmonize with the rest of scripture as in the case of the rich man & Lazuarus, which is not a parable because given names are used:
Lu 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.

This is not an account of a real Abraham and a real Lazarus. This is an illustration.

The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See Luke 16:14)
The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.)
Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

 

[Red Rocha]

IMV, it's your perspective that is wrong.

I have a nephew who was battling alcoholism. My house was open. A spare room was used. My help was there to help him through his issues.

He decided to leave and continue his lifestyle.

It would be wrong for you to accuse me of torturing my nephew. It would be wrong to accuse me of making him go through hell. It was his decision. The torture is of his own making.

There are those who believe that the body and soul will be annihilated. I'm not all knowing and I don't know all the particulars. I just keep the door open for those who don't want to be tortured anymore.

 

[Christ's Prophet]

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

My reply to this:- I would ask the question, ‘How did you know you were a Christian?’ Just because you grew up in a Christian home, does not make you a Christian. Do you know how you become a Christian? You have to realize that you cannot fool with the Almighty God, to do is playing with disaster. Trying to understand God, is like a computer of a 20cent watch trying to understand all the computers of the world at once. To answer your question, yes God is love, but God is also a holy God, who hates sin. He loves His creations so much that He sent His Son into the world to deal with the sin factor. In part, this can be understood when Christ went to the cross and all the filth of sin of the whole world was poured out upon Him, and because of this, the wrath of His Father, against sin, was poured out upon Him. Christ went through Hell so that you don’t have to. To answer the question, ‘why doesn’t God send people into annihilation when they die?’ The short answer is ‘where would the justice be?’ Where is the justice for the Idi-Amin’s or the Hitler’s or the Stalin’s or other mass murders; where is the justice for those who steal and suppress the poor? If you haven’t noticed already,this world is imperfect when it comes to justice, but God’s justice is perfect. I pray that the Spirit of the living God, helps you to understand this. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.

 

[Red Rocha]

My reply to this:- I would ask the question, ‘How did you know you were a Christian?’ Just because you grew up in a Christian home, does not make you a Christian. Do you know how you become a Christian? You have to realize that you cannot fool with the Almighty God, to do is playing with disaster. Trying to understand God, is like a computer of a 20cent watch trying to understand all the computers of the world at once. To answer your question, yes God is love, but God is also a holy God, who hates sin. He loves His creations so much that He sent His Son into the world to deal with the sin factor. In part, this can be understood when Christ went to the cross and all the filth of sin of the whole world was poured out upon Him, and because of this, the wrath of His Father, against sin, was poured out upon Him. Christ went through Hell so that you don’t have to. To answer the question, ‘why doesn’t God send people into annihilation when they die?’ The short answer is ‘where would the justice be?’ Where is the justice for the Idi-Amin’s or the Hitler’s or the Stalin’s or other mass murders; where is the justice for those who steal and suppress the poor? If you haven’t noticed already,this world is imperfect when it comes to justice, but God’s justice is perfect. I pray that the Spirit of the living God, helps you to understand this. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.

God does not punish His children.... only those who are not His children.
Jesus said that "You MUST be Born Again"....into His family.
Then you are His child. We all have sinned and are deserving of God's punishment but Jesus came to live a Perfect life on behalf of those that Trust His
sacrificial death for their sins. If you are in this category, you will spend Eternity with Him in Heaven. He loves His Children....
None of us deserve Heaven.... His Mercy is what saves us from Hell..... Titus3:5

 

[Kenny]

Not at all. Just create those that he knows will not suffer for ever. There is no need to create them without free will. Unless pre knowledge neegates free will in which case God is not omniscient.

About the child being born, if an omnipotent god wants to rid the world of a disease, he can do it without any cost (like for example, creating someone who will suffer eternally). If a cost needs to be paid, there is no omnipotence.

Sounds like you have it all figured out. Should have made you god.

 

[Right lane]

Reading all of these replies from people professing to know what God REALLY thinks, or does, or how God REALLY feels about something is amusing. How do people know what is in the mind of a god, if God actually existed?

If God really existed, and if he really wanted us to know him, his nature should be as unequivocal as the sun rising each day. But he's not. Why ? Because god's characteristics are is as diverse as the people who create him.​

 

[truthofscripture]

Reading all of these replies from people professing to know what God REALLY thinks, or does, or how God REALLY feels about something is amusing. How do people know what is in the mind of a god, if God actually existed?

If God really existed, and if he really wanted us to know him, his nature should be as unequivocal as the sun rising each day. But he's not. Why ? Because god's characteristics are is as diverse as the people who create him.​

Truth be known, few are ABLE to discern the true meaning of God's inspired word, and therefore are unable to know who and what God is. God searches our hearts constantly looking for honest hearted people whom He can draw to Him. If one has that honest heart, God uses holy spirit to allow us to understand His written word, the Bible. Without it, the obfuscating efforts of Satan prevent us from knowing what the scriptures say/mean. It's pretty simple. If God made His inspired word so easy to understand that anyone could grasp it's meaning, His purposes wouldn't be able to be fulfilled. That's why. And He DOES exist. You exist. That should be proof enough.

 

[It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife]

God doesn't torture anyone in Hell. Hell is complete separation from God. Souls are in torment in Hell because they are separated from God who is love, compassion and mercy. God is fair. Anyone who goes to Hell chooses to go to Hell by rejecting Christ.

 

[truthofscripture]

God doesn't torture anyone in Hell. Hell is complete separation from God. Souls are in torment in Hell because they are separated from God who is love, compassion and mercy. God is fair. Anyone who goes to Hell chooses to go to Hell by rejecting Christ.

The scriptures are extremely clear in saying that we do NOT have an immortal soul, so there isn't anything to send to hell, especially since the word hell means common grave of mankind, the same as Sheol and Hades mean common grave of mankind. Gehenna is symbolism for complete destruction. Hell is the grave.