"Make Rape Legal" Men's Group Plans Events in 43 Countries for Saturday

[Thanda]

I'd like to think the "men's rights" is much like just about any other group and the media blasts us with the most ratings-capable of stuff, but the few times I've looked I didn't find any sources that didn't have at least one explicitly and not-implied anti-woman articles. Even links that have been offered here as not anti-woman I found an anti-woman article, even on one I was about to give up on and dismiss it as a commercial by the way it was asking for money.
But I think the main reason may be because the logical and rational men realize that yeah, there are some problems, and some serious ones like custody, but they know they are not a repressed group, because, after all, men set the bar for women to be equal to.

I've found the site I visit the most "A Voice For Men" to be very anti-feminist rather than anti-woman. And I find that the obsession that they sometimes seem to have with discussing feminism is reciprocated by feminism's obsession with discussing patriarchy.

 

[Thanda]

If "men's rights" was really about gender equality, and your average MRA genuinely condemned misogyny they'd speak out against rape of women as a serious issue. Instead, the mainstream MRA position seems to be that it's wildly exaggerated and made up half the time or more. Contrast this with third wave feminists, who generally acknowledge rape of men as a major issue.

Also, if "men's rights was" really about gender equality, MRAs would promote a man's right to go against traditional gender norms, to wear a dress or be sexually penetrated. Instead they all seem to defend traditional notions of masculinity. Contrast this with feminists, who have always promoted the right to defy gender norms and often have openly criticized society's expectations of femininity.

This is very different from what I have noticed. The MRM even has a movement called "MGTOW" and I have noticed that they do embrace gay men. Furthermore Feminism is not about gender equality. It is about women's rights.

 

[Thanda]

Like I said, I don't think anyone should demonize radical feminists as a whole because of such fringe elements.

I know a very nice radical feminist who attends radical feminist meetings. She certainly hasn't told me to strangle myself with my penis yet.



We mostly agree here, but let me elaborate on something: it seems to me that preventive measures are different from countermeasures. The former, as their name implies, are supposed to prevent the crime from being committed in the first place. The latter are designed to counter the crime once it has already been attempted. There is a subtle but substantial difference between the two.

So, for example, encouraging young women to learn a martial art to defend themselves is a countermeasure--it is supposed to fend off the assailant who has already attempted the crime. Since the assailant has no idea beforehand that the woman knows a martial art, the fact that she does will not prevent him from attempting the crime. Instead, it will stop him in his tracks once he has launched his assault.

On the other hand, sitting at home all the time and avoiding any contact with men whatsoever is a preventive measure--a ridiculously unrealistic and oppressive one, since it is impossible for a woman to never leave her home or avoid any and all instances of being in the same place as men. Other commonly espoused "preventive measures" include abiding by certain dress codes, avoiding any friendly contact with men, and gender segregation in public transportion, at work, malls (Saudi Arabia has gender-segregated malls, for example), etc.

The difference between preventive measures and countermeasures is that the former are usually either so unrealistic and oppressive as to be ridiculous or based on myths and untested opinions, whereas the latter actually acknowledge the fact that pretty much nothing will prevent an assailant from attempting his crime when he sees a woman. It's not like a rapist thinks, "Oh, this lady is dressing modestly and acting appropriately. I'm not going to touch her." Only a good knocking out and prison sentence will teach him to think twice about assaulting anyone again.

I think preventative measures encompass counter measures.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But if you have an incident like the cologne incident, it isn't realistic to suggest that all women in the city suddenly take up martial arts.

It is realistic to suggest that the rapists be arrested and locked up, though.

 

[Thanda]

It is realistic to suggest that the rapists be arrested and locked up, though.

Is that something that needs to be suggested? Isn't that what police do as a matter of cause when a case is reported to them?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is that something that needs to be suggested? Isn't that what police do as a matter of cause when a case is reported to them?

Well, seeing as how rape is not punished nearly strictly enough in many parts of the world--some of which don't even recognize marital rape as a crime--no, not always.

 

[Thanda]

Well, seeing as how rape is not punished nearly strictly enough in many parts of the world--some of which don't even recognize marital rape as a crime--no, not always.

But the posted you quoted was not talking about "many parts of the world". It was talking about Germany.

And in your opinion what is a strict enough punishment for rape?

 

[Debater Slayer]

But the posted you quoted was not talking about "many parts of the world". It was talking about Germany.

I'm talking in general. The Cologne rapists are still out there, as far as I know, but I could be wrong.

And in your opinion what is a strict enough punishment for rape?

Anywhere from a life sentence to the death penalty. I generally don't suppprt the latter for any crime, but in countries where it is lawful, I wouldn't lose sleep if it were applied to a proved rapist... let's put it that way.

 

[Thanda]

I'm talking in general. The Cologne rapists are still out there, as far as I know, but I could be wrong.

I hope you can see why it is problematic to make general replies to specific posts.

Anywhere from a life sentence to the death penalty. I generally don't suppprt the latter for any crime, but in countries where it is lawful, I wouldn't lose sleep if it were applied to a proved rapist... let's put it that way.

Is this a position you would hold for other assaults or just sexual assault. E.g. I was attacked by someone close to twice my size (and he wasn't fat). It wasn't a fight, it was just an attack for a reason I still don't fully comprehend. Luckily for me it was at a place where there were people or who knows how far it would have gone. Anyway what I'm actually getting at is do you feel this kind of assault should also carry a life sentence or death penalty or do you feel the kind of assault I experienced is not as serious as sexual assault?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is this a position you would hold for other assaults or just sexual assault. E.g. I was attacked by someone close to twice my size (and he wasn't fat). It wasn't a fight, it was just an attack for a reason I still don't fully comprehend. Luckily for me it was at a place where there were people or who knows how far it would have gone. Anyway what I'm actually getting at is do you feel this kind of assault should also carry a life sentence or death penalty or do you feel the kind of assault I experienced is not as serious as sexual assault?

What were the details of your assault? Feel free not to answer this question. I'm just asking it because I can't really answer your question without knowing the details of what you experienced.

Also, I should clarify that I would be for life in prison with the possibility of release if and only if the rapist demonstrates conspicuous rehabilitation. I think the purpose of legal systems should be rehabilitation first and penalization second. If the rapist shows no signs of significant improvement in his behavior, then he either spends the rest of his life in prison or faces the death penalty.

 

[Wirey]

What were the details of your assault? Feel free not to answer this question. I'm just asking it because I can't really answer your question without knowing the details of what you experienced.

Also, I should clarify that I would be for life in prison with the possibility of release if and only if the rapist demonstrates conspicuous rehabilitation. I think the purpose of legal systems should be rehabilitation first and penalization second. If the rapist shows no signs of significant improvement in his behavior, then he either spends the rest of his life in prison or faces the death penalty.

Sorry, but I call bullpucky. Any system that includes capital punishment instantly precludes rehabilitation. No one gets better after they're killed.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sorry, but I call bullpucky. Any system that includes capital punishment instantly precludes rehabilitation. No one gets better after they're killed.

I did say that I'm against the death penalty, but where it is already legal and a rapist fails to rehabilitate after a long time in prison (such as, say, 25 or 30 years), I wouldn't lose sleep if he were punished with the death penalty. That doesn't mean I'm not against it in general.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Contrast this with feminists, who have always promoted the right to defy gender norms and often have openly criticized society's expectations of femininity.

There are some of the Second Wave who are vehemently anti-transsexual, and they are called "TERF," of Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists. But, as has been pointed out, they are a dying breed.

I've found the site I visit the most "A Voice For Men" to be very anti-feminist rather than anti-woman.

And that's a good thing how?

 

[Thanda]

And that's a good thing how?

Whether it's a good thing or not is irrelevant. What's important is that being anti-woman is quite different from being anti-feminist. Just as I'm sure being anti-MRA and being anti-men are is also two different things.

 

[Revoltingest]

Precisely what I was thinking about. It seems very easy to jump from rape to capital punishment. But I have never actually heard it explained why sexual assault should be considered a capital crime while all other assaults are not. Any ideas?

I oppose capital punishment.
But I suspect that "assault" is such a general term, that people feel no outrage.
Hearing the word, "rape", however, they imagine specifics.
Tempers flare. They let loose the dogs of war.
But I think of assault cases I know....a child beaten so badly she'll never recover
physically or mentally....is this really a less severe crime than rape?

 

[Thanda]

What were the details of your assault? Feel free not to answer this question. I'm just asking it because I can't really answer your question without knowing the details of what you experienced.

What kind of details do you need?

Also, I should clarify that I would be for life in prison with the possibility of release if and only if the rapist demonstrates conspicuous rehabilitation. I think the purpose of legal systems should be rehabilitation first and penalization second. If the rapist shows no signs of significant improvement in his behavior, then he either spends the rest of his life in prison or faces the death penalty.

Well in theory (at least for me) if we put people in jail so they cease to a menace to society then the penalty you propose should go for any crime. If someone steals and they don't show a different attitude then why should they be released?

On the other hand the death penalty still falls under my question of whether you believe the sexual assault is a more serious assault than physical assault - especially considering you are more likely to die from physical assault than sexual assault.

 

[Thanda]

I oppose capital punishment.
But I suspect that "assault" is such a general term, that people feel no outrage.
Hearing the word, "rape", however, they imagine specifics.
Tempers flare. They let loose the dogs of war.
But I think of assault cases I know....a child beaten so badly she'll never recover
physically or mentally....is this really a less severe crime than rape?

Very good question - hopefully the death penalty advocates in this forum will answer for us.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What kind of details do you need?

What the assailant did, what he or she was attempting to do (e.g., kill you vs. only steal from you), etc.

Well in theory (at least for me) if we put people in jail so they cease to a menace to society then the penalty you propose should go for any crime. If someone steals and they don't show a different attitude then why should they be released?

On the other hand the death penalty still falls under my question of whether you believe the sexual assault is a more serious assault than physical assault - especially considering you are more likely to die from physical assault than sexual assault.

I think that stealing is definitely a less severe crime than sexual assault (rape, to be specific). I consider the latter to be on the same level as deliberate murder. It causes debilitating psychological damage and ruins lives, perhaps more than any other crime that leaves the person alive as opposed to murdering them.

 

[Thanda]

What the assailant did, what he or she was attempting to do (e.g., kill you vs. only steal from you), etc.

He was punching and kicking. I almost went unconscious. He simply wanted to beat me up. He had a gripe - don't ask me what it was about: I have no idea (he was large and strong and was maybe using certain substances to get himself that way - he might not therefore have been completely mentally stable).

I think that stealing is definitely a less severe crime than sexual assault (rape, to be specific). I consider the latter to be on the same level as deliberate murder. It causes debilitating psychological damage and ruins lives, perhaps more than any other crime that leaves the person alive as opposed to murdering them.

That it is a more serious crime than stealing is not what I'm getting at. What I am getting at is that if the rationale for putting people in jail is to keep them from being a menace to society (as you've proposed) then it should not matter what crime we are dealing with. So long as the person has not rehabilitated they should not be allowed out of prison. Is this not the logical conclusion?

Secondly I cannot comment about what it feels like to be raped. But I can comment on what it feels like to be assaulted as a man in front of a lot of people. There is huge psychological damage that gets done: dreams, self-esteem issues, anger issues shame etc. I'm thankful that I managed to deal with most of that and move on. Many women who have been raped have also managed to deal with similar feelings and move on.

If you had asked me back then (just after my assault) what punishment the guy deserved who assaulted me I probably would have given the kind of answers you are giving about rape. But looking back, I realise that would have been an over reaction.

 

[Revoltingest]

Very good question - hopefully the death penalty advocates in this forum will answer for us.

I'd think that especially in the case of rape, which is rife with problems of subjectivity,
racial politics, gender politics, & lack of witnesses, verdicts & sentences should be reversible.
Once the accused is dead, exculpation becomes moot.