Man - 'Created in the image of God'

[Katzpur]

We have a spirit. Although we exist physically we also have a spirit. For example, Genesis 41:8 says, " And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh."

So could you define "spirit" as it relates to us? What exactly is a spirit? When you say that God is spirit, what do you mean? Can you relate the spirit of man and the spirit of God in any way? What do you think about the word "spirit" being defined as "life"?

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that human eyes could behold his countenance and that we could only look upon Him when we are in a glorified body......

What do you suppose He will look like? Do you believe we will be seeing Jesus Christ when you say we will look upon Him? Or do you believe we will be seeing God the Father?

 

[Daily Devoted]

If God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not have a physical existence, could you explain the difference between them? If they are both spirit only, and if spirit (I am presuming here) fills the universe, in what regard are they distinct and in what purpose does each of them serve? They seem more or less redundant, if you know what I mean.

This is something that we as humans cannot fully understand because, it's God. As best as I can understand/explain it is as follows:
God the Father is, by role, the head of the Trinity. This does not mean that He is more God than the Son or the Spirit. God the Holy Spirit indwells and empowers the believers and He helps us to understand the Word. The Spirit is the source of spiritual gifts (teaching, preaching, etc.)

Do you believe in the Trinity katzpur?

 

[Katzpur]

This is something that we as humans cannot fully understand because, it's God. As best as I can understand/explain it is as follows:
God the Father is, by role, the head of the Trinity. This does not mean that He is more God than the Son or the Spirit. God the Holy Spirit indwells and empowers the believers and He helps us to understand the Word. The Spirit is the source of spiritual gifts (teaching, preaching, etc.)

Do you believe in the Trinity katzpur?

No, at least not as it was defined by the Nicene and later Creeds. I do believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, though. I just don't see them as being part of a single substance or essence. In other words, I believe them to be physically distinct from one another, but "one" in will, purpose, mind and heart. I, too, see the Father as being supreme. Like you, I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost have all of the same divine attributes. The Son and the Holy Ghost are subordinate to the Father, but only with respect to their relationship to Him.

If the Father is spirit like the Holy Spirit, why does He not do all of the things which the Holy Spirit does -- i.e. dwell within us, empower us, help us understand the Word, etc.?

 

[Daily Devoted]

So could you define "spirit" as it relates to us? What exactly is a spirit? When you say that God is spirit, what do you mean? Can you relate the spirit of man and the spirit of God in any way? What do you think about the word "spirit" being defined as "life"?

I have to admit that I have not really looked this up myself. If you could give me a couple days or so, I will get back to you with an answer.

 

[Daily Devoted]

If the Father is spirit like the Holy Spirit, why does He not do all of the things which the Holy Spirit does -- i.e. dwell within us, empower us, help us understand the Word, etc.?

For this, it goes back to the role of the Father. There roles are different. I, however, do believe in the triunity of God. A Scriptural example of this would be: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

 

[Katzpur]

For this, it goes back to the role of the Father. There roles are different. I, however, do believe in the triunity of God. A Scriptural example of this would be: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

Yes, "one," but "one" in what way? The scriptures definitely don't say "one in substance" or "one in essence." In Jesus' great intercessory prayer in John 17, He prays that His followers would come to be "one even as we (i.e. He and His Father) are one." To me, that's a huge clue as to what the "oneness" of God really is. We, as Christ's followers hardly expect to become part of the God's substance, so the "oneness" of which the scriptures speak has be be a "oneness" or "unity" of something other than the physical.

 

[Katzpur]

I have to admit that I have not really looked this up myself. If you could give me a couple days or so, I will get back to you with an answer.

I'd be happy to wait. Don't disappoint me, though.

 

[Daily Devoted]

Y In Jesus' great intercessory prayer in John 17, He prays that His followers would come to be "one even as we (i.e. He and His Father) are one." To me, that's a huge clue as to what the "oneness" of God really is. We, as Christ's followers hardly expect to become part of the God's substance, so the "oneness" of which the scriptures speak has be be a "oneness" or "unity" of something other than the physical.

It seems to me that Jesus is praying that we, as a body of believers, would become one with each other as He and His Father are one. Here is what the verse says, John 17:11 "And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are." See how it says that they may be one as we are one. Every individual believer has different gifts and abilities, but Jesus wants us to join together as one body/being so that we can work together to spread the Gospel.

 

[Katzpur]

It seems to me that Jesus is praying that we, as a body of believers, would become one with each other as He and His Father are one. Here is what the verse says, John 17:11 "And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are." See how it says that they may be one as we are one. Every individual believer has different gifts and abilities, but Jesus wants us to join together as one body/being so that we can work together to spread the Gospel.

I think you actually explained it better than I did, at least up to a point. I agree that Jesus wants us to join together to spread the gospel. But, think of the words you used -- "body" and "being." I can see us being united or joined together as a "body" such as a studentbody. But a studentbody, for instance, is a collective noun. In its singular form (a studentbody or the studentbody) it must nevertheless be comprised of multiple individuals who are united in some way but who retain their individuality. Mary and John are both students within a single studentbody, but individually they are still Mary and John. I don't see the same thing as being true with the word "being." I cannot conceive of any way in which Mary and John can be a single "being." Relating this to my understanding of how the three persons in the Godhead are "one," it seems obvious enough that they can be "one," i.e. fully and absolutely united in terms of their will and purpose but still three individual beings. I would describe the word "Godhead" as a collective noun, like "studentbody." I would not, however, describe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as "one being." Does that make sense?

 

[Charity]

What do you suppose He will look like? Do you believe we will be seeing Jesus Christ when you say we will look upon Him? Or do you believe we will be seeing God the Father?

I cannot imagine what God will look like.
I believe we will see God, the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son of God seated at the right hand of the Father.....This is my belief and is based on the Bible.

 

[free spirit]

I hope this will give some light to your question, This is one of many articles that I have included in my book "THE WAY GOD TOLD IT" soon to be published.
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP


We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4:20-26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her, “Woman believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to Him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (He who is called Christ when that One comes He will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
In the book of Genesis 1:26-27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill has fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female. Some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.
It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefronts of our lives, if anything it is his over-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for He created all things by the power of His word, and like Him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2:7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:5-6 records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3:22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.”
Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body. In our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.
We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication, for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and/or, behaviours, that cause offence to one’s own character? So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be Holy, for I am Holy” is an invitation to fellowship with Him.
Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a Holy God. Ephesians 4:23 is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.:angel2:
END OF PART ONE

 

[free spirit]

PART TWO OF "EFFECTIVE WORSHIP"
However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts and replace them with the discipline of love, with its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. It is an independent judge of all that we do or say and it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many men in the world who have no conscience.)

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7:15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” Paul says in the above Scripture that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of His grace He has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1Peter 4:2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for He sacrificed His Son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request He sends the spirit of His Son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins, also giving our conscience the power to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s Holiness. Hebrews 10:1-18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental in the worship of God. 1Corinthians 6:18-20 is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made perfect by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12:1-2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not use a defiled vessel.
Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made His mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth.
As we all know, or should know that the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to Him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and Father. Having therefore by His grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of Holiness in the presence of our God and Father.
The attitude of worship will express respect, obedience and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know His will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on His behalf to our fellow men. If we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with His Son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.
Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the Father, but through Me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of His earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because He is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because He is the eternal Word = Eternal Life
It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Glory to God:angel2:

 

[Katzpur]

I cannot imagine what God will look like.
I believe we will see God, the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son of God seated at the right hand of the Father.....This is my belief and is based on the Bible.

I believe we will see both of them, too, Charity. God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I don't believe we will be seeing just Jesus, sitting on the right hand of an invisible spirit. I believe we will be seeing two glorious, immortal personages.

 

[Charity]

I believe we will see both of them, too, Charity. God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I don't believe we will be seeing just Jesus, sitting on the right hand of an invisible spirit. I believe we will be seeing two glorious, immortal personages.

Agreed my friend.......

 

[Daily Devoted]

So could you define "spirit" as it relates to us? What exactly is a spirit? When you say that God is spirit, what do you mean? Can you relate the spirit of man and the spirit of God in any way? What do you think about the word "spirit" being defined as "life"?

Spirit - the invisible source or center of personality.
Also, when the spirit leaves the body, the body dies: James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God is spirit: the Bible explicitly states this in John 4:24: "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

 

[Daily Devoted]

I think you actually explained it better than I did, at least up to a point. I agree that Jesus wants us to join together to spread the gospel. But, think of the words you used -- "body" and "being." I can see us being united or joined together as a "body" such as a studentbody. But a studentbody, for instance, is a collective noun. In its singular form (a studentbody or the studentbody) it must nevertheless be comprised of multiple individuals who are united in some way but who retain their individuality. Mary and John are both students within a single studentbody, but individually they are still Mary and John. I don't see the same thing as being true with the word "being." I cannot conceive of any way in which Mary and John can be a single "being." Relating this to my understanding of how the three persons in the Godhead are "one," it seems obvious enough that they can be "one," i.e. fully and absolutely united in terms of their will and purpose but still three individual beings. I would describe the word "Godhead" as a collective noun, like "studentbody." I would not, however, describe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as "one being." Does that make sense?

I know what you are trying to say, but in the end I think we have to come to the conclusion that we will never understand this concept. We cannot understand God fully. Romans 11:33 says, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" Just because we cannot conceive of a way for Him to be three persons in one being does not mean that He can't be that.

As i was saying in the end we just can't fully comprehend God. As far as seeing God: do you agree that angels are spirits? Assuming that you do: angels appeared to people many times in the Bible yet they do not have a physical body. It's the same with God. He can choose to reveal himself to people in a physical way, but that does not make Him a physical being.

 

[Katzpur]

Spirit - the invisible source or center of personality.
Also, when the spirit leaves the body, the body dies: James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God is spirit: the Bible explicitly states this in John 4:24: "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

God truly is spirit, but He is also light and love. The Bible explicitly states those things, too. Spirit, light, and love all three some of His attributes, but no one of them alone defines Him. And the fact that He is all of those things does not preclude Him also being something more.

I agree with your statement that spirit is the invisible source or center of personality. I would also say that spirit is the essence of who we are. By that, I mean that in any other body, my spirit would continue to be uniquely me. Yes, I am recognizable because of my physical appearance, but my spirit is the "real me." It is the life force that sustains me. How does that compare to your belief?

I would also agree that when the spirit leaves the body, the body dies. Do you believe that the spirit also dies, or do you believe that it continues to exist independently of the body? If so, what do you believe will ultimately happen to the spirit?

 

[Daily Devoted]

God truly is spirit, but He is also light and love. The Bible explicitly states those things, too. Spirit, light, and love all three some of His attributes, but no one of them alone defines Him. And the fact that He is all of those things does not preclude Him also being something more.

Yes, God is light and love, but His light and love emanate from His spirit. His personality, emotions and characteristics come from His spirit. They are not the same as His spirit.

I agree with your statement that spirit is the invisible source or center of personality. I would also say that spirit is the essence of who we are. By that, I mean that in any other body, my spirit would continue to be uniquely me. Yes, I am recognizable because of my physical appearance, but my spirit is the "real me." It is the life force that sustains me. How does that compare to your belief?

It sounds like that is pretty much the same thing I was saying. I don't know if I am interpreting it differently or not, but it sounds the same.

I would also agree that when the spirit leaves the body, the body dies. Do you believe that the spirit also dies, or do you believe that it continues to exist independently of the body? If so, what do you believe will ultimately happen to the spirit?

No, the spirit does not die. Colossions 5:8 says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This means that when our spirits leave our body (a.k.a. death) they go to where the Lord is. So at this time that is heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

Just because we cannot conceive of a way for Him to be three persons in one being does not mean that He can't be that.

But where does the Bible say that this is what He is? Where does it say that He is three persons in one being? It doesn't, and I'm pretty sure you know that. That's what the Creeds say He is, but it's not what the Bible says. The Bible says only that God is "one." It implies (in John 17) the way in which the Father and the Son are "one" but it never, ever even suggests that they are both part of a single substance. Consider the following verses:

Exodus 24:3 ...and all the people answered withone voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul...

Romans 15:6 That ye may withone mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In each of these verses, we can see that the one "one" is used to denote unity, not an actual number of units. I am at a loss as to why Trinitarians are so insistant that the references to God as being "one" must mean "one being," "one substance" or "one essence."

As i was saying in the end we just can't fully comprehend God.

I do agree that we can't fully comprehend God. On the other hand, I think we have made Him far more unknowable that we need to. I think Christ's followers in the first and second centuries were able to comprehend God far more accurately than were those in the years since the writers of the Creeds stepped in to clarify what it was the Bible really meant to say.

As far as seeing God: do you agree that angels are spirits?

Not necessarily. There are several hundred references to angels in the Bible and we are never once told that they are spirits. As a matter of fact, there is at least one instance in which an angel is said to touch someone, which could not be the case if the angel had been a spirit. I believe that angels are simply messengers of the Lord. I believe that in form, they are like human beings. Some may be pre-mortal spirits and some may be resurrected beings.

Assuming that you do: angels appeared to people many times in the Bible yet they do not have a physical body. It's the same with God. He can choose to reveal himself to people in a physical way, but that does not make Him a physical being.

It wouldn't make Him a physical being, nor would it preclude that as a possibility.