The above edit is a good addition to clarify your OP, I think. It seems to me that the original wording without clarification is prone to being misunderstood.
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Man hating: what is it?
- Thread starter Wherenextcolumbus
- Start date
The above edit is a good addition to clarify your OP, I think. It seems to me that the original wording without clarification is prone to being misunderstood.
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Sounds rough, have you thought about political lesbianism!?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
As sexy as I am, it's sometimes tough to keep my hands off myself.
To me, the real challenge has been learning to work, cook, type, clean, paint, etc., with just one hand.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Hatred of males would be misandry, but, I'm not of the opinion that it's problematic unless outwardly expressed in a manner that results in discrimination or hurtful action.
I apply the same concept to misogyny as well. People have every right to hate a single woman or group of women and it's not a problem, in my opinion, unless such hatred results in discriminative or hurtful action.
Edit: To answer your question, only you know if your mistrust translates to hatred and/or a brand of misandry that would conflict with feministic viewpoint.
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Examples of misandry are things like the SCUM Manifesto and Dworkin's implication that heterosexual vaginal sex is a form of "imperialism" with the penis "invading" the vagina. 
Much of radical feminism, especially radical lesbian feminism, has misandrist aspects (as well as transphobia, I might add).
Much of radical feminism, especially radical lesbian feminism, has misandrist aspects (as well as transphobia, I might add).
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I disagree with the idea that generalization is always wrong, especially in cases where no harm is done. I've never really associated myself with deontological ethics like that.
Suppose that one lived in a city where it was a known fact that people with green hair are 3x more likely to assault people than people with blue hair. And you're walking on a dark street, and you see a bunch of green hair people walking in your direction. It is statistically rational to be a bit worried, including specifically because they have green hair.
Even if we change it, and say that a green hair person is 3x more likely to assault a blue hair person than another green hair person, and a blue hair person is 3x more likely to assault a green hair person than another blue hair person. If you're a blue hair person, you statistically have more to worry about from green hair strangers on dark streets. Much like a woman might have to be a bit more wary of men in some situations, for her own safety.
There have been a handful of times in my life where I have realized that I feel physically unsafe, such as walking back from an apartment party at night and seeing a group of men that didn't seem right, or being in an unusually creepy parking lot at night and seeing a guy stand next to a car for no apparent reason looking at me, or being an RA in a residence hall doing my duty to patrol the halls and coming across a group of intoxicated confrontational men, etc. If statistically, men are more of a potential threat to me in problematic situations like that, it makes sense to take more precaution, to focus more attention on them, to be aware of the statistics. There are also physical differences to take into account, such as the fact that men are statistically larger and stronger; I'd worry more about the possibility of being physically overpowered by a group of two or more men, than in other situations.
To pretend that I feel equally unsafe in certain situations with men or women, would be a lie.
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Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Bigotry is ignorant and irrational. However, people have the right to hate whomever they want for whatever reason they want. It should only be a concern if it's acted upon in a way that victimizes or violates the rights of others.
The edit makes all the difference, I think.
Man hating, in my view, consists of things like political lesbianism, lesbian separatism, and just misandry in general. It also includes unwarranted generalizing, like saying "men are always [...]" or statements like that.
To some extent I would generally view man-hating as basically a tribal mentality of "us vs them", which can include the clearer examples above, but can also include simply blaming only men for the existence of patriarchy. At least in my experience, women are just as guilty as men of sexism towards women, and upholding of patriarchal norms. So I don't usually feel it's right for feminism to be sort of aligned against "men" or male interests in general, and instead think it should be aligned against "patriarchy" or "sexism" or "inequality", regardless of the source.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
I agree with this 100 percent. I think a lot of the problems in regards to race, ethnicity, gender, nationality, etc..., come down to an "us vs them" mentality. I think that mentality is a huge problem on a global level.
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Even though I can sympathise with political lesbianism, and would not just brush it off as man hating full stop, although that is arguably a part of it. The idea of not sleeping with the enemy and loving your sisters is flawed because it doesn't take into account intersectionality, which would make black women sleeping with white women sleeping with the enemy, and rich women sleeping with poor women sleeping with the enemy, by their logic. Or women of colour acknowledging the struggles of men of colour and working with them as friending the enemy. Basically it's very white woman centred, and not realistic for all women.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Not sure if you worded it correctly or if I'm reading it wrongly, but do you mean to say that we created the Feminist Only DIR in order to discuss misandry? I assume you simply meant that we created this DIR for feminist discussion in general whatever the topic?
I don't see any reason why misandry shouldn't be discussed as long as it is not promoted.
No, it might mean that men in your environment are untrustworthy and exploitive. Or it might mean that you have had bad experience with men. Or maybe some of both. It is more common than it should be for men to exploit circumstances in order to get something out of women, naturally women who are effected by it must have good reasons for developing mistrust. It doesn't mean that if you meet a decent man you aren't going to recognize his qualities and feel the same negative feelings you have towards abusive men.
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
Caladan I mean feminists hating men kept being brought up in feminist discussions and derailed the threads which is why we wanted a feminist DIR, so only people who identified as feminists could post here.
Knight of Albion
Well-Known Member
Hating is of course wrong... However, the way some men treat women - from two-timing to gang rape and beating - it doesn't surprise me that some women have an aversion to men.
Maybe I'm from another age, but I still believe that a man should be a gentleman and behave honourably and treat women respectfully. If they did, there wouldn't need to be a feminist movement.
Maybe I'm from another age, but I still believe that a man should be a gentleman and behave honourably and treat women respectfully. If they did, there wouldn't need to be a feminist movement.
Treating women honorably, gently, and with respect is something many of the most patriarchal men in history have aspired to. In itself, that would not necessarily bring about an end to patriarchy.
Perhaps. The question is, though, who decides what is "honorable" and "respectful" when acting towards a woman? Does deciding what she should wear, talk, and walk show respect and a sense of protection? Does deciding how much money she should have access to - simply because she is a woman - show respect?
I'd prefer to leave it up to the couple and to the individuals involved to decide if they wish to have such a power differential in their relationship. What I argue is that the patriarchal model is typically considered the "default" setting in many a culture.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Thanks for putting it into context, that makes much more sense.
Why can't men and women simply talk to each other and treat each other without excessive drama from the Age of Feudal Story-telling? Without the good or the bad. There is nothing wrong with holding the door for someone who's holding something, or showing any other type of common courtesy, but even excessive chivalry becomes overbearing and exhausting.
Simurgh
Atheist Triple Goddess
Looking at this thread makes me think of the many times I was called a man hater and dismissed because being labeled as such makes me an easily disregarded and ignored participant in a given discourse. I have been a feminist since I went to grade school and learned that a girl is less than a boy; less important, less intelligent, less capable, less rational , less everything. I knew for a fact that none of this was true since I was not less than any of the boys I knew, and in many instances actually better than they were.
In other instances I could not compete, usually because I did not want to. Then again, that distance ******* contest would have been something I wanted to win but that was a male only event from what I was told; plumbing issue. I learned that intelligence, ability and skill are not gender linked, especially not in the way it was present to children my age.
The most important thing though that I did learn pretty quickly was that women are their own worst enemy!!!!
Every time I or another one of the girls bucked the stereotype and did or said something intelligent, outperformed the boys in sports or building skills, acted autonomous in any way, the other girls would come down on us like a ton of bricks and made our lives miserable.
We had transgressed against the code of the good girl. That meant we were not girly girls who simpered and whined and asked boys for help so that they could show of their superiority in whatever. Then our mothers would get on us and tell us that we would never find a man who would want to marry us because we were not normal.
Some of us caved in and tried to fake conformity. Needless to say, my talents did not reach that far, and I never did then nor do I do so now. I do not think that I need to belabor the fact that it cost me dearly over the years.
But why do non-feminists so often assume that in order to want equal access to resources, equal pay, and equal opportunity translates into hatred of men? I married one, had two sons and have actually never met a man I hated. I do dislike a few, but hate? No, never have I hated anyone. As feminist I simply want the same human rights a man expects to have. Mostly I want the right to be autonomous. I want the rights men take for granted, I dont want to pay higher insurance premiums because I need birth controlmen apparently cannot be made to pay for that (yeah, for virgin birth)while I finance Viagra for men with my premiums.
Health Care Costs Are Greater For Women In Most States
I do not want to be told that I am hysterical or hormonal if I disagree with men about issues they know nothing about. Case in point, I am treaded like the proverbial dumb blond when I involve myself in a discussion on issues concerning science, philosophy, religion, history, and a few other subject dear to my heart. I am often dismissed by those honorably behaving men as an uninformed female until I look up to them (Im short, what can I say) and tell them that I am well qualified to have opinions about such topics since I spent a lifetime studying them and have the various post-bac degrees to prove it. Yet, I men, younger and less educated or knowledgeable than I make inane comments they never get that treatment.
So where is honorable and chivalrous treatment getting us here? I find it patronizing when men treat me as if I were to weak and stupid to take care of myself. And no, I am not talking about opening the car door for me or some such thing. I am talking about men who tell me not to worry my pretty little head about something I cannot possibly understand or know.
No, as a feminist I dont hate men, I get along with them just fine. I also want to make sure that we understand each other here.
Feminism is not a monolith. It is a generalized term that covers the needs of women on a global scale. My needs are not the same as those of a woman in the southern hemisphere, or even a different western country. Never mind about what Indian, Chinese, Ukrainian, South African, or . need and want. Feminism is a local phenomenon. Even if all men could be taught to be honorable, it would not solve the problem of women being treated as lesser humans.
And I stand by my initial comment as well, women are their own worst enemy, they are the ones who teach their children that being female is less than being male. Why else would they buy the slutty clothes and make-up available for 3 to 5 year olds in the first place?
In other instances I could not compete, usually because I did not want to. Then again, that distance ******* contest would have been something I wanted to win but that was a male only event from what I was told; plumbing issue. I learned that intelligence, ability and skill are not gender linked, especially not in the way it was present to children my age.
The most important thing though that I did learn pretty quickly was that women are their own worst enemy!!!!
Every time I or another one of the girls bucked the stereotype and did or said something intelligent, outperformed the boys in sports or building skills, acted autonomous in any way, the other girls would come down on us like a ton of bricks and made our lives miserable.
We had transgressed against the code of the good girl. That meant we were not girly girls who simpered and whined and asked boys for help so that they could show of their superiority in whatever. Then our mothers would get on us and tell us that we would never find a man who would want to marry us because we were not normal.
Some of us caved in and tried to fake conformity. Needless to say, my talents did not reach that far, and I never did then nor do I do so now. I do not think that I need to belabor the fact that it cost me dearly over the years.
But why do non-feminists so often assume that in order to want equal access to resources, equal pay, and equal opportunity translates into hatred of men? I married one, had two sons and have actually never met a man I hated. I do dislike a few, but hate? No, never have I hated anyone. As feminist I simply want the same human rights a man expects to have. Mostly I want the right to be autonomous. I want the rights men take for granted, I dont want to pay higher insurance premiums because I need birth controlmen apparently cannot be made to pay for that (yeah, for virgin birth)while I finance Viagra for men with my premiums.
Health Care Costs Are Greater For Women In Most States
I do not want to be told that I am hysterical or hormonal if I disagree with men about issues they know nothing about. Case in point, I am treaded like the proverbial dumb blond when I involve myself in a discussion on issues concerning science, philosophy, religion, history, and a few other subject dear to my heart. I am often dismissed by those honorably behaving men as an uninformed female until I look up to them (Im short, what can I say) and tell them that I am well qualified to have opinions about such topics since I spent a lifetime studying them and have the various post-bac degrees to prove it. Yet, I men, younger and less educated or knowledgeable than I make inane comments they never get that treatment.
So where is honorable and chivalrous treatment getting us here? I find it patronizing when men treat me as if I were to weak and stupid to take care of myself. And no, I am not talking about opening the car door for me or some such thing. I am talking about men who tell me not to worry my pretty little head about something I cannot possibly understand or know.
No, as a feminist I dont hate men, I get along with them just fine. I also want to make sure that we understand each other here.
Feminism is not a monolith. It is a generalized term that covers the needs of women on a global scale. My needs are not the same as those of a woman in the southern hemisphere, or even a different western country. Never mind about what Indian, Chinese, Ukrainian, South African, or . need and want. Feminism is a local phenomenon. Even if all men could be taught to be honorable, it would not solve the problem of women being treated as lesser humans.
And I stand by my initial comment as well, women are their own worst enemy, they are the ones who teach their children that being female is less than being male. Why else would they buy the slutty clothes and make-up available for 3 to 5 year olds in the first place?
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
I went to a girls school and had a very different experience. I was never made to feel like I could not do something because I was a girl. And from listening to other people's experiences I probably would have had a terrible experience at a mixed school and I'm very grateful I never went to one.
From my experience it seems girls are more accepting of each others differences when there isn't any boys around. Even our lesbian and bi girls were pretty much accepted, some being very popular in our school both friendship wise and romantically.