Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would say - don't go.

I've had job opportunities in Abu Dhabi and Dubai; that's what I decided.

I know these are different countries, but the same concerns about human rights apply... only moreso in Saudi Arabia.

 

[.lava]

So stoning a omwan becasue she was raped is humane? Hanging teenagers because they are gay is humane?

uh..did she really say that? please quote her so that i could read from her own words

.

 

[Draka]

Absolutely.

Offically, private non-Muslim worship is allowed, but public worship is not. Also, importation of non-Muslim religious materials (e.g. your Tarot cards, probably) is illegal, and non-Muslim clergy are prohibited from entering the country.

On top of all that, if they decided that you were marketing your Tarot business to Muslims, you'd probably be looking at a death sentence.

Then that would mean my certificate of ordination would keep from entering the country anyway. As to the second part, why would it be my responsibility to deny a product or service to someone when it should be their responsibility to know what they should and should not do? If I had a Muslim knock on my door and ask for a reading I would have to turn them away to save my ***?

 

[AxisMundi]

uh..did she really say that? please quote her so that i could read from her own words

.

Or how about YOU answer.

I never claimed she said that, BTW, re-read my reply IN CONTEXT.

 

[.lava]

If I had a Muslim knock on my door and ask for a reading I would have to turn them away to save my ***?

Muslims do that? i would like to know if there are any Muslims knock on doors to preach like Christian do

.

 

[.lava]

Or how about YOU answer.

I never claimed she said that, BTW, re-read my reply IN CONTEXT.

i don't believe stoning is command of God regardless what crime or sin was committed. i have some questions that's not answered yet about killing of gay people. for one i don't know any law about execution of gay and even if there was i would like to know how those men were proven to be gay.

no worries, i am very well aware you're "just" asking. but i am asking you what made you ask those questions. what did she say that's related to situations you mentioned? IMO she, as a Muslim, loves Islamic system but that does not mean that she approves every single thing that's done in Muslim nations

.

 

[AxisMundi]

i don't believe stoning is command of God regardless what crime or sin was committed. i have some questions that's not answered yet about killing of gay people. for one i don't know any law about execution of gay and even if there was i would like to know how those men were proven to be gay.

UK Gay News - Iran Executes Two Gay Teens In Public Hanging
Iran: Gay Teens Executed by Hanging

no worries, i am very well aware you're "just" asking. but i am asking you what made you ask those questions. what did she say that's related to situations you mentioned? IMO she, as a Muslim, loves Islamic system but that does not mean that she approves every single thing that's done in Muslim nations

Thank God, I don't rely on yours to define what's humane and what is not.

I am asking her to clarify what constitutes "humane" in her opinion.

 

[Draka]

Muslims do that? i would like to know if there are any Muslims knock on doors to preach like Christian do

.

I wasn't talking about preaching, I was talking about if a Muslim came to me for me to give them a tarot reading. That I would have to refuse them to save my own hide. That seems wrong to me. If a Muslim were to willingly come to me for a tarot reading then, if that's a no-no for them it should be on them for making the decision to come to me, not on me for doing what I do for anyone else who isn't a Muslim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then that would mean my certificate of ordination would keep from entering the country anyway.

If they knew about it. I don't see how they would unless you told them.

As to the second part, why would it be my responsibility to deny a product or service to someone when it should be their responsibility to know what they should and should not do? If I had a Muslim knock on my door and ask for a reading I would have to turn them away to save my ***?

Heh... I'm the wrong person to ask if you want to learn about consistency or logic in the policies of the Saudi government. I was mainly thinking of other Islamic countries where, for instance, retailers can sell alcohol to non-Muslims, but they're prohibited by law from selling it to Muslims. I'm not sure of the details of how they police this sort of thing.

 

[AxisMundi]

I wasn't talking about preaching, I was talking about if a Muslim came to me for me to give them a tarot reading. That I would have to refuse them to save my own hide. That seems wrong to me. If a Muslim were to willingly come to me for a tarot reading then, if that's a no-no for them it should be on them for making the decision to come to me, not on me for doing what I do for anyone else who isn't a Muslim.

Islam does seem quite short on personal responsibility.

When I stop for my morning coffee as a local Muslim owned deli, I try and be very careful not to oggle some of the very fine looking women in that neighborhood.

I don't want them flogged for smiling back.

 

[Sahar]

So stoning a omwan becasue she was raped is humane? Hanging teenagers because they are gay is humane?



That's the trouble with theocracy. Only a select few decide that certain government.

You are being dishonest and I am not interested in bothering myself with such dishonesty.

 

[Moonstone]

So stoning a woman becasue she was raped is humane? Hanging teenagers because they are gay is humane?

You are being dishonest and I am not interested in bothering myself with such dishonesty.

How is he being dishonest? He's asking for your opinion here.

 

[Sahar]

I don't know why you think I'm ignoring you, because I thought I made my opinion clear several times now. IMO, even democracies should not violate fundamental human rights and freedoms, such as:

- freedom of belief and conscience
- freedom of speech and expression
- freedom from unnecessarily harsh or arbitrary laws
- security of the person, such as the right to move freely within the country and to not be murdered, assaulted, etc.

None of these things should be violated except where reasonably justified and only then through due process of law.

If you can come up with an Islamic government that will allow these things, then fine: the will of the people should be followed. But the will of the people is still secondary to these rights.

IMO, in practice, when these freedoms are protected, the result is what I would call a secular government. However, I'm open to the idea that an Islamic government would protect these things if you want to explain how.

You put certain criteria from your own perspective and you are expecting other people to follow this criteria before representing their will, otherwise, they don't have the right of representation of their will, is this reasonable?
If I said democracy comes second to God's Shari'a:

For example: When the majority, in a Western democracy, decide that the drinking age should be lowered to 13 or 14, no matter how harmful this may be, it becomes a law, because that’s what the majority of people want. Under Islamic law, the Qur’an itself prohibits drinking, so it shall be prohibited regardless of what the people want. Another example regards the rights of minorities. Suppose in a given society the majority of people, who belong to a particular race or class or group, decided to deprive minorities of their rights. Even if the constitution prohibited this, the constitution itself can be changed. So, if a decision is taken to oppress a certain minority or minorities, it could be done under democracy, theoretically at least. Yet, under an Islamic system it cannot happen because the rights of the minorities are rights which are enshrined in the Qur’an and the Prophetic tradition, and as such no human being can supersede that.

Is it reasonable to expect say Western people to follow my criterion, otherwise they don't have the right of representing their will?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You put certain criteria from your own perspective and you are expecting other people to follow this criteria before representing their will, otherwise, they don't have the right of representation of their will, is this reasonable?

They're not "criteria from my own perspective"; they're the minimum requirements for a free society. I value living in a free society; do you?

And I think it's eminently more reasonable than it is to cite your own authority to play a role in shaping your government to create a government based on the idea that nobody has the authority to shape government but God.

If I said democracy comes second to God's Shari'a:

Is it reasonable to expect say Western people to follow my criterion, otherwise they don't have the right of representing their will?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "my criterion".

 

[Sahar]

There is another problem; who will say that these criteria are necessary and shouldn't be violated?

 

[Sahar]

They're not "criteria from my own perspective"; they're the minimum requirements for a free society. I value living in a free society; do you?

Who said this?! Who will say that they are the minimum requirements for a free society and democracy is secondary to them?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who said this?!

Me. You can tell by my username on the top of the post.

 

[Sahar]

Me. You can tell by my username on the top of the post.

Great, why are you expecting other people to follow such requirements? What if they have other requirements for their definition of a free society?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Great, why are you expecting other people to follow such requirements? What if they have other requirements for their definition of a free society?

Okay - what would your requirements for a free society be?

Edit: I think that all of the rights and freedoms I listed are generally accepted. Which ones do you have an issue with?

 

[Sahar]

Penguin, you have a given society where me and you live. You think that the things that you listed are the minimal requirements for a free society and they shouldn't be violated and I think that Islamic Shari'a is the requirement for a free society and it shouldn't be violated. How can we solve this dispute? It's necessary because we need to form a government now.