Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Sahar]

I wanted to clarify this because of the arrogant tone i feel in some of the posts of this thread...like :

The U.S is not in good position to put pressure on saudi arabia !!
or
there would be no debate !!

Not to mention who believes the secular government is the only legitimate government and Muslims have no right to choose an Islamic government (of course unless every single person under it agrees). :areyoucra "You must run your life according to my views and you have no right or legitimacy to run it according to your views". How arrogant, arrogant, arrogant!!

 

[I Am]

correct.

Killing people is a very peaceful practice. :sarcastic

 

[TashaN]

ahehehe, you are right, sorry. May God bless you and your marriage.

Yeah, so soon insha'Allah, after a couple of months. I'll invite everybody in RF to my wedding.

 

[TashaN]

From what I understand he is being charged with black magic, correct? Not only that, but black magic performed on his television show which was ostensibly taped in another country... from the CNN article:

As a side note... say there was a country where 'sorcerers' ruled, where Islam was viewed in the same manner as Saudia Arabia views magic, would you be ok with a foreign Muslim visiting that country being apprehended and sentenced to death?

Forget about what CNN says.

If he didn't come to Saudi Arabia to practice whatever he been doing outside, no body would catch him and charge him with anything, because whatever happen on tv won't go direct to the court, but first will go to the ministry of communication which will discuss the matter and whether the tv presenter has broken any media rules, etc.

The thing here is as i have explained before, he got caught at his hotel when delivering the package and waiting to receive his money.

 

[kai]

Forget about what CNN says.

If he didn't come to Saudi Arabia to practice whatever he been doing outside, no body would catch him and charge him with anything, because whatever happen on tv won't go direct to the court, but first will go to the ministry of communication which will discuss the matter and whether the tv presenter has broken any media rules, etc.

The thing here is as i have explained before, he got caught at his hotel when delivering the package and waiting to receive his money.

Hi Tashan


so ok how are you with the death penalty for this?

 

[TashaN]

I can't read Arabic as you know, you said there were photos of the tools this man allegedly used to commit crimes. I saw some pieces of paper with Arabic written on them, some Pokemon dolls, some jewelry or charms, a hat that says "I heart Jesus", among other things. I saw no "tools" that could plausibly be used to harm anyone.

These tools were an example of what might be used by people like him. It has nothing to do with the case at hand as i mentioned before.

Thanks for posting the evidence according to the Saudi authorities. I have to look more closely at it, but it appears the man is still not being convicted of doing sorcery in Lebanon. Rather, he is accused of committing fraud and conspiracy to harm people using "sorcery", on Saudi territory. That is different from what I thought was the case, but there are still problems.

First of all, I'm concerned that the Saudi religious police engaged in entrapment. Second, though it would not surprise me if he was a fraud, in that case he can't be a sorcerer, so his offense was deception and taking someone's money, and the punishment should fit the crime. Third, if this TV host truly is a dark wizard a la the Harry Potter children's books ... ... then he can't be convicted of fraud, and he can't be convicted of conspiring to cast evil spells without solid, scientific proof that he actually has this power.

How about a full confession instead?

There is not a single documented case of magic or sorcery that is acceptable to the standards of rigorous, scientific evidence. I would have a very difficult time finding scientists who disagree with this.

And you won't find a difficult time on the first place believing that Shariah law's main source--Quran--which all courts in Saudi Arabia hold as law came from *God*?

You probably think I'm being so skeptical as to be closed-minded. But you have to realize, the history of human civilization is overflowing with superstition and nonsense. According to our ancestors the world was full of demons, witches, werewolves, vampires, and so on. In case after case after case, when an objective scientific approach is applied, the evil spirits vanish. We know from the agonizing experience of history that people will believe they see the influence of demons, witches, monsters, and so forth, many people will confess, even when it isn't true. You don't need to cast a spell on some people to make them go into a hysterical fit. You just have to get them to *believe* a spell has been cast on them. Imagination and superstition do the rest. I could relate countless examples of this. The weight of past experience leaves open the door that every case of supposed "sorcery" is a case of superstition and imagination. The only way to prove one way or the other would be with airtight scientific evidence, especially when a man's life, his wife and five children are at stake.

To answer your question: no, I don't believe in demons. I believe in facts and evidence. I have not seen a shred of evidence that proves this man actually harmed anyone with magical powers, or that he has the ability to do so.

Science according to many people couldn't prove that God exist. So? You complaining now about demons?

This does not necessarily have to do with my being an atheist, by the way. The Catholic Church and every enlightened Christian since the Dark Ages still occasionally admit they believe demons exist. But they are very skeptical of real-life, contemporary cases because so many have turned out to be clearly deception or self-deception. This is a documented fact, I could provide many examples if you like, it's truly fascinating and eye-opening. I don't expect you to accept jinns don't exist, but I do hope you will apply a skeptical and scientific attitude to each individual case of supposed magic or demons actually intervening in the world. Many physicists believe the three fundamental forces of physics can be combined into a single force, but they are very skeptical of anyone who claims to have discovered it. They believe such a force exists but it would take powerful evidence to prove such-and-such equation is the correct one. I think everyone, including modern-day Muslims, would gain in both wisdom and humanity to adopt this approach, especially considering ancient Muslim scholars contributed so much to science and skepticism.

Jinns are in the Quran. Quran is the word of God. Got my point?

 

[TashaN]

If the accused was confronted by authorities and "freaked out", and confessed to things they accused him of in the hopes of being spared execution, and if he later retracts the confession when he finds out they are executing him anyway, then this is not reliable proof of guilt. Amnesty International says according to the man's lawyer, the Religious Police told him if he confessed he would be allowed to go back to Lebanon. An innocent person might confess in that situation, or a guilty person might confess to crimes greater than the ones actually committed.

I never read that they promised him that they would spare him if he confessed. I would stand on his side if that was the case.

 

[TashaN]

I'm rather skeptical, Tashan. Suppose he really did read the Quran differently, it would still only prove, at absolute most, that the man believes reading it differently will do something. It does not prove this belief is true, that anyone was actually harmed or in danger of being harmed.

If the man is a charlatan and doesn't believe he can actually make these predictions, then there are ways to deal with that short of public beheading. If he believes he can actually promise simple people simple answers to all of life's problems by appearing on TV, then he is like many Christian leaders I have seen on TV and radio in the U.S. I think as a rule people should be entitled to their beliefs, the most extreme response I would use is ridicule, not state coercion or violence. From my perspective, it causes terrible harm that "simple" people are (unintentionally) deceived by Muslim leaders into believing they will earn paradise in the next life by squandering this life. On the other hand, it's not my desire or right to decide for everyone, under pain of death, what is true or false. It would be better to decapitate nonsense and superstition with a sharp wit, than decapitate the father of five children with a sharp and bloody sword.

For example, instead of Mr. Spinkles, he would say Mr. Spilnkes in purpose and only those who deal with demons change words like that. This is not just *another* way of reading the Quran.

By the way, throughout Islamic history and according to Shariah law, the magician of this sort who use demon work should be executed.

 

[TashaN]

Hi Tashan


so ok how are you with the death penalty for this?

Post # 608.

 

[kai]

Post # 608.

OK i have to say i find that sad, but i understand your reasons.

 

[Sahar]

Who says? The vast majority fo the free world.

Sorry, what the free white man says don't count to me. What is the free world going to do now? Sending their troops to teach us how to be free?! Oh, Isn't this what the free world did and still doing? Colonizing and invading other nations? As I say, invading Muslims' nations didn't come out of the blue. It reflects this arrogant mentality of the "free world".

 

[.lava]

Sorry, what the free white man says don't count to me. What is the free world going to do now? Sending their troops to teach us how to be free?! Oh, Isn't this what the free world did and still doing? Colonizing and invading other nations? As I say, invading Muslims' nations didn't come out of the blue. It reflects this arrogant mentality of the "free world".

yes, sad but true

.

 

[.lava]

Killing people is a very peaceful practice. :sarcastic

many nations do apply death penalthy

.

 

[I Am]

many nations do apply death penalthy

.

... And they shouldn't.
Not all nations are peaceful, or just.
Not all belief systems are that way.
Although I'm sure there are many Moslems who would diagree with this practice of capital punishment for hosting a "psychich" talk show.

 

[TashaN]

OK i have to say i find that sad, but i understand your reasons.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sorry, what the free white man says don't count to me. What is the free world going to do now? Sending their troops to teach us how to be free?! Oh, Isn't this what the free world did and still doing? Colonizing and invading other nations? As I say, invading Muslims' nations didn't come out of the blue. It reflects this arrogant mentality of the "free world".

I'll send a request to Obama urging him to liberate middle eastern countries, but they say, we don't *liberate* countries which have McDonald.

 

[.lava]

... And they shouldn't.
Not all nations are peaceful, or just.
Not all belief systems are that way.
Although I'm sure there are many Moslems who would diagree with this practice of capital punishment for hosting a "psychich" talk show.

i can relate with that feeling. but at the same time i am aware of certain things about myself such as: if they could manage to find people who run child porn industry for instance, i mean, from the camera men to people who kidnap or buy kids or people who put money in that business to earn money....etc basicly anyone who's related to that business except for kids...if they were all executed at once on my back yard, i could not cry a tear for them. that's what i know about myself. though i am sensitive person, i still can see there are certain conditions when you should not keep criminal alive because you can't even take the risk he repeats his crime

.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

i can relate with that feeling. but at the same time i am aware of certain things about myself such as: if they could manage to find people who run child porn industry for instance, i mean, from the camera men to people who kidnap or buy kids or people who put money in that business to earn money....etc basicly anyone who's related to that business except for kids...if they were all executed at once on my back yard, i could not cry a tear for them. that's what i know about myself. though i am sensitive person, i still can see there are certain conditions when you should not keep criminal alive because you can't even take the risk he repeats his crime

.

Oh, me too.

There are some crimes that should carry the death penalty. :yes:

 

[AxisMundi]

the thing is people really did believe in sorcery in the 7th century and if this punishment is Quranic , The Quran is proving without doubt that sorcery and demons exist ( for Muslims) so whether its next week or 100 years in the future this will be a fact to Muslims because the Quran cant be wrong. No amount of scepticism or scientific fact will alter that fact.


and by the way try not to be too eloquent with your posts:

Talking sometimes superfluously and eloquently can too be sorcery.


IslamBasics

Islam acts today much like Christianity did 500 years ago, sans colonialization and forced conversion, of course.

I think we will see an expodentially accelorated "Era of Muslim Enlightenment" in the very near future, fueled by Islam's own extremists.

 

[Caladan]

My question to Muslim members is, what are your standards for crime or capital punishment and do you regard the practices of this men to be on the level of other crimes such as rape or murder?

 

[.lava]

My question to Muslim members is, what are your standards for crime or capital punishment and do you regard the practices of this men to be on the level of other crimes such as rape or death?

i personally don't approve it. in my opinion he should be exiled and Saudi authories should make sure he knows that he would be executed next time he enters Arabia with the same purpose (if that's really the punishment of the crime in general). then Saudi should expose his face in all newspapers and all TVs to make sure their public know that this guy is completely against Islam and he is exiled from the land, would be executed in case he returns with same purpose and any Arab who wants to make deal with this guy has go outside of Arabia to do so

.