Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Perfect Circle]

I wanted to clarify this because of the arrogant tone i feel in some of the posts of this thread...like :

The U.S is not in good position to put pressure on saudi arabia !!
or
there would be no debate !!

If this has anything to do with the interchange I had with eselam earlier in the thread about how Saudi Arabia wouldn't execute a US citizen if charged with the same crime, then I'd like to clarify that a bit.

When eselam was claiming that the laws of Islam know no borders or political authority, I was only trying to illustrate that:

1) There's no caliphate or central Islamic authority to enforce such laws.
2) If the Saudi's are trying to present themselves as worldwide Islamic law enforcers (as eselam seemed to claim they were and should), then something tells me that political pressure would "bend" those laws... so to speak.


If I came off as arrogant, I apologize. :rainbow1:

 

[TashaN]

Well said lava... This is how I tend to view things. I personally find the notion that someone will be executed for sorcery abhorrent and bit silly. However, the man knew full well where he was going and what type of laws they uphold. Even though I may disagree with the laws of that land, I (as a US citizen) have no right to preach to a sovereign government about what laws are just or unjust. That's between that government and its people.

Are you really a US citizen? I'm surprised!

 

[AxisMundi]

i don't think it deserves that either. but what i think does not matter, does it? so be realistic, by that i mean, accept nations and their laws. if they don't fit you then don't go there. i am not saying this just for Saudi Arabia. that pretty much includes Western nations. if i knew i would have to wear clothes that go against my moral opinion in some nation, i would not go there. simple that is. in case i decided to go that means i accept their conditions. i am not here to change entire world into what i like to see. you should not act like a global cop either, seriously, even the greatest worldly power could not handle such a job

.

Your comments are negated one several levels.

Firstly, I seem to recall you either stating outright, or supporting, the idea that "sorcery/witchcraft", polytheism, and atheism are "sins" according to your religion. You therefor, apperently, do not support religious freedom.

Secondly, when did Saudi notify the guy that he would be arrested and tried if entering the country?

 

[I Am]

i can relate with that feeling. but at the same time i am aware of certain things about myself such as: if they could manage to find people who run child porn industry for instance, i mean, from the camera men to people who kidnap or buy kids or people who put money in that business to earn money....etc basicly anyone who's related to that business except for kids...if they were all executed at once on my back yard, i could not cry a tear for them. that's what i know about myself. though i am sensitive person, i still can see there are certain conditions when you should not keep criminal alive because you can't even take the risk he repeats his crime

.

So you're comparing a talk show host to a child pornographer? One vocation exploits and abuses individuals, another merely lies to them. Both can be considered wrong in a certain fashion, however no one is being forced to buy into the lies of the psychich program. Children however are forced into prostitution and pornography all around the world every ay.

I just don't see the comparison here.

 

[TashaN]

Your comments are negated one several levels.

Firstly, I seem to recall you either stating outright, or supporting, the idea that "sorcery/witchcraft", polytheism, and atheism are "sins" according to your religion. You therefor, apperently, do not support religious freedom.

Secondly, when did Saudi notify the guy that he would be arrested and tried if entering the country?

Before you apply for a Saudi visa to enter the country, you will receive some information of the rules in Saudi Arabia, what is accepted and what is not, what is legal and what is not, and how does their legal system work, so yeah, he knew what he was going into.

 

[AxisMundi]

Actually this thread revealed a lot arrogance ,not4me....and i believe arrogance stems from ignorance....they talk about their secular political system as if neutral....and accordingly if applied ,it won't offend anyone....their ignorance doesn't allow them to understand that secularism is not neutral to us...but rather the entire opposite of our worldview
they speak as the guardian angles of human rights...and i wonder when will they get tired of playing this role that no one swallows anymore ? when will they start minding their own business and stop peaching morality to us ?

And the most arrogant view is of those who think that science provides all the answers and solves all the riddles...and thus is worthy of becoming god instead of God...and accordingly what it can't prove ,is a superstition....someone talked about decieving people into the belief in an afterlife....not realizing that he's the decieved one

I think ali ezzat begovic' said it best ,when he said...:

Your reply hints that you have no idea what secularism is. A secular government is one that is compeltely and utterly religiously neutral, and thus provides for religious equality and freedom for all religions.

Secularism permits you, whether Sunni or Shi'a, to practice your religion in peace, within the constraints of secular law. IE you could not force a television station to stop airing a program you find offensive, you could not pass some local ordinance requiring all women regardless of their religion to wear traditional clothing, you could not force local legislation to stop gay mariages in a State that already permits them, etc.

Religious freedom does not include imposing your religion or your religious views on other people.

Your reply also illustrates your complete and utter ignorance on scientific matters. Science explains the visible Universe, it's properties, and interactions with other portions of the visible Universe including us. I know you're probrably miffed that science disproves much of your scriptures, but reality does that sometimes.

 

[AxisMundi]

Before you apply for a Saudi visa to enter the country, you will receive some information of the rules in Saudi Arabia, what is accepted and what is not, what is legal and what is not, and how does their legal system work, so yeah, he knew what he was going into.

Sorry, don't buy it.

I am quite sure that if the man believed for an isntant that he was in violation of anything listed within that information packet, he would not have entered the country and risk death.

 

[TashaN]

So you're comparing a talk show host to a child pornographer? One vocation exploits and abuses individuals, another merely lies to them. Both can be considered wrong in a certain fashion, however no one is being forced to buy into the lies of the psychich program. Children however are forced into prostitution and pornography all around the world every ay.

I just don't see the comparison here.

Ahh, speaking of children ...

The notorious US detention camp in Guantanamo Bay has been hit by fresh allegations of human rights abuses, with claims that dozens of children were sent there - some as young as 14 years old.

Lawyers in London estimate that more than 60 detainees held at the terrorists' prison camp were boys under 18 when they were captured.

They include at least 10 detainees still held at the US base in Cuba who were 14 or 15 when they were seized - including child soldiers who were held in solitary confinement, repeatedly interrogated and allegedly tortured.

The children of Guantanamo Bay - Americas, World - The Independent

What a shame! Have you ever had a thought to speak against this injustice done by your country in the name of freedom and democracy?

 

[Sahar]

Your reply hints that you have no idea what secularism is. A secular government is one that is compeltely and utterly religiously neutral, and
thus provides for religious equality and freedom for all religions...

You are exactly proving maro's point.

 

[TashaN]

Sorry, don't buy it.

lol, i don't give a damn. You take my word or leave it, it's up to you. Cowboys just love to believe what they want to believe anyhow.

 

[.lava]

Your comments are negated one several levels.

Firstly, I seem to recall you either stating outright, or supporting, the idea that "sorcery/witchcraft", polytheism, and atheism are "sins" according to your religion. You therefor, apperently, do not support religious freedom.

Secondly, when did Saudi notify the guy that he would be arrested and tried if entering the country?

let me make myself clear then.

i do support religious freedom and i don't think people deserve to die for being honest about themselves. but no sense saving yourself from punishment for being honest about how many people you killed. there has to be limits. a freedom with no limits is just anarchy. none of us could find peace in a society like that.

according to my knowledge number of paths that lead God are more than number of breaths of all creatures lived until today. according to my knowledge not what label you chose and not what dress you wear, God only looks within hearts of individuals. people are not judged simply by what they do but they are judged for what reason they do it.

and for Saudi issue, i already said that i would rather this guy was exiled with certain warning

.

 

[I Am]

Ahh, speaking of children ...



What a shame! Have you ever had a thought to speak against this injustice done by your country in the name of freedom and democracy?

This isn't about the United States vs. Islam. I'm not anti-Islam or pro-United States. I myself agree with you: I am against Guantanamo ever being opened. The US government has a lot corrupt individuals in it.

However, this doesn't exempt the Saudi government from being the same in its own regards. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[AxisMundi]

You are exactly proving maro's point.

That fundamentalist Islam, when permitted to govern a land, is compeltely and utterly deviod of religious equality and several other basic Human Rights?

Thanks for noticing.

 

[.lava]

So you're comparing a talk show host to a child pornographer? One vocation exploits and abuses individuals, another merely lies to them. Both can be considered wrong in a certain fashion, however no one is being forced to buy into the lies of the psychich program. Children however are forced into prostitution and pornography all around the world every ay.

I just don't see the comparison here.

i am sorry for misunderstanding. no, i don't mean to compare two unrelated stuff. i was just talking about death penalthy itself and i gave an example to make myself clear about it. because in general i oppose death penalthy but in certain conditions i can't defend rights of people who earned it. when i look within i can clearly see that i have a huge lack of compassion for people who run child porn industry. i just can't defend and afford those people's right to exist. so it was not meant to be subject of comparison. it is just personal; an issue that's able to make me "give in" to the idea of death penalthy

.

 

[CoolSunshine]

I am a sorcerer.Kill me saudi police.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Are you really a US citizen? I'm surprised!

Yep.. 300 million people can be pretty diverse. In the same way that I shouldn't believe everything that fox news and CNN tells me about Saudi Arabia, you shouldn't believe everything Al'Jazeera and any other news outlets tell you about the US. I prefer to form my opinions based off of the people I meet... Like yourself, TashaN.

I think you assuming that I'm a gun-toting, cross wearing, dip-spitting, war-hawking American is just as bad as me assuming that you're terrorist or something. Neither stereotype does anyone any good.

 

[maro]

Your reply hints that you have no idea what secularism is. A secular government is one that is compeltely and utterly religiously neutral, and thus provides for religious equality and freedom for all religions.

Not true....Secularism is not religiously neutral....it stems from the notion that either there's no God , or if there's , he should mind his own business and let what to cesar to cesar

There's a difference between allowing all religions to practice freely and being religiously neutral....somehow i doubt you will get my point :flirt:

Your reply also illustrates your complete and utter ignorance on scientific matters.

Really ? how is that ?

I know you're probrably miffed that science disproves much of your scriptures, but reality does that sometimes.

I see...so ,why don't you show us how science disproves much of my scripture ?...I am all ears

 

[CoolSunshine]

Not true....Secularism is not religiously neutral....it stems from the notion that either there's no God , or if there's , he should mind his own business and let what to cesar to cesar

If you say that there is God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, secularism is the best option.If you want Islamic rule,then show us where your Allah is.

 

[TashaN]

Yep.. 300 million people can be pretty diverse. In the same way that I shouldn't believe everything that fox news and CNN tells me about Saudi Arabia, you shouldn't believe everything Al'Jazeera and any other news outlets tell you about the US. I prefer to form my opinions based off of the people I meet... Like yourself, TashaN.

I think you assuming that I'm a gun-toting, cross wearing, dip-spitting, war-hawking American is just as bad as me assuming that you're terrorist or something. Neither stereotype does anyone any good.

I agree with you.

 

[TashaN]

If you say that there is God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, secularism is the best option.If you want Islamic rule,then show us where your Allah is.

If you say that there is no God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, Islamic rule is the best option.If you want secular law,then show us how Allah doesn't exist.