Man to Man... or Woman

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes but not always. Detransitions show otherwise.

They are very few in number, and the bulk majority, however, don't detransition and are much better off. It's also a given no treatment, regardless the condition, will work 100% of the time. For example, transitioning has been the greatest thing for my life and things have got SSRI treatment failed me to the point of inducing manic episodes. Even routine surgeries can have serious consequences. OTC medications can cause allergic reactions.
Again, detransitioners are a very slim minority of people who do transition. You also have to consider the reasons why people do transition. It's often due to the way we are treated by others.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Exactly. We are trans because we have dysphoria over our birth sex not katching our identified sex, amd we typically take steps to alter and adjust our appearances, legal name, and our entire lifestyle in regards to how we socialize so we can have a shot at elevating our dysphoria and possibly achieving euphoria. In other words, we are trans largely because we transition roles, to permanent ends.
Without that dysphoria its reckless and irresponsible to transition. Amd, of course, cross dressers, non-binary, deag queens, and transvestite/fetishists are not trans but something else entirely. They aren't transitioning, they may not even identify as the opposite sex.

I don't want to abduct this thread but I'd love to talk about this in another one sometime.
There are trans without dysphoria. And some of them feel like trying to define it that way reduces an identity to pain and oppression, something terfs love to do, to try and validate their experience. But being defined by pain doesn't make someone more authentically male or female, nor does it authenticate pink and blue brains. And the prefix trans doesn't stand for transitioning. Transgender just "of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth" which would include non-binary and trans who don't feel like they need to transition, but not drag queens, cross dressers et all.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Why "assigned at birth"?

Sex is biological. It's discerned at birth - not assigned.

Gender is a mental category - how someone feels/identifies. It's also not assigned and it can be recognized later (definitely not at birth).

I said 'assigned at birth' because that's the official legal and medical term for what transpires.
Sex assignment - Wikipedia

 

[PearlSeeker]

For example, transitioning has been the greatest thing for my life

I'm glad for you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't want to abduct this thread but I'd love to talk about this in another one sometime.
There are trans without dysphoria. And some of them feel like trying to define it that way reduces an identity to pain and oppression, something terfs love to do, to try and validate their experience. But being defined by pain doesn't make someone more authentically male or female, nor does it authenticate pink and blue brains. And the prefix trans doesn't stand for transitioning. Transgender just "of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth" which would include non-binary and trans who don't feel like they need to transition, but not drag queens, cross dressers et all.

If you include non-binary, then by default you'd have to include them all. Even those who identify as male, have no intention or desire to transition, but do sometimes present as female. That is entirely different than being transgender and transitioning gender/social roles.
And, transitioning without dysphoria, that is how you get regret. That is how you get men who still very much act and behave like men, and despite transitioning still plaster "new dick pics" of themselves online. Like guys do. Leaving people like me or Frank having to clean up a mess. Like a certain ex-member here who claimed to be trans but creeped out so many members I grew to hate this member because so many people were contacting me and talking to me about this member. It didn't help this member was gloating and bragging about very creepy behaviors and that are basically sexually deviant. This member even obviously lied to many people to get surgeries, because this person is not full time as their alleged identified sex. I had a roommate once, claimed to be MtF, but he ended up trying to sexually assault me, like a guy. Told him no, dozens of times at least, but despite that he still tried things.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If you include non-binary, then by default you'd have to include them all. Even those who identify as male, have no intention or desire to transition, but do present as female. That is entirely different than being transgender and transitioning gender/social roles.

I don't agree. Presenting is not the same thing as identifying (unless you're really gung ho preformativity theory but most aren't). Most crossdressrs and transvestites still identify as cis while wearing female presenting fashion. Non-binary don't have a gender identity that lines up with their assigned sex at birth. The most quintessentially trans thing there is.

And, transitioning without dysphoria, that is how you get regret. That is how you get men who still very much act and behave like men despite transitioning and posting "new dick pics" of themselves online. Like guys do. Leaving people like me or Frank having to clean up a mess. Like a certain ex-member here who claimed to be trans but creeped out so many members I grew to hate this member because so many people were contacting me and talking to me about this member. It didn't help this member was gloating and bragging about very creepy behaviors and that are basically sexually deviant. This member even obviously lied to many people to get surgeries, because this person is not full time as their alleged identified sex. I had a roommate once, claimed to be MtF, but he ended up trying to sexually assault me, like a guy. Told him no, dozens of times at least, but despite that he still tried things.

I have a feeling I know what member you're talking about.
But honestly distancing from creepy hypersexualized people is something 'non-flaming' gay people do towards 'flaming' gay people all the time. That doesn't mean the flaming people are less legitimately gay. You can still be legitimately trans and also a creep (with tons of internalized transphobia and misogyny to boot). And that sucks but nobody with honest, rational opinions is going to let a minority paint the majority. And those that will aren't going to care whether you're attempting to be a 'stand up trans figure' or not.

And besides, the best way to get people to hurry towards transitioning then be riddled with regret and detransitioning is the transgender community only being inclusive to people who have dysphoria and want to transition. Instead of letting newly questioning trans work through gender ambiguity, whether they feel gender ambiguous their entire lives, decide they're not trans, or eventually transition. If they feel like the only way they get to be valid is to **** or get off the pot (so to speak) they're going to rush transition and say whatever they need to to get there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You can still be legitimately trans and also a creep (with tons of internalized transphobia and misogyny to boot). And that sucks but nobody with honest, rational opinions is going to let a minority paint the majority. And those that will aren't going to care whether you're attempting to be a 'stand up trans figure' or not.

I wished for very horrible things to happen to this member when this person showed up in a thread where someone was attacking transpeople, and this member posted things that seemed to confirm everything this other member was saying against transpeople. Like us being bathroom and locker room pervs. That's not indications or being trans, but rather fetish behavior.

And besides, the best way to get people to hurry towards transitioning then be riddled with regret and detransitioning is the transgender community only being inclusive to people who have dysphoria and want to transition.

Self diagnosis and informed consent prescriptions of hormones are likely driving up regret and detransition more than anything (asides from poor treatment from others, that is). Instead of having to evaluate, consider, ponder, and work through things, people are able to jump straight in on a whim. That is not good. Transitioning is too major of a thing to undertake without being made to examine your life, goals, motivations, and expectations from transitioning. This opens the door wide open for people who aren't really trans but have issues in other areas, meaning transitioning is entirely inappropriate for treatment.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I wished for very horrible things to happen to this member when this person showed up in a thread where someone was attacking transpeople, and this member posted things that seemed to confirm everything this other member was saying against transpeople. Like us being bathroom and locker room pervs. That's not indications or being trans, but rather fetish behavior.

Again though, there are gay people who seem to conform to every awful stereotype about being gay, including turning homosexuality into their personal fetish by every external measure. These people are legitimately gross but not illegitimately gay because of it. So long as they still don't identify with their assigned sex at birth, I'd still call them trans. Just an awful person.
Non-binary people aren't fetishists, but they don't typically have the same dysphoria that other trans do (although some do.) And many still identify as trans, because you don't need to transition to be trans.

Self diagnosis and informed consent prescriptions of hormones are likely driving up regret and detransition more than anything (asides from poor treatment from others, that is). Instead of having to evaluate, consider, ponder, and work through things, people are able to jump straight in on a whim. That is not good. Transitioning is too major of a thing to undertake without being made to examine your life, goals, motivations, and expectations from transitioning.

I agree with all of that. But people are less likely to take their time if they feel like the community they're relying on to help them examine those things will reject them if they don't transition.

Edit: The video talks about this in part as well, at 21m32s

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So long as they still don't identify with their assigned sex at birth, I'd still call them trans. Just an awful person.
Non-binary people aren't fetishists, but they don't typically have the same dysphoria that other trans do (although some do.) And many still identify as trans, because you don't need to transition to be trans.

I know about gender non-binary and non-confirming, and I'm one of the few transpeople I've met not opposed to them and doubting who they are. I don't consider them trans. They are non-binary. Transpeople do tend to fall within normal binaries of their identify and expressions.
And if someone is sexually misbehaving like a male, they are men. No one should be forced to accept someone who is actually taking advantage of the situation, misbehaving in ways that threaten others, and being a legitimate sexual risk to others in the way males can be.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree with all of that. But people are less likely to take their time if they feel like the community they're relying on to help them examine those things will reject them if they don't transition.

This does deserve it's own point.
The trans community already largely rejects non-binary and non-conforming. Even the program director of the local trans support group voiced that he is having a difficult time accepting them, and he just doesn't get it despite his efforts. And then come the arguments made against them that are basically the same arguments made against us. But non-binary and non-conforming people answer them slightly differently, with more conviction that things aren't black and white. But despite that, most trans people it seems do not accept people who are non-binary and non-conforming. It often looks like the same "make up your mind" crap that gets thrown at bisexuals. And much like how bisexuals are not gay, non-binary and non-confirming are not trans, but equally deserving of understanding and acceptance of who they are without the opposition and doubt, especially most of all from the trans community who knows first hand that same doubt and opposition.

 

[nPeace]

As far as I am aware, that the universe had a beginning is the current scientific consensus.

I have always read that idea that the universe always existed is not supported by the evidence, yet surprising to me, there are scientist who continue to support the idea, along with the idea that an eternally existing universe, just for no explained reason, started to expand, and at a rate greater than the speed of light, and then for another unexplained reason applied the brakes, to attain considerably lesser rates.

The steady state universe theory is dead, but some are trying to resurrect it, it seems.
While the steady-state model enjoyed some minority support in the scientific mainstream until the mid-20th century, it is now rejected by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers, as the observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict

This is why, when persons make the argument about science having a final say on matters, I find it humorous.
Either what is being called science is not, or scientists today have lost respect for science. Or... the fact remains, science is an ongoing study, which is inconclusive.

 

[ppp]

This is why, when persons make the argument about science having a final say on matters, I find it humorous.
Either what is being called science is not, or scientists today have lost respect for science. Or... the fact remains, science is an ongoing study, which is inconclusive.

I think you are confusing "final say" for an acknowledgement that science is the only game in town with a demonstrated methodology for reliably uncovering the best explanation based upon the available evidence. And that when science is wrong, that the only method of discovering that fact (and correcting the record) is additional science.

 

[nPeace]

That's a good one.

I don't know. I'm aware that male and female brains work and think differently. Is genetics responsible for that? I'm not sure.

You know this!? Interesting. How so?
Be careful. You don't want to have anyone accuse you of sexism. Isn't that a form of discrimination?

I believe we acquire traits from our parents. Not all.
How that happens, is through the blood.
Some children are just like their parent(s) - inherited, and learned.
Sometimes we hear persons ask, 'Why is this child so strong-headed, and insistent on grtting their way?'
Sometimes the answer comes back, 'They are just like...'
Have you ever heard this while growing up?

 

[nPeace]

I think you are confusing "final say" for an acknowledgement that science is the only game in town with a demonstrated methodology for reliably uncovering the best explanation based upon the available evidence. And that when science is wrong, that the only method of discovering that fact (and correcting the record) is additional science.

No. I am not confused.
If science could answer every question in town, I would be inclined to agree with you.

When people think that science answers all possible questions, they are not reasonably accepting the limits of science... imo.

So when it keeps failing - that is, findings being revised, and throwing out the best explanation, another explanation is always still, the best.

It sort of reminds me of school days, when this one 'kid' was always, the best - no matter what he failed at.

 

[nPeace]

And as I pointed out to you, you have to take in the entirety of that Wiki article, but here you are cherry picking and posting what can support your position as lomg as we don't include the rest of the article. Like that article pointing out it's a very small amount who detransition. It's in there, but not the parts you're quoting.

It's not a wiki article.
It's quite long, so I can't post the whole thing.
If you disagree with any of the points, then you are free to point out how they are not what the article is really saying.
Which parts do you think I should pick out, which I left out?

No. They didn't. Ive helped several of my own previous healthcare providers in Indiana regarding transgender issues, who providers are in the area who specialize in it, and some general questions about it because I wasn't their only trans-patient.

One out of millions. I'm sure you are not speaking for all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not a wiki article.
It's quite long, so I can't post the whole thing.
If you disagree with any of the points, then you are free to point out how they are not what the article is really saying.
Which parts do you think I should pick out, which I left out?


One out of millions. I'm sure you are not speaking for all.

Not all, but many. Especially those living in rural areas where access to trans services are likely limited with there being very few specialists around, if any at all.

 

[ppp]

No. I am not confused.
If science could answer every question in town, I would be inclined to agree with you.

When people think that science answers all possible questions, they are not reasonably accepting the limits of science... imo.

As I did not say that science could answer every question, you are confused. Or intentionally lying. Are you Team Jesus or Team Paul on the subject of lying? I won't try to guess which.

What I said was that science is the only game in town with a demonstrated methodology for reliably uncovering the best explanation based upon the available evidence. And when science is wrong, the only method of discovering that fact (and correcting the record) is additional science.

 

[nPeace]

Here is a great source for info. It's backed by tons of research (all of which is cited) and it gives a decent picture of where studies into trans people really is lacking.
Standards of Care - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Surely, you do not expect me to read all of that.
On a thread like this, is there nothing you can share from the book, which you may be familiar with... or point out a few paragraphs?
When quoting material external to RF, even if it is your own, always provide a citation and limit your quotation to a paragraph or two rather than quoting the entire content (see Rule 4 for additional guidelines).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Surely, you do not expect me to read all of that.
On a thread like this, is there nothing you can share from the book, which you may be familiar with... or point out a few paragraphs?
When quoting material external to RF, even if it is your own, always provide a citation and limit your quotation to a paragraph or two rather than quoting the entire content (see Rule 4 for additional guidelines).

That's typically for quoting a website. I gave you what is basically a massive collection of research. Where would I even begin to quote something?
And, by the way, it's a very quick and easy read and is written for a broad and general audience, is of an average reading level and requires no prior knowledge of gender dysphoria or psychology. And with the sheer amount of research that build it, you probably won't find a better source if majoring in psych and spending years studying the topic of GD isn't a plan of yours. And it covers just about every aspect and facet and question you could think of, and does point out where research is lacking.

 

[nPeace]

As I did not say that science could answer every question, you are confused. Or intentionally lying. Are you Team Jesus or Team Paul on the subject of lying? I won't try to guess which.

Did I say you said anything of the sort? Wow though. What are people on these forums eating?
Forget I said that.

What I said was that science is the only game in town with a demonstrated methodology for reliably uncovering the best explanation based upon the available evidence. And when science is wrong, the only method of discovering that fact (and correcting the record) is additional science.

I know what you said dude. I can read. Lighten up.
Was it something I said?