Man to Man... or Woman

[ppp]

Did I say you said anything of the sort? Wow though. What are people on these forums eating?
Forget I said that.

Thanks for answering my question.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you have no data, then you are giving an opinion, as though it is fact, when it is not. True?
Medical treatment is given with intent to aid the ailing. That does not mean that it does.
We have many examples where the treatment failed. Doctors are not gods. Correct?

I'll come back. This is another example when I talked about the detransition counter argument.

There are examples where doctors treatments have failed, but how does that weaken the point that many treatments have not?

Treatments help relieve and/or cure symptoms or illness, right?

Do you need data for this or?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you seem to be asking is, does the bible explore the realms of chromosome abnormality? Of course not. The bible does not distinguish gender and sex in relation to people.

How do you have an opinion against it when the Bible doesn't talk about it?

Gender dysphoria is a medical illness. How is it a fad?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why should it ever be right? Only if someone had a strictly physical disability would it ever be right.

Because it's not harming others or the person receiving treatment for their psychological diagnosed disability.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you regard as "psychological distress" I classify as demon possession. By your logic, you would walk right on by someone about to jump off a bridge on the basis that it's their right to relieve their psychological distress by killing themselves. You don't expel demons by doing what they demand but by resisting their demands. "Resist the devil" James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:9, 1 Corinthians 6:18,2 Timothy 2:22 &etc.

Demons as in red bodied entities with horns? (Honest question)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Disabling enought for what? I never said people should be allowed to kill themselves. It was someone else said people should be able to do what they want when they are psychologically distressed.

The medical books for psychiatric disorders are different than those who break the law and perfectly sound. Someone who is psychologically stressed who kill others, let's say, may be perfectly sound. They may not have medical disorders that would "make" them kill; it's their choice. On the other hand if someone suffers from a medical disorder say depression or gender dysphoria, it goes by different criteria. Why? Because the psychological stress causes people to commit suicide and do things that harm themselves and maybe others. So, unlike killing by choice which is against the law (there is no treatment because there is no illness) when someone has psychological distress from a psychiatric disorder, they get treated. In gender dysphoria, many transgender (those who suffer from it) choose with their doctors different options to relieve their psychological symptoms. These treatments "help" the person have a better sense a self and can interact in his or her environment better. This is totally different than someone who commits murder because of psychiatric distress--Unless that psychiatric distress is caused by an mental illness and not say stubbing one's toe.

Majority of people who kill themselves may have psychiatric illnesses. They get treatment. Many who do kill themselves have gender dysphoria. Depending on the illness will suggest what treatments are best for the person. Medication can help treat depression. Changing one's environment if it's situational like being in an abusive household....and so forth. Likewise with gender dysphoria. Some people have it strong. Some don't. But surgery is a huge option and it's a treatment not a choice that people take so they don't fall into depression and commit suicide.

I'm not sure how that is wrong, though.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why should it ever be right? Only if someone had a strictly physical disability would it ever be right.

Mental illness can also be debilitating.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What you regard as "psychological distress" I classify as demon possession. By your logic, you would walk right on by someone about to jump off a bridge on the basis that it's their right to relieve their psychological distress by killing themselves. You don't expel demons by doing what they demand but by resisting their demands. "Resist the devil" James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:9, 1 Corinthians 6:18,2 Timothy 2:22 &etc.

Very fortunately medicine and science have not accepted demonic possession for a long time now.
And if it happens, those demons are so pathetically weak that mere medications designed and made by human hands will weaken them and act as a crutch to help a patient begin the healing process.
We are humans. We are animals. No demons required.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'll come back. This is another example when I talked about the detransition counter argument.

There are examples where doctors treatments have failed, but how does that weaken the point that many treatments have not?

Treatments help relieve and/or cure symptoms or illness, right?

Do you need data for this or?

It is interesting this is one of the very few things they focus on failures.
If they knew about psychology and psychiatry, they would know how very serious side effects, complications, and failed treatments can be. Tardive dyskinesia, suicidal thoughts, manic episodes, things can get hairy when psychotropic treatment is pursued. But of course the focus is placed on those who transgender people who detransition or kill themselves. Not the fact the even routine surgery has been the death of some.

 

[eik]

Very fortunately medicine and science have not accepted demonic possession for a long time now.
And if it happens, those demons are so pathetically weak that mere medications designed and made by human hands will weaken them and act as a crutch to help a patient begin the healing process.
We are humans. We are animals. No demons required.

My relpy is as per Christ in Matt 19:11“Not everyone can accept this word but only those to whom it has been given."

Even the Old Testament records the demonic possession of Saul being able to be relieved by music.

1Sa 16:23

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.​

 

[eik]

Mental illness can also be debilitating.

It's from biblical authority that evil spirits can cause delibitating illnesses. (Matt 8:16 etc).

 

[eik]

The medical books for psychiatric disorders are different than those who break the law and perfectly sound. Someone who is psychologically stressed who kill others, let's say, may be perfectly sound. They may not have medical disorders that would "make" them kill; it's their choice. On the other hand if someone suffers from a medical disorder say depression or gender dysphoria, it goes by different criteria. Why?

Why? Because it's deemed politically correct TODAY. Yesterday, is was deemed a psychiatric illness.

You can't have a theological discussion about such matters without taking into account that today, "political science" has made it imperative for modern psychiatrists to stop diagnosing psychiatric issues in many who would under biblical theology be classified as possessed by evil spirits, and who would in days gone by be assessed as profoundly disturbed psychologically.

It essentially means that in spiritual terms, those with evil spirits are today being thrown to the wolves by our politicians for the sake of electoral advantages.

Because the psychological stress causes people to commit suicide and do things that harm themselves and maybe others. So, unlike killing by choice which is against the law (there is no treatment because there is no illness) when someone has psychological distress from a psychiatric disorder, they get treated. In gender dysphoria, many transgender (those who suffer from it) choose with their doctors different options to relieve their psychological symptoms. These treatments "help" the person have a better sense a self and can interact in his or her environment better. This is totally different than someone who commits murder because of psychiatric distress--Unless that psychiatric distress is caused by an mental illness and not say stubbing one's toe.

I would arge that murder of self under the influence of evil spirits is only degrees removed from murder of others under the influence of evil spirits. Attempting suicide used to be a criminal offence.

Majority of people who kill themselves may have psychiatric illnesses. They get treatment. Many who do kill themselves have gender dysphoria. Depending on the illness will suggest what treatments are best for the person. Medication can help treat depression. Changing one's environment if it's situational like being in an abusive household....and so forth. Likewise with gender dysphoria. Some people have it strong. Some don't. But surgery is a huge option and it's a treatment not a choice that people take so they don't fall into depression and commit suicide.

I'm not sure how that is wrong, though.

As as I implied to another poster, biblical theology and modern psychology are today so far apart that there can be no pretence at any form of harmony. You either believe one, or the other.

Matt 19:11“Not everyone can accept this word,” Jesus answered, “but only those to whom it has been given."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My relpy is as per Christ in Matt 19:11“Not everyone can accept this word but only those to whom it has been given."

Even the Old Testament records the demonic possession of Saul being able to be relieved by music.

1Sa 16:23

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.​

Demonic possession isn't real, and again it's very fortunate medicine and science no longer accept it. The Necronomicon records the Great Old Ones as being real, and it's very fortunate they aren't.

It's from biblical authority that evil spirits can cause delibitating illnesses. (Matt 8:16 etc).

It also says pi is 3, the world is flat and fixed, pigeons blood is safe for a purification/healing ritual, claims the entire world was flooded, and a man was swallowed by a giant fish/whale and lived inside for multiple days. But we actually know pi is an approximation of 3.14.....; we know the Earth is spheroid, spinning on an axis and revolving around the sun and hurtling through the Cosmos at over a thousand kilometers an hour; we know blood exposure is terribly unhygienic and should generally not be considered safe; there is no evidence of a single global flood (and we know the Arc simply wouldn't have been large enough for the task or sea worthy); we know humans cannot live for days without oxygen and many large whales have throats too small to swallow us, and those that can would tear us to shreds before swallowing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You can't have a theological discussion about such matters without taking into account that today, "political science" has made it imperative for modern psychiatrists to stop diagnosing psychiatric issues in many who would under biblical theology be classified as possessed by evil spirits, and who would under days gone by be assessed as profoundly disturbed psychologically.

Theological discussions have no place in medicine and science. And you are very wrong. People still get diagnosed with whatever disorder they have. You want to say it's demons, but it's not. And that is why such things have no place in medicine and science. It begins with an assumption and refuses to update itself when demonstrated it is wrong.

I would arge that murder of self under the influence of evil spirits is only degrees removed from murder of others under the influence of evil spirits.

We also have more empathy in the field than that. I could never even begin imaging telling a grieving family their lost loved one is hardly better than a murderer. I mean, I struggle with it having Asperger's Syndrome, but even to me that one is a no-brainer.

As as I implied to another poster, biblical theology and modern psychology are today so far apart that there can be no pretence at any form of harmony. You either believe one, or the other.

And it's so great and wonderful they are. (but not as much as you think - many clinicians and clients certainly do believe the Bible and accept psychology) Biblical theology left me morbidly depressed and suicidal. But I was fortunate enough to survive it. Many are not.
The Bible is simply ill suited for describing and explaining human psychology.

 

[PearlSeeker]

As as I implied to another poster, biblical theology and modern psychology are today so far apart that there can be no pretence at any form of harmony. You either believe one, or the other.

Some Biblical perceptions and explanations are just dated. Today's exorcists know the difference between demonic possessions and mental and medical issues e.g. epileptic attack.

 

[eik]

Some Biblical perceptions and explanations are just dated. Today's exorcists know the difference between demonic possessions and mental and medical issues e.g. epileptic attack.

Try telling that to Christ.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Try telling that to Christ.

Nothing to tell. Jesus just used the then frames.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Try telling that to Christ.

Christ isn't from the 21st century and wouldn't know current medical treatments like seizures and depression that in the US and in parts other places that some say warranted a visit to the psych ward (1930s maybe). He didn't know about gender dysphoria (we're still learning) and other medical illness. He is basically ignorant.

I'm not sure if you're one to forego medical treatment for all people, but you can't isolate one psychiatric disorder for another.

Saving people from suicide is a good thing. Many transgender commit suicide because of views like yours. Wouldn't it help to help transgender so they won't commit suicide instead of having opinions that are detrimental to their health?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you believe mental health and psychiatric disorders to be a fad and people who suffer from them and their treatment is against the bible?

Maybe you can give me an idea of what I experience during my seizure at a church when the practitioners thought I had the holy spirit in them (update from demons, thank god!)

Why? Because it's deemed politically correct TODAY. Yesterday, is was deemed a psychiatric illness.

The terms may be new. Transitioning treatment most likely new since we're still learning.

Gender dysphoria is not. How can psychiatric illnesses be politically correct?

They're just illnesses just as epilepsy, cancer, chronic depression, and schizophrenia. What deserves GD special attention?

You can't have a theological discussion about such matters without taking into account that today, "political science" has made it imperative for modern psychiatrists to stop diagnosing psychiatric issues in many who would under biblical theology be classified as possessed by evil spirits, and who would in days gone by be assessed as profoundly disturbed psychologically.

My point exactly. Psychiatric issues includes gender dysphoria. Why use the bible to judge the morality of the illness and treatment when "theological discussion about such matters (doesn't take into account what we have) today?"

Good question: it is imperative for modern psychiatrist to stop diagnosing psychiatric issues in many who would under biblical....

So, why does gender dysphoria any different under treatment when psychiatry shouldn't deem any medical condition under biblical laws?

It essentially means that in spiritual terms, those with evil spirits are today being thrown to the wolves by our politicians for the sake of electoral advantages.

Take away politicians. Medical and psychiatric disorders and treatments have nothing to do with politics.

I would argee that murder of self under the influence of evil spirits is only degrees removed from murder of others under the influence of evil spirits. Attempting suicide used to be a criminal offence.

Still a bit off with evil spirits. Sounds horror film like to me. Are they entities like Casper? A feeling? A seizure? What are evil spirits and what is evil as well?

As as I implied to another poster, biblical theology and modern psychology are today so far apart that there can be no pretence at any form of harmony. You either believe one, or the other.

So you cannot judge psychiatric illnesses like gender dysphoria with biblical theology. They just don't match.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you have no data, then you are giving an opinion, as though it is fact, when it is not. True?
Medical treatment is given with intent to aid the ailing. That does not mean that it does.
We have many examples where the treatment failed. Doctors are not gods. Correct?

Do you believe that treatments aid people more than they haven't?

This is subjective opinions. We do not know how people really feel. They may tell us one thing, but the reality may be something else. Or they may feel one way now, and then feel another later.
The data, I presented to you shows this to be the case, and it also says, that without follow ups, there can be no way of knowing long-term results statistically.
I don't think you would recommend people follow trans around and ask them how they feel after every year.
They might not feel like celebrities pursued by Paparazzi.

That would mean the doctors shouldn't take into account patients feelings and symptoms because they may say one thing but in reality it may be something else?

I listened to Rival, Shadow Wolf, and am willing to listen to you. as I told Rival, sometimes we are deceived by our own feelings. We may not want to call them feelings, but listening to all of you, and hearing what the experts are saying, we would be mistaken to push feelings under the carpet, or under the bed, like we do, when we don't want to cleanup, and we don't want others to see, what we are trying to hide.

Sometimes we are deceived by feelings. The thing if what the experts say about, say, gender dysphoria has enough symptoms for physical, psychiatric, and lifestyle treatment, who would disregard that patients feelings when considering what is medically (rather than morally-has no place in the office) right for that patients bill of health?

I have an open mind. An open mind does not mean believing any and everything. Nor does it mean, closing one's mind to anything. It involves taking into consideration all things - good, and bad.

Would you recommend I ignore the data, while listening to other people? Why?

Doctors look at data and listen to people. It seems like you're tossing people to the side for having opinions and deceived feelings and keeping with data. Since we're still learning about depression, if going by data and not opinions and symptoms mental illness symptoms have a array of overlaps.

Feelings, opinions, facts from patients are crucial for diagnosis. Data alone just doesn't work. Any doctor would tell you that.

Is it not true, sometimes we think we are right, even when there are other factors that may say to the contrary?

In general. Yes. If applying to gender dysphoria, I'd say all people who suffer it know their own feelings and facts on the matter. The doctor can help them sort the physical and mental symptoms based on the data they have "and" patients complaints and opinions.

Of course treatment varies depending on the person's situation.

What do you think of psychological and emotional issues affecting children by the thousands. Do you think early childhood problems do affect how one may think and feel growing into adulthood?

Yes. Think about depression. If I go to the doctor and say I'm going to commit suicide and my face looks distorted and I am fat, the doctor isn't going to dismiss these feelings for data. These things are symptoms of an illness. The data was put together in part from patients.

Are you saying with this topic that people with gender dysphoria are having feelings that deceive them from what they should actually feel about their own gender, sex, and body?

Do I agree with doctors, not listening to patients, you mean?
Did you hear what I said? Did I not say that doctors listen to patients, and ask leading questions, then carry out their own tests? What do you think my answer is?

I was asking do patients opinions and complaints have any say in a doctor's diagnosis?

Physically? Is something hurting them in their body?
Mentally. I will again quote the articles...
It's important to remember that hormone therapy is only one of the treatments for gender dysphoria. Others include voice therapy and psychological support. The decision to have hormone therapy will be taken after a discussion between you and your clinic team.

They all go together. Gender dysphoria is the disconnection, for lack of better words, from the mind's view of the body and self and how one feels within one's body (which is apart from the mind) in how they find who they are as man or woman.

Many do go through gender dysphoria treatments like surgery. I heard that there is a whole process involved that includes voice therapy and psychological support. HRT, and other things. It's agreed upon by patient and doctor how to go about treatments, the side effects, and how it will affect their lives so the patient can live a better and healthier lives as how they psychologically perceive themselves as male or female.

A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’.

As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

I don't know much about surgical treatment for GD, if any. I do know it's a psychiatric illness so it makes sense that or any other appropriate treatment would help lend relief from physical and mental symptoms of an illness.

I'm not sure why surgical treatment is a bad option, though. It's not ideal for all transgender, and yes sometimes there's a failure rate if one likes, but that shouldn't discredit the many who have benefit from the treatment. If god agrees with them (instead of man, let's say), they'd go with what god said.

Should we not give transgender surgical treatment because data says X amount of people failed from it?

There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition.

I wouldn't say that's wrong. Why can't patient's complaints and symptoms be one leading factor to determine treatment?

We're still learning and gathering more data but how does that out way those who have benefit from what we learned so far?

I hope you see my answer in there.
I surely would never recommend things that are harmful to individuals, whether it be physical - such as drugs (like puberty blockers), or extreme discomforting measure like wearing things that squeeze body parts, etc., emotionally - going through life focused on one's physical appearance (which add to more emotional pain, and frustrations), worrying about other issues related to that - including acceptance, nor spiritually.

What about things like these treatments that can prevent people from harming others and themselves, taking drugs and doing extreme measures against their physical and mental health?

Are puberty blockers 100% harmful to individuals?

It may work for some people but not others, though it would be very unlikely to find doctors just giving these thing without careful consideration just as any drug. I used a control substance for seizures. It affects my liver or kidneys (can't remember which-doctor told) but the benefits outweighed the risk. The medication became toxic and it took me a year to get off of them. Risks versus benefits. Do you think majority of doctors know what they're doing?

As for spiritually, of course they all relate. Those transgender who are spiritual, say christian, most likely consult god or christ about these issues in prayer. Like any illness, religious tend to go to the source(s) they feel comfortable and will help their mental, physical, and spiritual (all combined) wellbeing.

Do you agree spiritual has a mind and body factor in this?

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