Man to Man... or Woman

[nPeace]

They all go together. Gender dysphoria is the disconnection, for lack of better words, from the mind's view of the body and self and how one feels within one's body (which is apart from the mind) in how they find who they are as man or woman.

Many do go through gender dysphoria treatments like surgery. I heard that there is a whole process involved that includes voice therapy and psychological support. HRT, and other things. It's agreed upon by patient and doctor how to go about treatments, the side effects, and how it will affect their lives so the patient can live a better and healthier lives as how they psychologically perceive themselves as male or female.

Are you experiencing physical pain?

I wouldn't say that's wrong. Why can't patient's complaints and symptoms be one leading factor to determine treatment?

We're still learning and gathering more data but how does that out way those who have benefit from what we learned so far?

I covered that in my earlier post (one you haven't gotten around to).

What about things like these treatments that can prevent people from harming others and themselves, taking drugs and doing extreme measures against their physical and mental health?

Can you give examples please?

Are puberty blockers 100% harmful to individuals?

100% harmful? What does that mean?

It may work for some people but not others, though it would be very unlikely to find doctors just giving these thing without careful consideration just as any drug. I used a control substance for seizures. It affects my liver or kidneys (can't remember which-doctor told) but the benefits outweighed the risk. The medication became toxic and it took me a year to get off of them. Risks versus benefits. Do you think majority of doctors know what they're doing?

Yes. Drugs do have their side effects, but they were designed to help with the problem.
Doctors - most of them - usually know what they are doing. More specifically, they know what to do, with what they are given. Sometimes, it's more a matter of not wanting to, or wanting to do something

As for spiritually, of course they all relate. Those transgender who are spiritual, say christian, most likely consult god or christ about these issues in prayer. Like any illness, religious tend to go to the source(s) they feel comfortable and will help their mental, physical, and spiritual (all combined) wellbeing.

Do you agree spiritual has a mind and body factor in this?

...

I'll quote scripture in answer to that.
(Proverbs 17:22) . . .A joyful heart is good medicine,...
(Proverbs 14:30) . . .A calm heart is the life of the fleshly organism,...

 

[nPeace]

Because this is a debate forum?

Oh? We should be obsessed with counterargument, even creating them where they don't exist, because this is a debate forum....
???

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because this is a debate forum?

Whaaaa? Are you serious?

 

[nPeace]

I think I mixed up your quotes. I hope you can follow them and the answers.



@Shadow Wolf or Frank will have to answer that. Doctors wouldn't just go by data (which comes from patients as well) but with these opinions and experiences transgender have.

Mentally. I will again quote the articles...
It's important to remember that hormone therapy is only one of the treatments for gender dysphoria. Others include voice therapy and psychological support. The decision to have hormone therapy will be taken after a discussion between you and your clinic team.

A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’.

As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

I'm not factually sure why it would become a key goal. Many doctors see how non-transition and treatment (even without it) is causing symptoms like suicide etc to where they are ethically determined to find relief for symptoms by any means they know has worked (and there are many-failures don't invalidate that) and continue to improve on those treatments.

I know Shadow mentioned that not all transgender do get surgical treatment, so I assume to many it's not a key goal but it does depend on their symptoms and how they feel about themselves later as opposed how they currently feel without the treatment. Whether first alternative or last, if it helps, I wouldn't know wrong with it.

There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition.

I hope you see my answer in there.

I surely would never recommend things that are harmful to individuals, whether it be physical - such as drugs (like puberty blockers), or extreme discomforting measure like wearing things that squeeze body parts, etc., emotionally - going through life focused on one's physical appearance (which add to more emotional pain, and frustrations), worrying about other issues related to that - including acceptance, nor spiritually.

That said, I must say this:
The world is in a mess, in the first place, because of persons leaving the creator's standards of right and wrong.
People are groaning in pain - the whole creation, actually.
Sometimes... Oftentimes, we make things more difficult for ourselves - for a number of reasons. One of those reasons involves our birth. We don't get to choose where we are born, or with what. So trauma can hit us, and in most cases, do hit us - sometimes quite hard, and that can affect the rest of our lives.
The thing is, we don't have to remain on that path. We have the choice to a life that we really need, but may think otherwise, or not realize it.
Jesus offers us the opportunity to relieve our burden. (Matthew 11:28-30)
I think that's the best choice.
Did you by any chance get invited to our "Always Rejoice" Convention, this year?

Sorry. Not able to follow. There is an Edit button at the end of the post. Please can you edit it to reflect proper dialog.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh? We should be obsessed with counterargument, even creating them where they don't exist, because this is a debate forum....
???

Hiw debate works:
A claim is made. Supporting arguments made.
A counter claim is made. The original claim and supporting arguments are challenged, and new points of support pht forth
A counterclaim is made to rebuttal the new points and reinforce the orginal point.
A counterclaim is made to challenge those points.
A counterclaim is made....
A counterclaim is made....
A counterclaim is made....
And for some topics still after thousands of years of debate the very next step is:
A counterclaim is made.
Of course there is more to it, amd indeed upon hearing an opponents new points one may even have to adjust their own points on the fly. Sometimes minds are changed. Often time though better understandings are reached. But for as long as there are humans there will always be a counterpoint that follows.

 

[nPeace]

Depression basically is total body symptoms. It wrecks mind and body. As does anxiety. Myself, I've been detached from life for most of mine, drifting aimlessly, no goals, ambition, or drive. I came to a realization the other day as my dad was watching some TV show with a guy saying "I've always wanted to be...(whatever it was he said after that)." Amd I realized a big problem I'm having now in figuring out a "rest of my life" is because before a few years ago I always wanted to be dead. Now I don't, I'm enjoying life, like being alive, and figuring out things I just never had the desire, energy, or will to consider previously.

Depression basically is total body symptoms.
Really SW? Did you just make that up? Come now. We are not in a school playground.

 

[nPeace]

Hiw debate works:
A claim is made. Supporting arguments made.
A counter claim is made. The original claim and supporting arguments are challenged, and new points of support pht forth
A counterclaim is made to rebuttal the new points and reinforce the orginal point.
A counterclaim is made to challenge those points.
A counterclaim is made....
A counterclaim is made....
A counterclaim is made....
And for some topics still after thousands of years of debate the very next step is:
A counterclaim is made.
Of course there is more to it, amd indeed upon hearing an opponents new points one may even have to adjust their own points on the fly. Sometimes minds are changed. Often time though better understandings are reached. But for as long as there are humans there will always be a counterpoint that follows.

Speaker A - There are good doctors.
Speaker B -There are bad doctors.
Explain the counter argument.
Is speaker B saying there are no good doctors?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Depression basically is total body symptoms.
Really SW? Did you just make that up? Come now. We are not in a school playground.

I did not make it up. Depression can cause symptoms throught the entire body. Such as experiencing physical aches and pains, or existing aches and pains becoming worse. It can cause debilitating fatigue. Lack of appetite or excessive hunger.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Speaker A - There are good doctors.
Speaker B -There are bad doctors.
Explain the counter argument.
Is speaker B saying there are no good doctors?

Saying "there are bad doctors" is not saying "there are no good doctors." It would be assumption, but the wording implies speaker B is saying that bad doctors do exist. That doesn't mean they are all bad or there are no good ones.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I covered that in my earlier post (one you haven't gotten around to).

Which post? I'm going down the list by least recents

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh? We should be obsessed with counterargument, even creating them where they don't exist, because this is a debate forum....
???

It exists, nPeace, and you gave another example of it. It's just no longer relevant to the convo. Some things in long conversations we just have to take the other's word for it. If not, we'd be question each other's points about our opinions agreed or disagreed because we don't trust each other about what the other party said.

Makes the conversation kind of longer than it needs to be, yes?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I never said or implied disorders were unreal. Demonic possession is real. People do and have died from it. Check out Anneliese Michel.


I have no idea and not am qualified to comment, but seizures are often associated with epilepsy or other disorders.


You're still learning from politicians how to be political correct. That will never cease. I learn from God that transitioning is not authorized by the bible or by the spirit of God. What God has made, let not man unmake it.


Because politicians have declared them to be politically correct, which in large measure is why they proliferate so much today, whereas they did not in the past.


You tell me why GD (not that I admit it exists in terms) deserves special attention that people are allowed to mutilate themselves at tax payers' expense.


Why? Because on the day of judgement, all the politicians will be dead, and you will be faced with being judged by God. Answering that the politicians said "I'd done nothing wrong" is not going to stand you in good stead with God, if in fact the reason why you became possessed by such a spirit in the first place was because of your own sin and hatred of God.


As I said, you can either recognize an evil spirit as an evil spirit, and something to be cast out, in whatever way is suitable, or you can hearken to the politicians who do not recognize spiritual issues and only desire to be re-elected, like the Pharisees, so that all men will think well of them.

We're talking at cross purposes OK. You either are a Christian, and you take the Christian approach, or you don't. It's that simple.

I'll come back but I wanted to focus more on the demon and evil spirit thing. I don't know what a spirit is, demons (outside the movies), and evil in the sense of religion.

So when you say and reference to demons, spirits, and evil it has no affect on me both understanding and context.

That said, you said it's spirits that control you?

What do you mean by that?

The bible talks about spirits etc assuming the reader already knows what it is describing. Since not everyone is familiar with the bible (beyond just a read as other books just the same), there needs to be some clarification.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm making an exception here, only this once, because I don't usually repeat anything I posted earlier, which someone doesn't take the time to look at, and respond to, but ask questions that are easily answered in the post (I took time to create)... they don't have time to consider.

Should I skip these links? I thought I answered your other post (late) after I said "did I forget about your post". Of course I'd ask questions about this. So, should I?

No. It would mean that doctors do not rely solely on what a patient may think they know.

I mean, why go do the doctor, if you already know what the cause of your problem is?

That's the job of the doctor. If the patient wants to do the doctor's job, they can stay at home, and doctor themselves. Right?

They rely on patients for part diagnosis not ask patients for diagnosis. The patients are part of the diagnosis but the doctor determines it based on a number of factors-and patient complaints are a huge part of it.

Patients complaints are part of the diagnosis not used as the diagnosis itself. So, if someone is transgender and going for diagnosis, they'd explain how they feel, physical and mental symptoms and the doctor will use these things and his skills (not either or) to derive a diagnosis. That's for all illnesses.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, but the reason you are being offered the recommended 'health care', is because the World Health Organization, and other health agencies, are taking your feelings into consideration, and want you to be comfortable, as they believe that will prevent you "going off the deep end".
As was quoted earlier, "Better a live girl, than a dead boy." and visa versa.
In so doing though, is the "right" and "necessary" treatment being administered?
You'll have to address my earlier post for info on that.

I addressed all your posts I remember. One of them was long but I thought I got back to it late. You'd have to give me a post number since I went through the list and figuring out which one. I know you did a long post that I replied to and had to cut in half in two posts. Did you get that?

How am I tossing people to the side? Please explain.

It seems like you're disregarding people's feelings and opinions in diagnosis for data and facts.

For example, a therapist of mine once told me that therapist do believe that people having delusions of hearing voices "actually" hear voices. They're not lying or anything like that. They are actually reacting to auditory stimuli and are treated because their reactions are detrimental to their health and their and/or others well being and concern. So, they treat in part what the patient says. Also, it helps with insurance purposes for proper diagnosis.

Facts from patients? Facts from patients???
Do you mean like...
"Doc, my head hurts." Or "Doc, I need a strong drug for this headache."
"Doc, I'm really not a girl." Or "Doc, you need to give me some manhood so that I can really be what I am."
Of course, you can, and should, tell the doctor how you feel, or what you are experiencing, but, the facts are not what you think is necessary.
Some people think they need meth too. Do you think we should give them because that's what they think they need to feel better.(Not being insensitive to your feelings. I'm only reasoning)

The "doc I'm really not a girl" I don't agree it's that simple. Like depression, it's not "hey doc, I think I'm depressed." It's more the complaints match the illness and if it's appropriate to the doctors skills "and" patients complaints, the "doctor" diagnosis the patient with gender dysphoria not the patient (what your example was earlier). Just my point to add is that the patients complaints are part of the diagnosis but of course for ethical and insurance purposes not the diagnosis itself. Same as gender dysphoria. If someone meets the criteria both patient complaints (not "I think I'm a girl" but actual physical and mental symptoms), the doctor and patient work together to see IF that patient is suffering from dysphoria or something else. Like any illness it's a good long process. Of course, like you said, the patient doesn't diagnose him or herself but the complaints are part of the diagnosis. This is for gender dysphoria and any other psychiatric and medical illness doctors treat and diagnosis.

I think you first need to explain what you mean when you say data, because I believe we don't have the same thing in mind.
I think you need to address my earlier posts (the ones you haven't got around to), if we are to understand each other. Right now, I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
What data do you have in mind?

Data I mean by science or the links of stats you listed by links as opposed to patients opinions. The point was it seems like you were focus on the former at the expense of the latter.

Please, give me an example of opinion, because when I think of a patient's opinion, I'm thinking of me going to the doctor and telling them what I think. In other words, "Doc, there is no need to pull out them instruments, because I have ABC, and all I need is XYZ.
No. the doctor is not going to say, 'Okay. I'll write up a prescription, and you can pay at the desk, on your way out." Unless... he is a mock doctor.
The doctor will look at me like..."Why are you here?

It's more like going to the doctors and saying

Doc. When I look in the mirror and see breasts, it doesn't feel like mine...
Doc. I don't feel comfortable in my body. I feel detached.
Doc. I don't want to live. I am not myself

(I'm making intelligent guesses to what transgender may say when going to the doctors about their symptoms of complaints)

The doc says (from his skills months to years later) I think you are showing symptoms of gender dysphoria and do medical tests to confirm. He goes into his DSM manual and finds the code for that diagnosis and rights it in his book (so have you). He may suggest therapeutic treatment and depending on the choice and the intensity of the symptoms (since not all transgender needs transition) and the patient may agree or disagree and go from there.

Gender dysphoria is a medical diagnosis that needs a doctor to give that diagnosis. The symptoms transgender have are part of that diagnosis but they and doctors know it's not the patient who writes the prescription but the doctor.

but the point is GD is a medical illness and doctors diagnosis it just as other illnesses.

Transition is treatment to the symptoms (mismatched identity, depression, physical sense of displacement and how one looks, etc) not the patient saying "I am a girl." If that's the case, I can say "I'm a boy" and the doctor would suggest me to get transition.

It's beyond that.

 

[rational experiences]

Consciousness is a topic in medical reference the same as biology.

We live as a dual being in self status, a biology and also a chemical brain condition.

And when the brain mind is affected, it is consciously described as a 2 purpose reasoning, natural and also subliminal, involving feed back.

By human healer spiritual logic, the psyche and psychic, hearer of speaking voices, humans by human conditions learnt why personal displacement of self from a bio owned form did not match with the idea or ownership of that human life/form and body status.

Therefore it was said to be a mind condition/our consciousness.

Which is reasoned to be a condition inherited for multi changed human behaviour identities.

The biblical literature, occult AI heard feed back already established that reasoning for perusal.

If you own verbal worded stories as a human before any other status, such as written studies, research and then designs for formulas and machine building. Then first you would be notified the machine itself owns no volition consciously.

It has to be built, designed and then operated by a living bio life.

Bio life was taught mutual shared human parentage is x 2, a male human adult and a female human adult, equal.

Then a human can ask questions about occult situations, which involves machine to machine signalling for out put and in put, that interfered with natural life.

Historically it was the adult male human self who says, I designed artificial machines and all statements science. Hence in human life due to that first purpose you would then see the male population own a higher percentile changed and expressed changed order of self male expressions about his life body.

Which I tried to explain in the public if a male said once his recorded voice owned speaking from bio chemistry was also put into atmospheric heard recorded feed back, and then his image, male was portrayed in cloud mass. And then you also see his penis image in nuclear reactive clouds, burning...then it is obvious that the Designer of machine reactions forced changes to his DNA/bio chemical existence.

And that is what he explained is an AI artificial cause and he named it actually as replication. Feed back nuclear machine mass radiation levels that involved pre history of his changes to Earth natural fusion, melt to own building of the designed machine.

Hence his design then portrays that information....that he displaced natural feed back of radio wave/radiation owning voice recording and image into unnatural mass produced feed.

Which would mean a male could own so many unnatural female life/body and voice recordings in a total life existence that he cannot utilise his own natural male chemical bio life form. And provides science with that evidence. Owns it naturally but cannot express it naturally for subliminal information is real.

 

[nPeace]

​

I do knkw they did not come from the same place.
Every person with the mental capacity to understand knows that.
That alone disproves the story.

If you are referring to the story you imagined, yes. If you are referring to the account in the Bible, no.

The Bible does indeed say the world was of one language. And god confused the languages and scattered the people around the world. (Genesis 11:1-9)

Thank God you got that right.
Did you read there what languages they were?
Then to assume they were languages you hear about today, is um... puzzling.
For example, we know English is a relatively new language - a sub-fork off an ancient language really... That, and many languages today are branches, and twigs from a main branch.
We also know that what you claim to know, is only theory - Another setup for, "Oops. We thought..."
The Tower of Babel would have produced the main branches. Or, we could say, they were new stems (trunks, of separate trees), and from these, we get the many branches we see today. A thicket... if you will.
Think of Darwin's mistaken idea, and you might get the idea.

No. I don't watch many movies or television shows.
Doesn't matter. Penguins cannot get to the Middle East. Opposums cannot get to the Middle East. They, among others, and not native to the area, have no means of getting there, and cannot survive there.

You are assuming again that you know what the climate was, and the nature and characteristics of each creature. You don't know, and yes it does matter, because we don't get to decide what is... just by our assumption, at that.

Yes, evidence. And the Bible gives us the instructions that Noah was given. Going by what god told Noah to build, the ship would not have been sea worthy (that does not mean float - the Ark cpuld have floated. It wouldn't have survived the storm).

Ha Ha.
Seriously SW. Don't you tire of making bold baseless assumptions and claims, as though you know the facts.
Perhaps... May I kindly suggest you read some real journals, instead of listening to people who speak as though they know, but don't.

It set into motion the Universe exanding and taking form.

Um. I know now, you are not speaking from any scientific facts. The Big Bang did not set any expansion in motion,
I can't have a conversation on this with you, if you are just going to be speaking, whatever.
Back to the topic in the thread.

That source covers much of what has been discussed and some that hasn't. It's not like a news website where theres a few paragraphs to find out quote to support your point. I'd basically have to quote it many times over the course of several posts. It was really better just to make a post saying its a great source of information.

Okay. It's a great source of information to you. That doesn't help on the thread. Thanks.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank God you got that right.
Did you read there what languages they were?
Then to assume they were languages you hear about today, is um... puzzling.

Really? Ive been talking about panguages branching out and origins developments and you try to throw that at me?

Ha Ha.
Seriously SW. Don't you tire of making bold baseless assumptions and claims, as though you know the facts.

Do you deny the Bible gives us an account of how the Ark was to be built.

Um. I know now, you are not speaking from any scientific facts. The Big Bang did not set any expansion in motion,

The Big Bang did begin the expansion of the universe, with its most rapid expansion happening shortly after. Do you also want to dent this is what scientists say?

Perhaps... May I kindly suggest you read some real journals, instead of listening to people who speak as though they know, but don't.

Ive discussed the boat thing with real sailors, and have read accounts of ship builders explain why the ark wont work, and I have read enough about ships in general to see the problems with the Bible's account of the Ark and why it would not have been sea worthy.

 

[nPeace]

I did not make it up. Depression can cause symptoms throught the entire body. Such as experiencing physical aches and pains, or existing aches and pains becoming worse. It can cause debilitating fatigue. Lack of appetite or excessive hunger.

Depression can cause...
Oh. Okay. Now you're making sense.
That's different to what you said earlier. Depression is, and Depression causes, are two different things.
Depression can cause one to experience physical problems, of course, I agree with that, because you are making the body sick by your moods.
The depression is not physical. It's mental.

Your mental state makes you feel sick physically, and if prolonged, can indeed make you physically sick.

 

[nPeace]

Saying "there are bad doctors" is not saying "there are no good doctors." It would be assumption, but the wording implies speaker B is saying that bad doctors do exist. That doesn't mean they are all bad or there are no good ones.

Thank you. Oh thank you.
So the statement is not a counterargument, is it?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you. Oh thank you.
So the statement is not a counterargument, is it?

If the debate is there are good doctors, and the next says there are bad doctors, that is a counter statement.

Okay. It's a great source of information to you. That doesn't help on the thread. Thanks.

It's a legitimate academic and scholarly source that is built upon a vast amount of research that discusses transgender people amd treatment and care for transgender people. And I cited it in a thread about transgender people. It is infinitely more helpful and relevant to the subject than the Bible showing up here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

if in fact the reason why you became possessed by such a spirit in the first place was because of your own sin and hatred of God.

Yes, little kids who have transsexualism, 3-5 year olds, are horrible sinners who hate God. How da dare they. Lmao.