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Mary, Jesus' mother

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
References in Revelation about saints and angels in heaven, surrounding the throne of God, lifting up the prayers of those on earth before the throne of God, etc:

Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands,
12Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction.

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 7

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore, “they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Not the deceased.

My question was directed at Charity, who quoted the verse that there is only one intercessor - Jesus. In that context, my question was this:

If there is only one intercessor, do you ever ask anyone to pray for you, or do you pray for anyone else? If so, how do you justify that?
 

Villager

Active Member
Reference?
'One of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." Lk 11:27-28 NASB

Greetings, you who are highly favored!
That speaks to the value of Jesus, not Mary. It says more about Mary's luck than her deserts.

Hebrews 11
... fails to mention Mary. And quite fails to indicate that any deceased person is capable of witnessing events on earth.

Of course, there is the example of Saul and the witch of Endor as precedent for communicating with the dead.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
I've always thought praying to mary (gaia/the mother) and other "saints" was a way to ease pagan religions into the fold, like with Christmas and all that, it just became a mainstream part of the Church eventually.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Do you ever pray for anyone else or ask anyone to pray for you?

Yes Kathryn, I do pray for others and I always cherish the prayers of others.
I don't know what that question has to do with the price of tea in China or the fact that I speak to God, the Father in the name of Jesus.

I put two of many scriptures that tell me that Jesus is the mediator between myself and God.

The book of Revelation is apocalyptic and is highly symbolic so I do not choose to use those scriptures to base my fundamental beliefs on.

Revelation and the interpretation falls into 4 groups:
1 Preterists, believe that most of the events have already taken place
2 Historicists describe events from Patmos to the end of time
3 Futurists use it to describe the end time
4 Idealists view it as symbolic. The over all view of Revelation does not adopt a certain point of view. You read it for the message and don't become enamored with the details.

I'm sure those who chose to pray directly to God are no ways any different than I, who choses to pray by using the name of Jesus. I do so because He definitely made intercession for me when He died on the cross.
 

Protester

Active Member
If I go to the bank and ask to open an account to the guy at the front counter, he will direct me to someone else at the Service desk. Why???? because it's not his job to open new accounts!!!
What is the role of the saints? are they there to listen to our prayers? Is God not powerful enought to listen to all of our prayers? I don't think so! God never delegated this type of communication to anyone, because he wants us to communicate with him, to worship him and cultivate a personal relationship with him.
I don't talk to my husband's secretary if I want to communicate with him, tell him that I love him and if he can buy me some flowers on the way home.

Jesus Christ said: “You should pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, . . . ’” So prayers are to be addressed to the Father. Jesus also said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.” (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6, 14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor.

Your quite right, a 19th century source put it this way:

American Tract Dictionary (1859)

INTERCESSION:

Christ’s appearing before the throne in heaven as the Advocate of his people, presenting his finished work as the reason why their prayers should be heard and their persons accepted in him, Isa 53:12 Ro 8:34 Heb 7:25 9:24 1Jo 2:1. In thus pleading for sinners as the one Mediator, his work is perfect; it precludes all help a virgin, saints, or angels; and will certainly prevail. The Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers is said to intercede for them, Ro 8:26, when he puts words into their mouths, and holy desires into their hearts, such as they would otherwise fail of, but which are according to the will of God and acceptable to him through Christ.


Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 ¶ For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever
.---Scripture Quotations Taken from the NASB

So, it is well that we pray for people --and one Christian's prayer is no worse or better than another Christian's--when it comes to intercession only Christ can do that.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Yes Kathryn, I do pray for others and I always cherish the prayers of others.
I don't know what that question has to do with the price of tea in China or the fact that I speak to God, the Father in the name of Jesus.

Here, have some chamomile tea and calm down.

My question is this - if Jesus is truly the ONLY intercessor, then why do you pray for others? Why do you allow others to pray for you? That's intercession - and you're doing it for others and asking others to do it for you. How is that not wrong, if Jesus is the only One who can intercede for us?

I'm sure those who chose to pray directly to God are no ways any different than I, who choses to pray by using the name of Jesus. I do so because He definitely made intercession for me when He died on the cross.

True dat - and when we pray for others we are making intercession as well. Hence the phrase "intercessory prayer."

When Catholics pray to Mary, they are only - ONLY - asking her to pray for them, as a fellow Christian, in communion with all Christians.

For the record, I'm not saying you're wrong to INTERCEDE for others, or to have others INTERCEDE for you. I'm looking for consistency. As Christians, we either can or can't intercede in prayer for others (making us an Intercessor). Which is it? How can we be an Intercessor if Jesus is the ony one?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I personally believe that it is wrong to pray to anyone other than God.

Prayer and worship are not the same thing.

Prayer is simply communication. When we pray, we may also worship, but all prayer does not include worship.

It is wrong to worship anyone but God.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Here, have some chamomile tea and calm down.

My question is this - if Jesus is truly the ONLY intercessor, then why do you pray for others? Why do you allow others to pray for you? That's intercession - and you're doing it for others and asking others to do it for you. How is that not wrong, if Jesus is the only One who can intercede for us?



True dat - and when we pray for others we are making intercession as well. Hence the phrase "intercessory prayer."

When Catholics pray to Mary, they are only - ONLY - asking her to pray for them, as a fellow Christian, in communion with all Christians.

For the record, I'm not saying you're wrong to INTERCEDE for others, or to have others INTERCEDE for you. I'm looking for consistency. As Christians, we either can or can't intercede in prayer for others (making us an Intercessor). Which is it? How can we be an Intercessor if Jesus is the ony one?


First of all No thank you for the cup of tea :rolleyes:
I believe in intercessory prayer, I do it all the time, I an interceding when I pray to God in the name of Jesus. Why does it matter if I choose to use the name of Jesus or if I just simply say Abba hear my prayer. The fact is I am telling God what I am praying for whether I say God or Holy Father, Or Divine God. How one choses to reach the throne of God is a personal relationship with God. The fact is I am praying to God not asking Mary, A dearly departed loved one or the Easter Bunny but I myself am asking. When I request someone else to pray for me I assume they will reach God in their own way....I don't care who prays how they pray, I only hope they comply with my request and pray....I don't care about their denomination or affiliation with any Church....I believe there are good saintly prayer warriors in all churches.

Actually when I pray in the name of Jesus to the Father, I am using the right as a born again, Bible believeing, blood bought Christian, which is the one thing that gives me favor with God.....
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.



What does the following statement have to do with the price of tea in China?

Why does it matter if I choose to use the name of Jesus or if I just simply say Abba hear my prayer. The fact is I am telling God what I am praying for whether I say God or Holy Father, Or Divine God.

Of COURSE it's acceptable to use the name of Jesus or simply say Abba. I never said or implied otherwise.

I believe in intercessory prayer, I do it all the time, I an interceding when I pray to God in the name of Jesus.

So you're an intercessor. Of course you are and so is anyone else who prays for someone else. So you DO believe that other people can be intercessors! That's what I thought.

So all we're really in disagreement about is whether or not saints who are already in the presence of God can intercede for us.

How one choses to reach the throne of God is a personal relationship with God.

Well, amen to that.

The fact is I am praying to God not asking Mary, A dearly departed loved one or the Easter Bunny but I myself am asking.

Do you realize that Catholics pray directly to God as well? They don't pray to the Easter Bunny either. But just as you ask others to pray for you, they do as well - including Mary, or any other number of other Christians.

What you are not taking into consideration is the doctrine of the communion of saints, which in a nutshell teaches that ALL Christian are in communion - all over the world, past present and future, living and dead and unborn.

Actually when I pray in the name of Jesus to the Father, I am using the right as a born again, Bible believeing, blood bought Christian, which is the one thing that gives me favor with God.

Catholics also believe in the Bible, have been born again, and their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus as well. They also pray in the name of Jesus to the Father - on their own and in every Mass offered to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Do they have favor with God?

When I request someone else to pray for me I assume they will reach God in their own way....I don't care who prays how they pray, I only hope they comply with my request and pray....I don't care about their denomination or affiliation with any Church....I believe there are good saintly prayer warriors in all churches.

That's nice - and not in conflict with Catholic doctrine at all. The difference is that Catholics believe that Mary is a good saintly prayer warrior as well.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
What does the following statement have to do with the price of tea in China?



Of COURSE it's acceptable to use the name of Jesus or simply say Abba. I never said or implied otherwise.



So you're an intercessor. Of course you are and so is anyone else who prays for someone else. So you DO believe that other people can be intercessors! That's what I thought.

So all we're really in disagreement about is whether or not saints who are already in the presence of God can intercede for us.



Well, amen to that.



Do you realize that Catholics pray directly to God as well? They don't pray to the Easter Bunny either. But just as you ask others to pray for you, they do as well - including Mary, or any other number of other Christians.

What you are not taking into consideration is the doctrine of the communion of saints, which in a nutshell teaches that ALL Christian are in communion - all over the world, past present and future, living and dead and unborn.



Catholics also believe in the Bible, have been born again, and their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus as well. They also pray in the name of Jesus to the Father - on their own and in every Mass offered to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Do they have favor with God?



That's nice - and not in conflict with Catholic doctrine at all. The difference is that Catholics believe that Mary is a good saintly prayer warrior as well.


Why out of several people who felt it unnecessary to pray to anyone other than God should I be the one singled out?
My stance is Jesus in the intercessor for me to get to God, the Father, In other words Jesus opens the door to the throne room and takes me before the presence of His Father.....He is not praying the prayer for me, I do that myself, I just want to mention Jesus because He is the one who made it posssible for me to boldly come into the presence of God.....That is why Jesus in my intercessor....No I don't think it is scriptural to ask deceased people to pray. I hope this clearly explains my stance on this. Anyone can pray to whoever they wish, it is their own relationship with God, and I have mine.......Hope we are cool on this, thank you end of discussion on my part.
 
I see no problem with intercessory prayer. As long as one knows the position of God, and His intermediaries, I see no problem with it.

The presence of spirit is always there if you allow it to be there.
 

Villager

Active Member
I see no problem with intercessory prayer.
What we need to see is what has been written. Intercessory prayer is not the actual problem here, which unfortunately seems to have been left by the wayside. The actual problem is a) whether the deceased can intercede; and b) even if it can be shown that the deceased can interecede, whether any particular deceased person can be said to do so. Both of these questions seem to have been claimed to have been answered by a tradition of infamous history, obvious usurpers of the real church, so it is necessary for serious scholarship to ignore the pontification of that tradition, and examine the biblical evidence. As has been shown here, that evidence actually tends to cast belief in intercession by the deceased as serious heresy; which is consistent with a tradition of infamous history, anyway.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
First of all No thank you for the cup of tea :rolleyes:
I believe in intercessory prayer, I do it all the time, I an interceding when I pray to God in the name of Jesus..
lol so you pray for Jesus? why would the son of God need your intercession? He doesn't need your prayer.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
marymotherofgod.jpg
Marymotherofgod.jpg
Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus tecum. benedicta tu in meliribus et benedicta tu in fructus ventris tua Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro nobis pectorribus, nun et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
lol so you pray for Jesus? why would the son of God need your intercession? He doesn't need your prayer.


Apparently you misread my post.....I never said anything about praying for Jesus. I said I use the name of Jesus when I am talking to God....I said nothing about praying for the Son of God....Please, really I'm getting sick of Christians nitpicking every word I say....I would rather talk to the atheists....They have always given me more respect than most of my fellow Christians.
Jesus said he was the mediator between us and God he has made intecession for us so that we can go to the throne of God.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Apparently you misread my post.....I never said anything about praying for Jesus. I said I use the name of Jesus when I am talking to God....I said nothing about praying for the Son of God....Please, really I'm getting sick of Christians nitpicking every word I say....I would rather talk to the atheists....They have always given me more respect than most of my fellow Christians.
Jesus said he was the mediator between us and God he has made intecession for us so that we can go to the throne of God.
Ohhhh yeah, I am the disrespectful one lol

Anyway, I quoted you saying you believe in intercessory prayer, and then mentioned praying in the name of Jesus. Thats not intercessory prayer unless your praying for Jesus.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Ohhhh yeah, I am the disrespectful one lol

Anyway, I quoted you saying you believe in intercessory prayer, and then mentioned praying in the name of Jesus. Thats not intercessory prayer unless your praying for Jesus.
Jesus is the one making intercession.
Romans
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
 
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