Mary, Jesus' mother

[Kathryn]

It's tiresome trying to converse with you. Can you please drop the excess verbage and speak plainly?

It's not that I can't understand you - but reading your sentences is sort of like trying to swim through caramel.

But I digress.

Votive candles - those are used in all sorts of prayer and church scenarios, in both Catholic and non Catholic churches. Including but not at all limited to prayers involving Mary.

Statues - once again, all sorts of statues of famous people from the Bible are in Catholic churches. Not limited to Mary.

Rosaries - do you even know the words to the Rosary? And by the way, there are many prayers one can say using the Rosary. And none of them include worshipping Mary.

Shrines - you mean places where people pray?

Look, if someone doesn't understand Catholic doctrine, are they really in a position to judge it?

 

[Villager]

Can you please drop the excess verbage and speak plainly?

I'll try. There are 'net dictionaries readily available, of course.

If the Vatican was to get rid of statues, candles, prayers and shrines, folks would stop thinking that Catholics worship Mary.

Is the other version preferable?

Votive candles - those are used in all sorts of prayer and church scenarios, in both Catholic and non Catholic churches. Including but not at all limited to prayers involving Mary.

True, but the principle of praying to those other than the deity persists. It's not, in non-Catholic eyes, as though the Catholic, idealised Mary has much correspondence to the actual, historic Mary. The Catholic Mary may be considered a projection of humanity, and indeed of humanist values, in the eyes of others; and similar may be applied by the Vatican to other humans of the past, whose historic reality often does not convince historians of particular moral value.

Statues - once again, all sorts of statues of famous people from the Bible are in Catholic churches. Not limited to Mary.

The same consideration applies. However, statues of a supposed Mary (and they look nothing like a typical Semite) are far more common than all the other statues of humans combined. And 'Jesus' (who would not be mistaken for a Palestinian artisan today) is either nailed to a cross, or a helpless babe in arms. Mary, pure white, Caucasian, ever youthful, robed, bejewelled, crowned and immaculate, with never a sign of necessitous, mucky motherhood in downtown Nazareth, seems to be the one in charge, in Catholic buildings.

Rosaries - do you even know the words to the Rosary?

Certainly I do. The very word 'rosary' is contentious, at the very least. The ordinary greeting 'Hail, Mary' is given a meaning that is unscriptural, and is followed by words that are not found in modern Catholic Bibles.

And by the way, there are many prayers one can say using the Rosary.

The optional ones get worse, in the views of some.

And none of them include worshipping Mary.

Well, that's a matter of opinion, isn't it.

Shrines - you mean places where people pray?

A Christian can and does pray anywhere at all, at any time- can talk directly to God, with nothing at all in between, 'closer than a brother'. That's one reason why shrines are not Christian.

Look, if someone doesn't understand Catholic doctrine, are they really in a position to judge it?

No. And, in the experienced views of many if not all missioners to Catholics, in Western countries as well as Third World, most Catholics are in that very condition. Much time is given to explaining Catholic doctrine to Catholics, who are not infrequently surprised, if not alarmed, by the facts. Almost every evangelical fellowship seem to hold an ex-Catholic or two. Those who do understand Catholic doctrine are hardly in a position to judge it objectively if their occupations depend on preserving it.

 

[JacobEzra.]

If the Vatican was to get rid of statues, candles, prayers and shrines, folks would stop thinking that Catholics worship Mary.

.

Just because some ignorant folk like to assume things about Catholics, does not mean we have to dumb it down.

Plenty of intelligent people learn the truth of what Catholics believe and teach, before opening their mouths.

 

[Kathryn]

I'll try. There are 'net dictionaries readily available, of course.

By age seven, I was reading at college level. It's not your words I don't understand - it's that your style of writing is difficult to follow at times.

If the Vatican was to get rid of statues, candles, prayers and shrines, folks would stop thinking that Catholics worship Mary.

Is the other version preferable?

I don't think the Vatican is overly concerned about whether or not non Catholics twist their doctrines to say or mean what they clearly do not.

And no, your other version is not preferable.

True, but the principle of praying to those other than the deity persists.

I've clearly explained the difference between prayer and worship in Catholic doctrine several times already. I'm not going to repeat it again. But that explanation should clear up any misconception about prayer being worship.

It's not, in non-Catholic eyes, as though the Catholic, idealised Mary has much correspondence to the actual, historic Mary.

Not much is known about the actual, historic Mary. And once again, Marian doctrine is pertinent to Catholics - they're not trying to impress non Catholics.

However, statues of a supposed Mary (and they look nothing like a typical Semite) are far more common than all the other statues of humans combined.

There are as many "versions" of Mary as there are ethnic groups.

Mary, pure white, Caucasian, ever youthful, robed, bejewelled, crowned and immaculate, with never a sign of necessitous, mucky motherhood in downtown Nazareth, seems to be the one in charge, in Catholic buildings.

And 'Jesus' (who would not be mistaken for a Palestinian artisan today) is either nailed to a cross, or a helpless babe in arms.

Jesus was nailed to a cross, and was born as a newborn baby to a woman. Seems like historical accuracy to me.

A Christian can and does pray anywhere at all, at any time- can talk directly to God, with nothing at all in between, 'closer than a brother'. That's one reason why shrines are not Christian.

What a stretch! If Christians can pray anywhere (and they can), then they can certainly pray in a shrine, or a church, or at a wall, or facing east - you name it.

No. And, in the experienced views of many if not all missioners to Catholics, in Western countries as well as Third World, most Catholics are in that very condition. Much time is given to explaining Catholic doctrine to Catholics, who are not infrequently surprised, if not alarmed, by the facts.

Not many Christians fully understand every doctrine that their particular denomination or sect embraces. It's a lot of stuff. And most of these denominations have only been "collecting" doctrines for a few hundred years. Give them a millinium or two and let's see what they've collected - if they're even still around.

And if I was Catholic, I wouldn't "get my learnin" from a non Catholic.

If non Catholics want to know what Catholics REALLY believe, they should attend RCIA classes, which are offered in every diocese.

Almost every evangelical fellowship seem to hold an ex-Catholic or two.

Almost every Catholic church seems to hold some converts as well - so what?

Those who do understand Catholic doctrine are hardly in a position to judge it objectively if their occupations depend on preserving it.

Those who don't understand Catholic doctrine are hardly in a position to judge it objectively if they are "learning" it from those whose occupations or personal justifications depend on tearing Catholicism down.

 

[Villager]

it's that your style of writing is difficult to follow at times.

That's true. It's informed and strictly logical, and many are just not used to that. But I'm sure people can cope, with just a little more effort.

I don't think the Vatican is overly concerned

I'm sure that the Vatican would prefer not to have constant criticism of Mariolatry. Otherwise, it would not go to lengths to try to constantly deal with it- constantly, because few people are convinced by its argument, that looks like casuistry- to use a euphemism.

And no, your other version is not preferable.

It mentioned the efficient Ratzinger police action against women priests, of course. They can do it when they want to! No women priests, but a silent woman on a pedestal. Something strange there, as psychologists and other scientists have noted.

the difference between prayer and worship

Let's stay with your words, eh? And this discussion, eh? You mentioned 'prayers involving Mary'. Not worship. We'll watch the red herrings, and the verbiage, eh?

Praying to dead humans? Google 'Witch of Endor'. Maybe she's the biblical figure closest to 'Mary'?

Not much is known about the actual, historic Mary.

Quite a lot is known, but the RCC mostly ignores it, and invents a Mary, quite contrary.

then they can certainly pray in a shrine

Or they can bulldoze it and make responsible use of the land. Could well be a useful plan for all Catholic buildings, come to think of it.

There are as many "versions" of Mary as there are ethnic groups.

These days. Syncretism was a necessity of RC mission from the start.

Seems like historical accuracy to me.

Then you don't know about the bit in between?

Not many Christians fully understand every doctrine

How would a Catholic know? Mature Christians make very sure they understand everything necessary, and usually far, far more. Typical Roman Catholics are not in the same country, never mind ballpark. No exaggeration.

Almost every Catholic church seems to hold some converts

People mentioned in the parable of the sower, before the last part. A suitable place for them, indistinguishable as they are from the completely non-religious, except on Sundays for an hour.

Those who don't understand Catholic doctrine are hardly in a position to judge it objectively if they are "learning" it from those whose occupations or personal justifications depend on tearing Catholicism down.

Well thought out; but now you have to think of someone like that.

 

[Kathryn]

That's true. It's informed and strictly logical, and many are just not used to that. But I'm sure people can cope, with just a little more effort.

I don't stoop to personal insults, so I'll keep my opinion of your writing style to myself.

I'm sure that the Vatican would prefer not to have constant criticism of Mariolatry. Otherwise, it would not go to lengths to try to constantly deal with it- constantly, because few people are convinced by its argument, that looks like casuistry- to use a euphemism.

Oh, wait - I don't have to go into detail about your writing style - this snippet says it all.

But I digress. I don't see much, if any, evidence that the Vatican is going to ANY lengths to try to "constantly deal with it" (Mariolatry). Marian doctrine is explained clearly in the Catechism, for both Catholics and non Catholics alike to peruse. Have at it. Get your information directly from the source - not Chick tracts.

Let's stay with your words, eh? And this discussion, eh? You mentioned 'prayers involving Mary'. Not worship. We'll watch the red herrings, and the verbiage, eh?

What ARE you rambling on about? You are the one confusing prayers with worship, not me. In this thread, in my very own words, I've discussed and explained the difference between the two concepts several times.

Praying to dead humans? Google 'Witch of Endor'. Maybe she's the biblical figure closest to 'Mary'?

I don't have to Google the Witch of Endor. I'm familiar with the story. The attempt at an analogy between Mary and the Witch of Endor seems completely illogical to me. Please expound.

Quite a lot is known, but the RCC mostly ignores it, and invents a Mary, quite contrary.

Cutesy rhetoric.

Or they can bulldoze it and make responsible use of the land. Could well be a useful plan for all Catholic buildings, come to think of it.

Watch it - your agenda is showing.

Then you don't know about the bit in between?

I know quite a bit about the bit in between. I'm not Catholic but I can assure you that the Catholic Church teaches "the bit in between" on a regular basis.

And readings from the Gospels are a part of every Mass. EVERY Mass.

How would a Catholic know? Mature Christians make very sure they understand everything necessary, and usually far, far more. Typical Roman Catholics are not in the same country, never mind ballpark. No exaggeration.

Your blatant prejudice is tiring. So tiring, in fact, that I'm losing interest in continuing a conversation with you.

People mentioned in the parable of the sower, before the last part. A suitable place for them, indistinguishable as they are from the completely non-religious, except on Sundays for an hour.

You must be talking about MOST Christians, or those who claim to be - not just Catholic Christians.

Well thought out; but now you have to think of someone like that.

I don't have to look far.

 

[JacobEzra.]

lol every Catholic who goes through RCIA (every Catholic goes through RCIA) Learns the simple doctrines such as ones about Mary, and are made clear. As well as the doctrines about important things in the faith.

 

[Villager]

I'll keep my opinion of your writing style to myself.

Of course you agree with me; but you are right, we are not here to praise each other.

I don't see much, if any, evidence that the Vatican is going to ANY lengths to try to "constantly deal with it" (Mariolatry).

Who is unfamiliar with the Vatican's claim for difference between latreia and dulia? One can hardly miss it.

Marian doctrine is explained clearly in the Catechism, for both Catholics and non Catholics alike to peruse.

Indeed, there is attempt to explain it therein. How many Catholics in Peru peruse it?

You are the one confusing prayers with worship

Where did I mention worship before you did? Tell us, kindly.

I'm familiar with the story.

I mentioned it in connexion with this same topic a some days ago, so Catholics ought to have familiarised themselves with it now. They very rarely even know it exists. Mind you, so do most denizens of pews. No bigotry here!

The attempt at an analogy between Mary and the Witch of Endor seems completely illogical to me.

I can't see why. Neither did anyone else at the previous mention. Neither has anyone, in many years, to my knowledge.

your agenda is showing

Excellent! The agenda to end agendas is the only one to have.

I know quite a bit about the bit in between.

Then you know that the helpless ends are hardly representative.

Your blatant prejudice is tiring.

Or my claim is more credible than yours.

I'm losing interest in continuing a conversation with you.

You're running out of road? You've been reduced to groundless accusations of unfamiliarity with the RC Catechism, and familiarity with Chick, old RC saws in desperate times. But then RC theology was repeatedly asserted to be groundless, and worse, at the highest levels of scholarship, hundreds of years before Chick. Do Catholics not realise that, or do they simply prefer to ignore it?

You must be talking about MOST Christians

So the parable of the sower is all about Christians? What was that about readings from the Gospels?

I don't have to look far.

Good! Then you can readily tell us the details. 'Occupations or personal justifications.' I look forward to reading this erudition. There's no rush, though.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm going to follow my own advice on another thread, and quit wasting my time running down your rabbit trails, Villager. Your "technique" seems to be "switch horses while simultaneously running all over the map" and therefore not really conducive to serious discussion on any topic.

Not my preference, but I'm sure you can find others to entertain you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm going to follow my own advice on another thread, and quit wasting my time running down your rabbit trails, Villager.

:clap

I'm developing a rather robust ignore list. Sometimes I bemuse myself by thinking of it as a unique and unsavory Purgatory DIR where each member pontificates endlessly thereby aggravating the hell out of their peers. Yes, I know it's childish wishful thinking, but it's cathartic nonetheless.​

:clap

 

[Villager]

Those who don't understand Catholic doctrine are hardly in a position to judge it objectively if they are "learning" it from those whose occupations or personal justifications depend on tearing Catholicism down.

Now let us see, is there anyone whose pay packet depends on tearing down Catholicism? Perhaps. There are a few missions devoted to taking the gospel to Catholics, but there is no obvious financial reward for any organisation that does so, and volunteer help may well be required. Salaries are liable to be low, part-time and subsidised from other sources. It is anyway not as though all the world is Catholic, as it once was, and there are many other categories of person from whom one might 'earn a living' by evangelisation. It is many centuries since preachers had to inveigh against Catholicism in order to make their own existence possible.

Similarly, personal justification of non-Catholic faith can hardly depend on deprecating Catholicism. Today's highly pluralist Western society makes that completely unnecessary, particularly since Catholicism's own staff came into more or less severe criticism and even public scorn. Even before that, Christians had to strenuously dissociate themselves from the ill repute of historic Catholicism. Catholics are surely in a dream world if they think that ordinary folk, who may habitually speak, e.g., of "Christians, Catholics, Muslims," believe that anyone has to answer to the RCC, for anything at all. Except Catholics, and not even them, most of the time!

If Catholics can ignore the Vatican, anyone can. The truth is that the Vatican finally tore down its own walls the day it said that any 'properly baptised' has a right to be called Christian. It was forced to, because it had already haemorrhaged credibility with the public because evangelicals had gained too prominent a presence. It is now Catholics who have to try to tear down evangelicalism in order to survive.

 

[Gaura Priya]

[youtube]QWD1GD13nf0[/youtube]
Hail Mary song - YouTube

I used to love this prayer when I was a child.

 

[Kathryn]

Good grief, quit "talking" like that.

 

[Gaura Priya]

[youtube]j4olGuMBiag[/youtube]
Mother Mary (Hail Mary, Gentle Woman) with lyrics - YouTube

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

My grandmother taught me how to pray the rosary and meditate on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, through the eyes of His mother. Even though I do not consider myself a Christian anymore, I still have respect for the religion.

I might as well just spam this thread with Marian songs... after all, this is comparative religions thread, not a debate thread.

Or at least, it's not supposed to be.

 

[Villager]

Good grief

Yes.

Hail Mary, full of grace, fiction.

Hi Mary, who's a lucky girl, then?

 

[Kathryn]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. (Luke 1:28)

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God (If the Trinity is correct doctrine, and Jesus is God incarnate, and Mary is His mother...well, you get the picture!)

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. (The doctrine of the communion of the saints specifies that all Christians - past, present, and future - are in communion for eternity. Eternity transcends linear time, which is why Christ's sacrifice on the cross was one time, and eternal - covering all the sins of mankind, past, present and future. Because we are all in communion for eternity, outside of linear time, any saint can intercede for us in prayer - both those around us daily, and those who have gone on before us. Mary is favored by God - why not ask for her intercession, just as we might ask our own mother to pray for us?)

When one prays the Rosary, the focus is on the life of Christ. Here are the fifteen mysteries which are contemplated while praying the Rosary:

Joyful Mysteries

1. The Annunciation. Fruit of the Mystery: Humility
2. The Visitation. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of Neighbors
3. The Nativity. Fruit of the Mystery: Poverty (poor in spirit), Detachment from the things of the world, Contempt of Riches, Love of the Poor
4. The Presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Purity, Obedience
5. The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: True Wisdom and True Conversion, Piety, Joy of Finding Jesus

Luminous Mysteries

1. The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. Fruit of the Mystery: Openness to the Holy Spirit, the Healer.
2. The Wedding at Cana. Fruit of the Mystery: To Jesus through Mary. The understanding of the ability to manifest-through faith.
3. Jesus' Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Fruit of the Mystery: Trust in God (Call of Conversion to Messiah)
4. The Transfiguration. Fruit of the Mystery: Desire for Holiness
5. The Institution of the Eucharist. Fruit of the Mystery: Adoration

Sorrowful Mysteries

1. The Agony in the Garden. Fruit of the Mystery: Sorrow for Sin, Uniformity with the will of God
2. The Scourging at the Pillar. Fruit of the Mystery: Mortification, Purity
3. The Crowning with Thorns. Fruit of the Mystery: Contempt of the world, Courage
4. The Carrying of the Cross. Fruit of the Mystery: Patience
5. The Crucifixion. Fruit of the Mystery: Salvation, Forgiveness

Glorious Mysteries

1. The Resurrection. Fruit of the Mystery: Faith
2. The Ascension. Fruit of the Mystery: Hope and desire for ascension to Heaven
3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit. Fruit of the Mystery: Holy Wisdom to know the truth and share with everyone, Divine Charity, Worship of the Holy Spirit
4. The Assumption of Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Grace of a Happy Death and True Devotion towards Mary
5. The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Perseverance and Crown of Glory, Trust in Mary's Intercession

During the praying of the Rosary, the following prayers are recited:

The Apostle's Creed
The Lord's Prayer
The Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
The Glory Be (Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be. World without end. Amen.)

So - though the Rosary includes the Hail Mary, it's pretty easy to see that even the focus of this Marian prayer is the Godhead.

This is the beauty of Marian doctrine - it's focus always turns to Jesus. It's as if we look over at Mary, to see her pointing toward her Son.

 

[Villager]

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. (Luke 1:28)

What? A translation of the anathematised! Goodness gracious!

Let's go instead to the real deal.

Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour.

Luke 1:28, New Jerusalem Bible, Nihil obstat, Imprimatur, no less.

Computer software needs regular updates, lest it goeth unto perdition, yea, verily and forsooth, in verray truth. When is Vatican Inc. going to update its Rosary?

Blessed art thou among women

'"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous"' Mt 5:45-46 NIV. Even the worst pagan is blessed with the gift of life.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I might as well just spam this thread with Marian songs... after all, this is comparative religions thread, not a debate thread.

Or at least, it's not supposed to be.

And technically its tittled "Mary, Jesus' mother" so these will be appropriate to

So this will balance out that putrid bigotry from villager

 

[arcanum]

Does it say anywhere in the new testament to pray to mary??? No it doesn't, none of the members of the early church ever prayed to Mary, it was a later sympathy with the feminine goddesses of ancient rome that led to her adoration. Don't believe me research it.

 

[Kathryn]

Does it say anywhere in the new testament to pray to mary??? No it doesn't, none of the members of the early church ever prayed to Mary, it was a later sympathy with the feminine goddesses of ancient rome that led to her adoration. Don't believe me research it.

Don't assume we haven't researched it.